Mexican ambush kills family in massacre

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

The Mexican government seems to be trying to fight the gangs while at the same time the gangs infiltrate and corrupt the civil authorities, police , military etc.. Nephite-esque

I was listening to Ether chapter 8 on my walk yesterday, and it reminded me of this situation.  There are some very sobering words there about nations that uphold any kind of secret combination, or about letting them "get above you".   Particularly in Ether 8:22-25.  

[blarsen]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is not since most illegals come in on visas and never leave.

Oh, how it must offend your delicate sensibilities. Prithee forgive me for saying a lifelong crook is a crook when he behaves like a crook.

Actually, I find it more amusing than not.  So typical of the attitude though, to misread those whom they hate or oppose, and to paint them black-and-white.  I should say, also dismaying at the same time.

Edited November 6, 2019 by blarsen

[blarsen]

16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

But we're not talking about asylum seekers. We're talking about drug cartels. Walls do nothing to stop the cartels. Bringing up walls and asylum seekers in the context of this thread is a red herring.

Walls are walls.  I first brought them up in the context of protection from what is happening  in Sinaloa and Juarez, etc., with the cartels, if not now, perhaps in the future.  Their added benefit is that they will deter a high percentage of people trying to enter illegally for whatever reason, not just asylum.  And yes, drug cartels do use mules/drug runners for runs across the border.  So, no, not a red herring.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Actually, I find it more amusing than not.  So typical of the attitude though, to misread those whom they hate or oppose, and to paint them black-and-white.

Well then enjoy a good chuckle. Have you considered taking up fiddling as you support someone trying to metaphorically burn down Rome?

[blarsen]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well then enjoy a good chuckle. Have you considered taking up fiddling as you support someone trying to metaphorically burn down Rome?

How could I not enjoy a good laugh??  The added sarcasm has the same effect; and as per usual, I see things just the opposite.

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Walls are walls.  I first brought them up in the context of protection from what is happening  in Sinaloa and Juarez, etc., with the cartels, if not now, perhaps in the future.  Their added benefit is that they will deter a high percentage of people trying to enter illegally for whatever reason, not just asylum.  And yes, drug cartels do use mules/drug runners for runs across the border.  So, no, not a red herring.

No, no, no, walls would not work.  They would just start carrying ladders and get really good at getting over a wall with them.

 

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Walls are walls.  I first brought them up in the context of protection from what is happening  in Sinaloa and Juarez, etc., with the cartels, if not now, perhaps in the future.  Their added benefit is that they will deter a high percentage of people trying to enter illegally for whatever reason, not just asylum.  And yes, drug cartels do use mules/drug runners for runs across the border.  So, no, not a red herring.

Added benefit? No one has even shown a basic benefit. People desperate or even very interested in crossing will not be deterred at all. Who is designed to stop? Some idiot who ate too many paint chips, decided to go to the US, comes and sees the wall and thinks it is big and beautiful and high, shrugs, and decides to go home. So we stop the mentally disabled?

[blarsen]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, no, no, walls would not work.  They would just start carrying ladders and get really good at getting over a wall with them

 

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, no, no, walls would not work.  They would just start carrying ladders and get really good at getting over a wall with them.

 

Oh, I don't know.  Give this a read:    https://metro.co.uk/2018/01/19/height-trumps-mexico-border-wall-make-near-impossible-scale-tests-confirm-7243438/

Plus your example shows multiple slots they stage from.     Any wall isn't going to provide these.  😁

•  

Edited November 6, 2019 by blarsen

[blarsen]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Added benefit? No one has even shown a basic benefit. People desperate or even very interested in crossing will not be deterred at all. Who is designed to stop? Some idiot who ate too many paint chips, decided to go to the US, comes and sees the wall and thinks it is big and beautiful and high, shrugs, and decides to go home. So we stop the mentally disabled?

Read the link I provided Ahab, above.  Have you ever rock-climbed or used high ladders/scaffolding?

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Oh, I don't know.  Give this a read:    https://metro.co.uk/2018/01/19/height-trumps-mexico-border-wall-make-near-impossible-scale-tests-confirm-7243438/

Plus your example shows multiple slots they stage from.     Any wall isn't going to provide these.  😁

•  

Not impressed. The ladder still works. One person climbs up and with basic tools could rig up a rope ladder hanging on both sides. I could build an explosive at home that could breach it too. It might work if you man the wall but that means militarizing the border and becoming East Germany. If you build it right on the border too you then face the problem of being able to apprehend anyone damaging it. Everyone forgets that George W Bush built fencing along large stretches of the border and it seemed to accomplish nothing. Making it taller and thicker is not going to change it.

That being said while I believe it is futile to build the stupid thing I am not opposed to it as soon as the Trump’s promised financial backer of the wall ponies up the cash Trump promised on its behalf. How long is it going to take for Mexico’s check to clear the bank? It has been over two years.

[strappinglad]

Around most moderate to high end homes in Central America there is a tall wall topped by sharp glass shards .The windows of most homes have iron bars on them. Most of these precautions are there just to slow down robbers until the guard dogs get to them. Walls are not meant to be the ' stop anything and everything solution ", but a first line of defence...oh I just recognized the connection...    " de plane … de plane ! "       " de fence … de fence " Sorry, ...

[Ahab]

45 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Oh, I don't know.  Give this a read:    https://metro.co.uk/2018/01/19/height-trumps-mexico-border-wall-make-near-impossible-scale-tests-confirm-7243438/

Plus your example shows multiple slots they stage from.     Any wall isn't going to provide these.  😁

•  

Still under development but give them more time, and the need, and they'll eventually figure it out...

 

 

Here we go, this guy is getting a little closer to what they would actually want to use....

 

 

 

 

... unless they had a lot of money and wanted to use an airplane or a helicopter or even a boat, instead.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Ahab

[Avatar4321]

On 11/5/2019 at 8:36 AM, Jake Starkey said:

Horrifying.  Polygamy is immaterial to the story.

Agreed but it's almost all the media is talking about

[Calm]

I am not seeing much about polygamy myself yet. It is mentioned only in passing, identifying them as separate from the mainstream Church, which seems appropriate to me if their religion is brought into it at all. 

Added later:  not surprisingly the Trib has an article with the details of the history though even there polygamy is not as front and center as I would have expected.  I wonder if sympathy for the victims is leading to less play of ‘they are weird cultist’ sensationalism.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/11/05/victims-mexico-killings/

CNN’s reports have the theories as to the why and who being all over the place. That there are so many possibles that can be considered as willing to do this...the world is a tragic place 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html

Edited November 6, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not seeing much about polygamy myself yet. It is mentioned only in passing, identifying them as separate from the mainstream Church, which seems appropriate to me if their religion is brought into it at all. 

Added later:  not surprisingly the Trib has an article with the details of the history though even there polygamy is not as front and center as I would have expected.  I wonder if sympathy for the victims is leading to less play of ‘they are weird cultist’ sensationalism.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/11/05/victims-mexico-killings/

CNN’s reports have the theories as to the why and who being all over the place. That there are so many possibles that can be considered as willing to do this...the world is a tragic place 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html

It's no wonder the Mexican's want to cross over to the US. 

Such beautiful families, that girl that went for help is so incredible. I thought it was the brother that went, maybe both did. 

I listened to the local news today on the radio and they interviewed a man that worked in the department that saw this on a daily basis. He said that they skin people alive, cut their heads off and put in boxes and so many other horrifc things. 

I hope this is a start to rage war on the cartel and eradicate them.

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Agreed but it's almost all the media is talking about

Yes, unfortunately.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Such beautiful families, that girl that went for help is so incredible. I thought it was the brother that went, maybe both did. 

Both went.  The boy went first and eventually reached help after 6 hours of walking iirc  (uncles and the police), but after several hours of waiting the girl got worried he hadn't made it and took off herself to get help, but ended up going down the wrong road and got lost.

Both were heroic.

Quote

I hope this is a start to rage war on the cartel and eradicate them.

By whom?  Have you read the stuff Mexico law enforcement has tried to do (yes, corruption has impeded efforts, but it isn't like they have been ignoring them).

Edited November 7, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Both went.  The boy went first and eventually reached help after 6 hours of walking iirc  (uncles and the police), but after several hours of waiting the girl got worried he hadn't made it and took off herself to get help, but ended up going down the wrong road and got lost.

Both were heroic.

By whom?  Have you read the stuff Mexico law enforcement has tried to do (yes, corruption has impeded efforts, but it isn't like they have been ignoring them).

I wish Mexico would allow the US in. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish Mexico would allow the US in. 

Do you know of examples where longterm this has helped?

Would the US ever consider letting someone else's troops in, such as Mexicans chasing those going across US borders?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Calm

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The President should not be publicly venting his emotional first response. It was an insult to Mexico.

I would have been far less polite if I were Obrador to the doofus undermining any attempt by me to solve the problem. The tweet itself already did the damage by implying weakness. I am guessing our President is too stupid to realize the implications of what he was saying and genuinely thought he was being helpful.

You know, if there was a terrible earthquake in Mexico, DJT's emotional first response would be an offer to send aid. Would that be an insult to Mexico, too? I don't necessarily want US troops sent to Mexico, but it's clear Mexico's own military can't cope with the problem.

This isn't a political thread. Can we just leave our irrational hatred of Trump on Facebook and Twitter, where it belongs?

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

This isn't a political thread. Can we just leave our irrational hatred of Trump on Facebook and Twitter, where it belongs?

Seriously. 

Get enough of the left/right garbage every time we turn on the tv or go online.  Don't need it here too.

[Jake Starkey]

The dislike and fear of Trump remains well founded, and no one can dismiss it as if he has not created a terrible problem for his fellow citizens.

Mexican gangsters operating on and over the borders in both countries outside of the normal law enforcement procedure exacerbate the problem tremendously.

This is not war time where cartel women and children could be interned, hostages taken and shot in reprisal for actions such as has happened, and drumhead courts-martial could be held and the bad guys summarily condemned and shot.

We are in a civilian world of law that is not dealing adequately with the issues.

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You know, if there was a terrible earthquake in Mexico, DJT's emotional first response would be an offer to send aid. Would that be an insult to Mexico, too? I don't necessarily want US troops sent to Mexico, but it's clear Mexico's own military can't cope with the problem.

This isn't a political thread. Can we just leave our irrational hatred of Trump on Facebook and Twitter, where it belongs?

As long as rational criticism is not lumped together with it. 

Given the amount of energy the POTUS has used and exploited on the problems of the Southern border, one should be able expect a more intelligent response to this tragedy and a more intelligent approach overall. But that is not the case.

It is concerning that he will very predictably use this story to foment increasing irrational hatred and more harmful policies and state-sanctioned cruelty. I wish he'd be more open to the immigrant-sympathetic views like those expressed by church leaders.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

As long as rational criticism is not lumped together with it. 

Given the amount of energy the POTUS has used and exploited on the problems of the Southern border, one should be able expect a more intelligent response to this tragedy and a more intelligent approach overall. But that is not the case.

It is concerning that he will very predictably use this story to foment increasing irrational hatred and more harmful policies and state-sanctioned cruelty. I wish he'd be more open to the immigrant-sympathetic views like those expressed by church leaders.

It's concerning that his opponents predictably use the same stories to foment increasing irrational hatred of another sort while promoting harmful policies and even more cruelty.  It's not a matter of being sympathetic to immigrants (I am myself an immigrant, to the UK), but stopping illegal immigration. That's where this gets ridiculous, equating those who cross borders illegally with those who do so legally.  Of course, even illegal immigrants must be treated with humanity, but not encouraged to break the law, and not treated like they did nothing wrong.  If I had come to the UK on a tourist visa and then overstayed it, I would have been wrong to do so, and the UK government would have been right to send me back to the US.  I am sympathetic to those who cross the US border illegally because their own countries are cesspits (why the heck do they try to get to the US, after all?), but the solution is to fix the problems at home, not run away from them.  I'm sorry, but just because the rest of the world is a horror show, and escape to the US is seen as the only solution to some people, it doesn't make it right to break the law.

Do you still want to carry on talking politics and get this thread closed?

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Seriously. 

Get enough of the left/right garbage every time we turn on the tv or go online.  Don't need it here too.

Absolutely.