whistleblower on Church finances

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, why me said:

Most likely, the lds church has invested wisely and profitably. But should this be a surprise? It would be interesting if they would have lost money in the market. The critics would have a wonderful time asking how a true church can lose money in the market and go bankrupt. I think that this is what happened in 1837 with the bank crisis where many members left the fold.

The criticism isn't about how the church made so much money, it is about how they are using it.  And if the church had lost money in the market,  it wouldn't just be the critics asking how that happened, some members would also be asking for some accountability.  The Kirtland banking failure is a great example of why financial transparency, even someone like Joseph Smith, should be expected, as even prophets can make mistakes.

 

1 hour ago, why me said:

No surprise that times have changed since Jesus' time. And why wouldn't it. We live in a capitalist world now. Such a system did not exist in Jesus' time. Much more different economic system. Now it is all about investing and property. Invest wisely or perish

I sure if Jesus were here now, He would be saying "Blessed are the moneymakers"

/sheesh

[provoman]

8 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

I do not think that verse applies to following the Lord in the creation of a fund that has lead to a large savings.

 

I also do not think the verse that says "take no thought for the morrow" applies to following the Lord in creating a savings fund.

Edited December 29, 2019 by provoman

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The criticism isn't about how the church made so much money, it is about how they are using it.  And if the church had lost money in the market,  it wouldn't just be the critics asking how that happened, some members would also be asking for some accountability.  The Kirtland banking failure is a great example of why financial transparency, even someone like Joseph Smith, should be expected, as even prophets can make mistakes.

 

I sure if Jesus were here now, He would be saying "Blessed are the moneymakers"

/sheesh

The funny or not funny thing is, the church could do so much with just the interest made on 100 billion. It's like 19 million every day! According to someone's post on another board, $100 billion earns $19,178,082 every single day in interest assuming a 7% return!! So the church spends about 40 million in donations, so if the amount is correct about 2 days of interest? It's almost hard to fathom that right? 

That's why the church needs to be a little kinder when treating it's members at the ward level, and in the world doing good above what it now does. It could end countries with hunger, it could end countries being without clean water, and therefore death and suffering. 

I'm very grateful that the church can build the nest egg, but it's a double edged sword having it do nothing with just the interest on that money. And still have plenty for the work in the church. 

Time for the church to take a leap of faith that Jesus' words are where it's at. 

[provoman]

nvm

Edited December 29, 2019 by provoman

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, provoman said:

There seem multiple criticism from the brothers in filing the complaint with the IRS.

1. The creation of EPA,

2. its source(s) - to include surplus tithing, 3. its current value,

4. and how it has used the funds. 

I hope and pray the government doesn't get a cut of the billions, they are worthless sometimes, and I hope the brothers get a slight amount for their troubles. And the other money is prayed over on what the Lord wants. 

[Abulafia]

Provoman, again, I appreciate that it is a faith position based on your belief that the prophet is the personal representative of Jesus. If he has felt impressed to store up 124 billion in an investment fund then I can't argue with that, nor would I want to.

 

Have you ever read the Didache? The admonition for prophets and apostles to go without purse or scrip was seemingly taken very seriously.  These early travellers relied on first fruit offerings, and were expected to work if they stayed in a community longer than 3 days.  If they asked for money they were regarded as charlatans.  The power dynamics were completely different. 

 

If you are interested I can give references.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Abulafia

[provoman]

33 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The criticism isn't about how the church made so much money, it is about how they are using it.  And if the church had lost money in the market,  it wouldn't just be the critics asking how that happened, some members would also be asking for some accountability.  The Kirtland banking failure is a great example of why financial transparency, even someone like Joseph Smith, should be expected, as even prophets can make mistakes.

 

I sure if Jesus were here now, He would be saying "Blessed are the moneymakers"

/sheesh

The brothers list 9 "Specific Grievances" 

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, provoman said:

The brothers list 9 "Specific Grievances" 

Were any of those criticisms aimed at making too much money? If not, I do not see how your response is relevant to what I was saying to Whyme. 

[provoman]

30 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Were any of those criticisms aimed at making too much money? If not, I do not see how your response is relevant to what I was saying to Whyme. 

Two of the specific grievances, in part, are about the size or magnitude of the funds. 

And in the body of the complaint are derisive remarks towards the size of accumulated funds by a religious organization.

Edited December 29, 2019 by provoman

[provoman]

55 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Provoman, again, I appreciate that it is a faith position based on your belief that the prophet is the personal representative of Jesus. If he has felt impressed to store up 124 billion in an investment fund then I can't argue with that, nor would I want to.

 

Have you ever read the Didache? The admonition for prophets and apostles to go without purse or scrip was seemingly taken very seriously.  These early travellers relied on first fruit offerings, and were expected to work if they stayed in a community longer than 3 days.  If they asked for money they were regarded as charlatans.  The power dynamics were completely different. 

 

If you are interested I can give references.

 

 

i found a website didache.com; had never heard of that before, thanks for the reference.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Provoman, again, I appreciate that it is a faith position based on your belief that the prophet is the personal representative of Jesus. If he has felt impressed to store up 124 billion in an investment fund then I can't argue with that, nor would I want to.

 

Have you ever read the Didache? The admonition for prophets and apostles to go without purse or scrip was seemingly taken very seriously.  These early travellers relied on first fruit offerings, and were expected to work if they stayed in a community longer than 3 days.  If they asked for money they were regarded as charlatans.  The power dynamics were completely different. 

 

If you are interested I can give references.

 

 

It’s interesting that the author of the Didache takes it upon himself to dictate the qualifications for apostles and prophets.

He also notes, “But whosoever shall say in a spirit "Give me money, or something else,’ you shall not listen to him; but if he tell you to give on behalf of others in want, let none judge him.’” Do LDS apostles and prophets ask money for themselves or on behalf of others in want?

[Abulafia]

Bernard, the Didache is probably a text with more than one author, but its dating is between 50 CE and then up to the early part of the 2nd Century.

It's view of the Eucharist is entirely fascinating, but that's a different subject.

 

[Abulafia]

*but if he tell you to give on behalf of others in want*.. that's the most important part of the text you quote. *others in want*. If they ask for monies to alleviate the poor and vulnerable, like the widow and orphan, the sick, the blind... whole different matter...

That passage indicates that the admonition to take care of the poor rather than judge them for their poverty, was central to the early Christian message.

It's the crown of Matthew's message in Chapter 25.

 

[why me]

6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The criticism isn't about how the church made so much money, it is about how they are using it.  And if the church had lost money in the market,  it wouldn't just be the critics asking how that happened, some members would also be asking for some accountability.  The Kirtland banking failure is a great example of why financial transparency, even someone like Joseph Smith, should be expected, as even prophets can make mistakes.

 

I sure if Jesus were here now, He would be saying "Blessed are the moneymakers"

/sheesh

If Jesus were here now he would be in a totally different world. And he would need to deal with it as he did when he appeared during his lifetime. We live in a very capitalistic world. It is all about the money now. When people in the US vote, they basically vote for capitalism and this system is all about money, finance and investing. The church can put 121 billion into the system for the poor and withing a week, the poor would be back in numbers. The system creates poverty and wealth. If one wishes to change it, one must change the system. And this has nothing to do with any candidate running for president. They will not change the system either. If one wishes to change the way the church does business, one must change the sytem that it operates in and the globalization process.

We also need to remember that the leaders of the lds church are not getting rich from the investments. They are not buying private airplanes etc.

[rockpond]

37 minutes ago, why me said:

If Jesus were here now he would be in a totally different world. And he would need to deal with it as he did when he appeared during his lifetime. We live in a very capitalistic world. It is all about the money now. When people in the US vote, they basically vote for capitalism and this system is all about money, finance and investing. The church can put 121 billion into the system for the poor and withing a week, the poor would be back in numbers. The system creates poverty and wealth. If one wishes to change it, one must change the system. And this has nothing to do with any candidate running for president. They will not change the system either. If one wishes to change the way the church does business, one must change the sytem that it operates in and the globalization process.

We also need to remember that the leaders of the lds church are not getting rich from the investments. They are not buying private airplanes etc.

As long as church leaders aren’t getting rich and buying private airplanes, I’m satisfied that we’re doing the will of God with sacred funds!

[CV75]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:54 PM, rockpond said:

I’ve answered your CFR

Rather, it's of your own making, so of course no CFR needs to be met.

On 12/28/2019 at 9:57 PM, rockpond said:

I once worked for a multinational company with revenue in the tens of billions of dollars each year.  Every quarter they published financial statements in a booklet of about two dozen pages.  This is not a task that is too complex for our church. 

If that constitutes "common consent" and "all things" for you, then a booklet is merely an aesthetic gesture not addressed in scripture.

[rockpond]

55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Rather, it's of your own making, so of course no CFR needs to be met.

If that constitutes "common consent" and "all things" for you, then a booklet is merely an aesthetic gesture not addressed in scripture.

No, that doesn’t constitute common consent. I was illustrating that our church financial reports are not too complex to publish. 

[CA Steve]

12 hours ago, why me said:

If Jesus were here now he would be in a totally different world. And he would need to deal with it as he did when he appeared during his lifetime. We live in a very capitalistic world. It is all about the money now.

Good point.

I can see Him now. He is in a dark suit, white shirt, conservative tie and wearing a MAGA hat and the first thing he does is ask to see the church's financial statement. Because that is how true believers see His return.

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

As long as church leaders aren’t getting rich and buying private airplanes, I’m satisfied that we’re doing the will of God with sacred funds!

Rockpond, forgive me if wrong, is this a factitious statement or serious? Both are fine with me, I guess. 🙂

[smac97]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

No, that doesn’t constitute common consent. I was illustrating that our church financial reports are not too complex to publish. 

What are your thoughts about these observations:

Quote

Financial Statements – A Review

Since I’ve only seen non-accountants request that the LDS Church spill their financial guts (there’s probably accountants who want it too, I just don’t know them), I’m going to assume that many of the people wanting this change have little to no financial background. If you’re already a financial expert, feel free to skip this section, where I briefly review the secular doctrine of financial statements.

Financial Statements are a snapshot into the financial health of a business or organization, designed to allow stakeholders (i.e. a person who has a stake in a business. Not like “Stake Boundary” stake, more like “interest” stake) to determine, on a macro level, the well being of the company.

Different organizations have different requirements for financial statements. For example, if you’re doing a personal budget more complicated than the “check the cash in your pocket” method, you’re going to have some sort of summary of how much money you brought in, how much money went out, and how much money is going to go out (i.e. debts). That’s your rudimentary financial statement.

If you have a small business, your financial statements help you make decisions. If you want a loan from a bank, the bank will almost certainly demand financial statements to help ensure they’ll get their money back. These kinds of financial statements generally span a handful of pages, from a couple pages to maybe twenty. The information contained therein is basically never released to the public, because, frankly, it’s none of the public’s business (literally).

Sliding that size scale all the way to 11, let’s look at large, publicly traded corporations. Their financial statements are required by law, must follow certain prescribed rules (GAAP in the US), and tend to run into the hundreds of pages. Despite rivaling War and Peace in length, the statements are designed to say the very bare minimum, and not a word more, to give investors a snapshot into the company’s past performance.

Keep in mind that financial statements are at a painfully high level. Ask any auditor and they’ll tell you the same thing until they’re blue in the face. It doesn’t tell most of the transactions. It’s not a blueprint on how to run a company. It’s not designed to detect fraud. Although our accounting overlords continually add new rules to try to prevent the next Enron or WorldCom, neither a thorough, expensive audit nor the resulting financial statements are a guarantee to that.

So what level of "complexity" would you expect to see in the Church's "financial reports"?

More here (from the same link):

Quote

 

Church Financial Statements – What Would It Accomplish?

Okay, so you now know, or can at least pretend to know, what a financial statement is. Here’s where I’m having problems: what would publicly releasing the LDS Church’s financial statements accomplish?

Before you answer that, want to see what you’ll be getting? I found the financial statements for the Episcopal Church, which happened to be put together by my former employer. Go ahead, read through the 2013 report.

So what did you learn? I learned that the Episcopal Church is financially sound right now. And…that’s about it.

How much do they donate to the poor? How much to give in foreign relief? How much do they use on buildings? I have absolutely no idea. The best we get is this scant breakout here:

What do they consider to be “Canonical and missional programs”? Is “General convention” a euphemism for the priests heading to ComiCon on the church’s dime? And what’s with this “other” amount grouped in with Grants?

In other words, we’re almost exactly where we started. We know how much money they brought in and how much money went out, but they grouped their expenses based on arbitrary categorizations invented by whichever accountant implemented Quickbooks for them.

Unfortunately, their grouping totally fails for me, because those Episcopal financials don’t allow me to voyeuristicly understand how they use their money. Heck, it doesn’t even tell me how much they spent on Communion Crackers!

For them, though, it works. Their goal was likely to prove that they are spending less than they make, and on that point, mission accomplished.

If we were to get public financial statements for the LDS Church, this is about as good as we could expect. Want proof? Turns out the LDS Church has financial statements in the UK (required by UK law). And considering that I haven’t heard a single person mention how great it is that the Church practices financial transparency overseas, I’m guessing the number of people demanding US financial statements that know about the UK financials are in the single digits.

What do we learn from the UK financial statement, anyway?  Well, the Church brings in more than it spends, and 97.66% of their expenses are related to “Charitable Activities.” It doesn’t tell us the most basic things us financial voyeurs need to know, like how much is spent on those amazing red and blue cleaning supplies.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Rockpond, forgive me if wrong, is this a factitious statement or serious? Both are fine with me, I guess. 🙂

I find it interesting that I keep hearing that repeated:  the church leaders aren’t getting rich. I find that to be a really low standard with respect to the church’s use of sacred funds. 

[rockpond]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What are your thoughts about these observations:

So what level of "complexity" would you expect to see in the Church's "financial reports"?

More here (from the same link):

Thanks,

-Smac

My thoughts:  You can quickly gather the author’s bias by his derogatory use of the term “financial voyeur”.  He might be able to form a more thoughtful opinion if he sought to understand the reasons church members might benefit from understanding church finances a bit better and why the church originally published financial statements.

As for the detail I’d like to see published by the church?  I think we start with an income statement, balance sheet, and budget for upcoming year.  I think 2-3 pages for each of those would provide sufficient detail. 

[Jeanne]

Fundamentally, my biggest question is that if the  church is using tithing, fast offerings, etc for many good things, why would  they not like the members to know???

Edited December 30, 2019 by Jeanne

[smac97]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Quote

What are your thoughts about these observations:

So what level of "complexity" would you expect to see in the Church's "financial reports"?

My thoughts:  You can quickly gather the author’s bias by his derogatory use of the term “financial voyeur”.  

I dunno.  I think there is more than a little "financial voyeurism" underlying this story.

Perhaps he should not have used such a risible term.  But I also don't think his "bias" is any secret, either.

Quote

He might be able to form a more thoughtful opinion if he sought to understand the reasons church members might benefit from understanding church finances a bit better and why the church originally published financial statements.

Actually, "{d}etailed annual reports were the exception, not the rule."

Moreover, let's take a look at the heyday of the Church's publication of financial statements.  Here's the statement from the April 1942 General Conference:

 

 

 

Would you be satisfied with such "painfully high level" disclosures (which, it seems, did not include disclosure of the amount tithed by the members)?

Quote

As for the detail I’d like to see published by the church?  I think we start with an income statement, balance sheet, and budget for upcoming year.  I think 2-3 pages for each of those would provide sufficient detail. 

Okay.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 30, 2019 by smac97

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Fundamentally, my biggest question is that if the  church is using tithing, fast offerings, etc for many good things, why would  they not like the members to know???

In the UK, the church is regarded as a Charity, and so must file returns with the Charity Commission (not that difficult, and I was a volunteer  responsible for ensuring the balance sheet of a small playgroup charity was filed with the Commission).

What surprised me about the LDS filing is that about 4 to 5 million had been donated by UK members into humanitarian aid, but has just been sitting there in the bank for years.  At some point they'll need to consider worthy causes deserving of help.