whistleblower on Church finances

[bsjkki]

17 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

?

sorry...wrong thread

[provoman]

49 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Wait... is it possible that the parable of the talents wasn’t just Edward Jones style investing advice?  Could it be that the parable is actually about taking the blessings we’ve been given and using them to enrich the lives of others?

Why not both?

[Abulafia]

7 hours ago, provoman said:

Why not both?

Because the author of Matthew concludes that chapter (25) with this..

 

"Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it

that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’"

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Because the author of Matthew concludes that chapter (25) with this..

 

"Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it

that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’"

I do not think that speaks against the parable of talents not being both.

I also do not think what you shared speaks  against accumulation of funds.

I do not know what EPA is for. I am ok with not knowing. I am ok with the 1st Presidency establishing EPA because the Lord inspired it.  I do not accept the claim about the 2nd Coming.

Edited January 1, 2020 by provoman

[Abulafia]

12 minutes ago, provoman said:

I do not think that speaks against the parable of talents not being both.

I also do not think what you shared speaks  against accumulation of funds.

I do not know what EPA is for. I am ok with not knowing. I am ok with the 1st Presidency establishing EPA because the Lord inspired it.  I do not accept the claim about the 2nd Coming.

In the UK, historically, and particularly pre-industrial revolution and in mediaeval times, there are records of alms houses, orphanages, and hospitals provided by the church for the relief of the poor and sick. The church also had a part to play in providing education for children... wasn't perfect by any means. Didn't religious foundations provide for the health care of the vulnerable and poor in the States before insurance companies came in and rocked the boat?

[jerryp48]

Its been quite a while since my last post here but I find it amazing how many folks have a problem with the church's handling of tithing funds.  If they were my financial advisor I'd be pretty tickled with them.  I'm grateful they've made more of my tithing than the amount I've donated.  I'm quite comforted knowing they've amassed a rainy day, scratch that Armageddon day fund.  I've paid my tithing even when the numbers in no way added up and I knew I would not have money to meet my obligations and over the years Malachi's promise has been proven to me time and time again.  There was a time when I would have killed to make the amount of money I now pay in tithing but its the easiest money I part with because of how it comes back to me.  I get it if you've lived under a rock and never were taught how the church uses tithes (how did you miss that lesson???) but now that you know perhaps you could acknowledge that that was your misunderstanding.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

In the UK, historically, and particularly pre-industrial revolution and in mediaeval times, there are records of alms houses, orphanages, and hospitals provided by the church for the relief of the poor and sick. The church also had a part to play in providing education for children... wasn't perfect by any means. Didn't religious foundations provide for the health care of the vulnerable and poor in the States before insurance companies came in and rocked the boat?

My understanding is that, what you have explained is the reason as why tax exempt status is provided.

[rockpond]

48 minutes ago, jerryp48 said:

Its been quite a while since my last post here but I find it amazing how many folks have a problem with the church's handling of tithing funds.  If they were my financial advisor I'd be pretty tickled with them.  I'm grateful they've made more of my tithing than the amount I've donated.  I'm quite comforted knowing they've amassed a rainy day, scratch that Armageddon day fund.  I've paid my tithing even when the numbers in no way added up and I knew I would not have money to meet my obligations and over the years Malachi's promise has been proven to me time and time again.  There was a time when I would have killed to make the amount of money I now pay in tithing but its the easiest money I part with because of how it comes back to me.  I get it if you've lived under a rock and never were taught how the church uses tithes (how did you miss that lesson???) but now that you know perhaps you could acknowledge that that was your misunderstanding.

I happily pay my tithes regardless of how the Brethren handle church finances.  The two things are entirely separate for me.

But, regarding your comment, I’m curious which tithing lesson taught that the Church would take tithing funds and invest them in commercial real estate, stocks, and failing life insurance companies?

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

I do not think that speaks against the parable of talents not being both.

I also do not think what you shared speaks  against accumulation of funds.

I do not know what EPA is for. I am ok with not knowing. I am ok with the 1st Presidency establishing EPA because the Lord inspired it.  I do not accept the claim about the 2nd Coming.

Applying the parable of the talents to this situation:  I’m confident the Lord does not want to return and find that the Church has amassed a trillion+ investment fund held by Ensign Peak Advisors. 

[jerryp48]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I happily pay my tithes regardless of how the Brethren handle church finances.  The two things are entirely separate for me.

But, regarding your comment, I’m curious which tithing lesson taught that the Church would take tithing funds and invest them in commercial real estate, stocks, and failing life insurance companies?

I meant the lesson that tithes are used for church expenses and not charity work.  I never really thought much about what the church would do if took in more than it needed to cover expenses but it sounds like its being well looked after.

Edited January 1, 2020 by jerryp48

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, jerryp48 said:

I meant the lesson that tithes are used for church expenses and not charity work.  I never really thought much about what the church would do if took in more than it needed to cover expenses but it sounds like its being well looked after.

Okay.  You mentioned that you found it “amazing” that folks have a problem with the church’s handling of tithing funds.  You went on to suggest that those who felt that way “missed the lesson” and should acknowledge that not knowing about the “Armageddon fund” was their misunderstanding.

If Nielsen’s report is accurate about the size of the EPA investment portfolio, I think it is fair for members to be surprised.  I also think questions from members about the purpose and future of this portfolio are understandable. 

[Abulafia]

I note that someone used Malachi to justify 10% giving. (I used that same scripture while on my mission to teach people to tithe 10%)

It intrigues me, nowadays, that many faiths use this passage as evidence God wants people to tithe 10%, but they ignore other parts of the 613 Jewish Law commands as somehow being *fulfilled*. 

 

The Malachi passage is also taken completely out of context.  It is an admonition against *priestly* corruption.  It was the priests who were misusing the 10% of 10% that they received at the temple (the other 90% being kept at local levels to feed Priests and the poor and needy). 

If we really want to argue that tithing is still to be practiced, then neither Jewish Law or early Christian Community practice can be used as precedent.  LDS tithing and its use, can only be justified as direct revelation from a modern prophet. 

Jewish Priests, by law in Israel, could not own land.  They were a full time religious order and they were to be taken care of by the people. That care came through food offerings. But the poor, orphan and widow were also to be looked after and provided for.

As Paul points out in his genuine epistles, the earliest leaders relied on the good will of fellow Jews and later gentiles converts. That reliance on good will is also seen in the gospels...and it seems women were an integral part of that. 

 

From Luke 8

 

"They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples."

 

So, the Didache is entirely consistent with early messengers relying on good will of fellow Jews and later Gentile converts.

 

What the Didache does say which may add insight, is a little contradictory.  One passage suggests that if asked by the needy then a giver is obliged to give (this follows the admonition of Jesus to do likewise in the coat/cloak verses), if the recipient is not in need then the responsibility lies on them in terms of God's judgement..he/she must be in genuine need.

The next verse somewhat contradicts this and moves responsibility to the alms giver...[1:6], here

the giver must let the alms sweat in his hands a bit and give carefully and I guess sustainably..

Let your alms grow damp with sweat in your hand, until you know who it is you are giving them to..

I think at some point the church leaders will need to consider sustainable ways of providing for the poor and needy. With $124 billion rising everyday, there is so much good they  could do in the world. 

 

Didn't Brigham Young prophesy that the church could cope with persecution and poverty, but one day it will have to cope with being unbelievably wealthy?  Surely that day has come? 

[Tacenda]

Why would Joseph use Malachi 4 from the Old Testament? Granted, I know several on here believe it is from God in the Doctrine and Covenants/Nephi, but it irks me that he would apply it to tithing. And I can't stand when leaders say it's like fire insurance, and that's why my MIL always says it to us and her grandkids. That's not how tithing is to be looked at, IMO.

Doctrine and Covenants 64: 23-25 and 3 Nephi 25:1–2...mentioned in this talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.

25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/mal/4.1-2?lang=eng#p

Malachi 4

CHAPTER 4

At the Second Coming, the proud and wicked will be burned as stubble—Elijah will return before that great and dreadful day.

1 For, behold, the bday cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 ¶ But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the dchildren, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

THE END OF THE PROPHETS*

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tacenda

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Why would Joseph use Malachi 4 from the Old Testament? Granted, I know several on here believe it is from God in the Doctrine and Covenants/Nephi, but it irks me that he would apply it to tithing. And I can't stand when leaders say it's like fire insurance, and that's why my MIL always says it to us and her grandkids. That's not how tithing is to be looked at, IMO.

Doctrine and Covenants 64: 23-25 and 3 Nephi 25:1–2...mentioned in this talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.

25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/mal/4.1-2?lang=eng#p

Malachi 4

CHAPTER 4

At the Second Coming, the proud and wicked will be burned as stubble—Elijah will return before that great and dreadful day.

1 For, behold, the bday cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 ¶ But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the dchildren, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

THE END OF THE PROPHETS*

Are you aware of the fact that the narrative found in 3 Nephi 24 and 25 took place during the post-resurrection/New Testament period, and that in those chapters we learn the Lord Jesus Christ himself was commanded of his Father to dictate the contents of Malachi chapters 3 and 4 to the Nephite scribes because the Nephites didn’t have the later prophetic period writings of Malachi on their own version of the Old Testament (e.g. the Brass Plates)? This means that for the Nephites the writings of Malachi were New Testament period revelations, in the same way that the Books of Moses and Abraham, though ancient, are considered revealed Restoration period scriptures. This means that the divine commandment to pay tithes and offerings found in Malachi, words solemnly spoken by the mouth of the Lord Jehovah himself, were being reiterated anew as a current commandments to the post-resurrection period Nephites. In other words, we learn from the Book of Mormon that the commandment, found in Malachi, for the Lord’s people to pay tithes and offerings was not rescinded after the resurrection of Christ, but was reaffirmed anew as an integral part of New Testament/post-resurrection gospel law.

In addition — and this is very important to understand and note — in the original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, the 3rd and 4th chapters of Malachi form one continuous chapter, without any break in the prophetic narrative right up to the last verse of what we now know as Malachi chapter 4. This means that in the original Book of Mormon the commandment to pay tithes and offerings, and the prophetic warning of the burning of the disobedient, were all part of the same continuous prophetic theme and narrative. I would imagine that the reason why in later editions of the Book of Mormon chapters 24 and 25 of 3 Nephi are artificially separated is because the editors wanted the Book of Mormon layout to follow the pattern of the King James Old Testament layout of Malachi..

Edited January 5, 2020 by teddyaware

[mrmarklin]

Why isn’t this thread dead yet?😱

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Why isn’t this thread dead yet?😱

• The issue hasn't been resolved.
• The Church's official responses have been vague and non-transparent.
• $100 billion is enough to keep any thread alive.

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

• The issue hasn't been resolved.
• The Church's official responses have been vague and non-transparent.
• $100 billion is enough to keep any thread alive.

If the prophecies pertaining to the upbuilding of Zion in the last days are true, 100 billion dollars is little more than a drop in the bucket of the capital and resources that will be needed in order to successfully build the new politically and economically independent nation state of refuge that the prophecies testify will exist at the time of the Second Coming. The prophecies also testify that the nations of the world are going collapse politically and economically under the weight of their own ripening iniquity.  So be prepared to rage on as the Church continues to amass the funds that will be required in order to fulfill the prophecies to create viable places of safety and refuge from the tribulations and storms of God’s judgement in the latter-days

Edited January 6, 2020 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 AM, Abulafia said:

I note that someone used Malachi to justify 10% giving. (I used that same scripture while on my mission to teach people to tithe 10%)

It intrigues me, nowadays, that many faiths use this passage as evidence God wants people to tithe 10%, but they ignore other parts of the 613 Jewish Law commands as somehow being *fulfilled*. 

I’ve heard others try to use the “all or nothing” fallacy against the teaching of commandments that come from the Old Testament or the Law of Moses, and it doesn’t work that way.   As I’m sure you know, tithing preceded the Law of Moses as did many other commandments (Abraham paid tithes to the High Priest Melchizedek, and Abraham was taught “the gospel”).  And in any case, the all or nothing thinking is simply manufacturing a false dichotomy, since the new covenant could potentially bring over anything that God sees fit to establish.

The verses in Malachi simply demonstrate how God gives blessings to those who pay tithes, whenever the commandment is established.

On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 AM, Abulafia said:

The Malachi passage is also taken completely out of context.  It is an admonition against *priestly* corruption.  It was the priests who were misusing the 10% of 10% that they received at the temple (the other 90% being kept at local levels to feed Priests and the poor and needy). 

When someone claims that a passage is taken “completely” out of context, it is generally expected that the person would explain, from the context, as to how the passage was taken out of context for the purpose the verse was used for.  Otherwise it’s just an empty assertion.   I don’t know which usage of Malachi you are referring to in this thread, but I take issue with your assertion that the specific verses of Malachi 3:8-12 are an “admonition against *priestly* corruption”. 

Sure, there are admonitions against priestly corruption in Malachi’s writing (verses 1:6-2:9 are to this point, and judgments against the priests are also mentioned in 3:2-3).   But you would be manufacturing another false dichotomy to assert that the entirety of the book is against priestly corruption simply because portions of the book deal with that topic.

The prophet Malachi lived around the same time as Ezra and Nehemiah, and so he deals with some of the same issues found in the writings of those two books.   The first verse of Malachi states what his book contains and who it is written to:  “The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi”.  Malachi deals with the corruption of the priests (as already noted above), but he also addresses topics that have to do with the people of Israel generally, such as the protests against divorce and intermarriage in Malachi 2:10-16, which is also a topic covered heavily in Ezra and Nehemiah (i.e. Ezra 9:1-2, 11-12, 10:203, 10, Nehemiah 10:28-30, 13:23-25).  Some of those intermarriages occurred among the priests, but this was also an issue among the Jews generally (i.e. Ezra 9:1: “The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites”, and Nehemiah 13:23: “In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab”).  And Malachi clearly indicates this to be a problem in Judah generally:  “Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.” (Malachi 2:11). 

Furthermore, the judgments pronounced in Malachi 3:1-7 (right before the tithing verses) are not only against the priests, but also against all the sorcerers, adulterers, false swearers, those that oppress the hireling, widow, and the fatherless (etc. 3:5).   Then in 3:7, we get the important statement and question addressed to the “sons of Jacob”,  just before the tithing verses:

“Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?”

The answer to that question was for them to start working on their tithing, because they had not been faithful in keeping that commandment.  Malachi says “even this whole nation” has robbed God (verse 8).   This is a rebuke against Israel generally for being remiss in their payments of their dues to the priests and Levites as prescribed by the law and not merely an “admonition against priestly corruption” as you assert.  This is further demonstrated by the tithing situations addressed in the contemporary verses of Nehemiah 10:10-12:

Quote

10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.  11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place.  12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.

So I reject your assertion that these verses are merely against corrupt priests, because the context (both textual and historical) proves otherwise.

On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 AM, Abulafia said:

If we really want to argue that tithing is still to be practiced, then neither Jewish Law or early Christian Community practice can be used as precedent.  LDS tithing and its use, can only be justified as direct revelation from a modern prophet. 

Verses like Malachi 3:8-11 establish that the commandment was established and practiced anciently, and they show that there are blessings that accompany obedience to the commandment.  But I do agree that nobody can accurately know if or how to practice the commandment of tithing today without revelation from God to a modern prophet.   The Bible wasn’t designed to tell us these things precisely, and the particulars of the practice may vary according to the circumstances (see below).

On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 AM, Abulafia said:

Jewish Priests, by law in Israel, could not own land.  They were a full time religious order and they were to be taken care of by the people. That care came through food offerings. But the poor, orphan and widow were also to be looked after and provided for.

As Paul points out in his genuine epistles, the earliest leaders relied on the good will of fellow Jews and later gentiles converts. That reliance on good will is also seen in the gospels...and it seems women were an integral part of that. 

By the time of Christ, there were basically three kinds of tithes in ancient Israel, and their usage varied from year to year according to a seven-year agricultural cycle.  The first tithe was to be given to the Levites, the second tithe was taken from what remained of the first tithe and was to be consumed by the landowner and his family after being taken to Jerusalem, and the third tithe was given to the poor (see: Mishnah Maaser Sheni).  

It is impossible to know from the New Testament text how or if this was followed in Christianity, because there aren’t any references to how it was carried out except where there seems to be an expectation that the reader is already familiar with the practice.   And you need to be aware that there were separate practices already in place related to the collections for the poor, totally independent of tithing, some of which were connected with fasting.  Isaiah 58 provides a perfect example of this, indicating that one of the purposes of the fast is to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; and when you see the naked, to cover him (Isaiah 58:7).  And in the New Testament there are designated collections for the poor that are independent of the collections that help support those in the church (i.e. Acts 11:28-30, Romans 15:25-27, 1 Corinthians 16:1-3, 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9, Galatians 2:10).  I see some of the passages in the Didache as related to this very practice.

The other issue to consider is that the usage of tithes may vary according to the time and circumstances.   Tithes would be used differently if there is no temple for example, or if you are meeting in someone’s house rather than a designated structure, and so on.   So it’s impossible to assert, without revelation from God, what would be the proper use of tithes today based on how it was done in a particular point in history.

Yes, we as Latter-day Saints proclaim to be members of the restored church of Jesus Christ.  But by “restored” we don’t mean to say that we practice tithing exactly the same way that they did when the main part of the tithes went to the Levite priests, or when the Christian saints were meeting in people’s homes.  The circumstances of the modern world-wide church are much different.  But what it does mean is that we have the same organization of apostles and prophets who direct the church by revelation from God, just like the apostles and prophets in New Testament times, and the modern apostles and prophets are entitled to receive revelation on how tithing should be used today.  So the answer to how it should be done now can only come from revelation from God.  And that’s the bottom line.

[Thinking]

16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The prophecies also testify that the nations of the world are going collapse politically and economically under the weight of their own ripening iniquity.

If the economies collapse, then $100 billion will be worth nothing.

[Tacenda]

The church lied when it took out words of President Lorenzo Snow. People need to know the truth, when it comes to paying their tithing and building that kind of nest egg. The church isn't careful in it's spending, IMO, they want members to be frugal, but are they? But they are frugal when it comes to paying funds for humanitarian means. 

This isn't new to most, and I've brought it up time and time again, but how can this be right? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng

Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "... I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..." Conference Report Oct 1899

Now the quote reads: Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..." Conference Report Oct 1899

Edited January 6, 2020 by Tacenda

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church lied when it took out words of President Lorenzo Snow. People need to know the truth, when it comes to paying their tithing and building that kind of nest egg. The church isn't careful in it's spending, IMO, they want members to be frugal, but are they? But they are frugal when it comes to paying funds for humanitarian means. 

This isn't new to most, and I've brought it up time and time again, but how can this be right? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng

Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "... I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..." Conference Report Oct 1899

Now the quote reads: Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..." Conference Report Oct 1899

Sigh.

From FAIR:

Quote

On the same page of the Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow manual that the author cites, we also see this quote from President Snow:

There is no man or woman who can not pay one tenth of what he or she receives. ^[3]

President Snow is not exempting anyone in the Church from paying tithing. He did not qualify his statement to exclude the poor or destitute.

The Webster's 1828 dictionary definition of "means" is as follows:

Means, in the plural, income, revenue, resources, substance or estate, considered as the instrument of effecting any purpose. He would have built a house, but he wanted means.

If we use this definition in President Snow's statement, here is what we have:

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has income, revenue, resources, substance or estate shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing...

In 1899, there were still immigrants arriving in Utah who had spent months traveling, not working, and therefore had no "means" or "financial resources" to pay tithing. Even today, a Church member who has no income does not "have the means" to pay tithing, and such will not prevent them from obtaining a temple recommend.

To paraphrase a line from the Disney movie, Pollyanna: "When you look for the bad in (the LDS Church), expecting to find it, you surely will."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 6, 2020 by smac97

[Metis_LDS]

One of the reasons there will be more peace in the 1st,  2nd and 3rd kingdoms to come is that there will be no money.  No storing of wealth in things like metals, paper, works etc...

Edited January 6, 2020 by Metis_LDS
grammar

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Sigh.

From FAIR:

To paraphrase a line from the Disney movie, Pollyanna: "When you look for the bad in (the LDS Church), expecting to find it, you surely will."

Thanks,

-Smac

I will think about this, but I do know Fair has an uncanny way of finding every way possible to make the church right. Can you give me some help on what they are saying exactly. Is it to protect the members somehow?

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church isn't careful in it's spending, IMO, they want members to be frugal, but are they? 

It is claimed that they have 100 billion dollars in savings. That doesn't happen if you are not careful with your spending and frugal with your finances.  

Edited January 6, 2020 by pogi

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I will think about this, but I do know Fair has an uncanny way of finding every way possible to make the church right. Can you give me some help on what they are saying exactly. Is it to protect the members somehow?

Funny how you so readily accept information from critics (who have an uncanny way of finding fault, even where there is none) without being provided context.  Yet, when proper context is provided, you are hesitant to accept the facts in full context.

Here is the contextual meaning of what Lorenzo Snow actually said, that critics are reticent to reveal:

Quote

There is no man or woman who can not pay one tenth of what he or she receives.

Can't be more clear than that.  What more do you need?

Edited January 6, 2020 by pogi