Mexican ambush kills family in massacre

[Meadowchik]

Lindsay Hansen Park wrote a brief guest post on the LeBaron Mormons in Mexico:

Excerpt:

"Many of the citizens of the Mormon Colonies are members of a variety of different Mormon churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to independently practicing Mormon polygamists. Some practice plural marriage and others believe in the principle but don’t practice it, though they all trace their presence in Mexico to it.

In response to the violence surrounding them, the families have learned to cooperate together to protect themselves. Although gun ownership is typically illegal for most Mexican citizens, the groups have worked out arrangements with local officials that allow them to defend their communities. 

The limits of those protections came to a head in 2009, when Mormon families of the same LeBaron name were targeted by drug cartels. Several kidnapping attempts from cartel members for ransom eventually led to the brutal beating and death of Benjamin LeBaron, an activist who was determined to work with government officials to protect his community.

The Mormons who inhabit the area have farmed large pecan and fruit orchards for generations. These farms are both lucrative and well-organized. Because of their success and their proximity to the border, they have become a target for guerrilla-style tactics by warring drug lords in the area. Many of the colonies’ adult family members have publicly denounced cartel tactics and refused to submit to extortion and harassment...which is likely why three innocent women and six of their children were attacked and gunned down, their SUVs and car seats riddled with bullet holes on Monday (Nov. 4) while the individuals traveled to a family wedding.

The hard reality for the majority of those touched closely by this tragedy is that they are Mormon families, striving to live their religion quietly with little help from the communities that surround them. They are people whose convictions are deeply entrenched and who have chosen to fight for the lands they’ve sacrificed hard for, no matter the cost. This week the cost was high and horrifying."

https://religionnews.com/2019/11/07/no-the-mormon-polygamists-in-mexico-are-not-part-of-ervil-lebarons-church/

[rodheadlee]

So yeah bring in the Special Forces 

 

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Not so. Plenty of barking dogs attack without good cause.

It's a metaphor, Meadowchik.  Not meant to be taken literally.  Related to the old "all bark and no bite".  Which means "Full of talk that is more threatening or impressive than that which one can or will actually do."

The one time he had a chance to do actual damage, after that US drone was shot down by Iran over the Persian Gulf, he terminated the retribution mission because he thought that the casualties that would be incurred were not proportional to the damage done.  I suspect that he offered US military support to Mexico while being fairly sure the offer wouldn't be accepted.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

What is wrong with Trump, Stargazer, is that he breaks the law, violates separation of powers as well as checks and balances.

I realize that Orange Man Bad, but the real false logic is to impute all wrong to Trump while worshipping at the foot of the Obama statue.  No president is without sin.

21 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Your equivalency of whatever comparing Obama and Trump is based on false logic.

Can't compare two US presidents?  Why not?  

[Meadowchik]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It's a metaphor, Meadowchik.  Not meant to be taken literally.  Related to the old "all bark and no bite".  Which means "Full of talk that is more threatening or impressive than that which one can or will actually do."

The one time he had a chance to do actual damage, after that US drone was shot down by Iran over the Persian Gulf, he terminated the retribution mission because he thought that the casualties that would be incurred were not proportional to the damage done.  I suspect that he offered US military support to Mexico while being fairly sure the offer wouldn't be accepted.

Um, I didn't take it literally. I called it inaccurate. 

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I went and read many of the articles about the Colombian cartels and why, Columbia is now a seemingly more stable country and what they did that helped. 

They killed the cartel leaders. The drug trade is still alive and well but not as centrally controlled. Because they killed the leaders, the drug gangs try and stay off the radar of their government and our government.

The government payed people to destroy their coco crops. But, the follow through has not been great and the farmers will return to drugs if there is not a viable economic alternative. 

Interesting. Apparently the splintered cartels in Mexico are harder to manage for its government. One of the systemic variables connecting the US to Mexican cartels is that illegal US firearms trafficking provides a majority of their firearms. Chances are that American-made weapons were used to kill these women and children. There are some legal loopholes that make it easier for cartels to obtain American weapons. Definitely cracking down on the flow of firearms from the US into Mexico is critical to aiding Mexico against cartels. (And this requires more nuanced changes than a physical border wall or military assistance.)

[Jake Starkey]

What is wrong with Trump, Stargazer, is that he breaks the law, violates separation of powers as well as checks and balances.

Your equivalency of whatever comparing Obama and Trump is based on false logic.

Quote

I wrote, "What is wrong with Trump, Stargazer, is that he breaks the law, violates separation of powers as well as checks and balances.

Your equivalency of whatever comparing Obama and Trump is based on false logic."

Your reply is interesting.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Jake Starkey]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I realize that Orange Man Bad, but the real false logic is to impute all wrong to Trump while worshipping at the foot of the Obama statue.  No president is without sin.

Can't compare two US presidents?  Why not?  

deleted

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Calm]

22 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I would prefer the politics get left out of the thread. 

The opening poster requested the politics be left out. How about showing some self control and if you have to talk about it, go start your own thread. 

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If they were members of the local ward in Mexico would that change ANYTHING in the story?

In that case why is their religion at all relevant to anything?

Why was there a colony of Americans living in Mexico among the drug cartels anyway?

I think the point that they were a break off sect of our church makes the point clear and connects them to the history of why the colonies were there in the first place. Historically the only reason they were there was because they were polygamist "Mormons" and not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I agree- I don't know why they had to mention it at all but I'm glad that President Nelson has made the difference more clear.

The way the media covered it, it was as if they were martians or something.

They weren't a family of US citizens they were a family of Mormons.

And frankly the way the world is that makes them immediately sound like crackpots in public opinion. I mean those are the silly people that go around and knock on your door and they can make a Broadway play deriding them and no one cares.

Who cares they were just Mormons? I mean it's not like they were normal people or anything.

Seriously to me I think that is the underlying attitude. 

I think if you have never been a non-member you would not understand, because that has always been a good word to you.

Being a "Mormon boy" has been something good to you not something weird, if you grew up in the culture.

I mean these people don't even have crosses on their churches so they must be something weird, and certainly not Christian. I mean I grew up believing that Mormons were people who worshipped some American Indians or something.

Edited November 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

In that case why is their religion at all relevant to anything?

Why was there a colony of Americans living in Mexico among the drug cartels anyway?

I think the point that they were a break off sect of our church makes the point clear and connects them to the history of why the colonies were there in the first place. Historically the only reason they were there was because they were polygamist "Mormons" and not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I agree- I don't know why they had to mention it at all but I'm glad that President Nelson has made the difference more clear.

The way the media covered it, it was as if they were martians or something.

They weren't a family of US citizens they were a family of Mormons.

And frankly the way the world is that makes them immediately sound like crackpots in public opinion. I mean those are the silly people that go around and knock on your door and they can make a Broadway play deriding them and no one cares.

Who cares they were just Mormons? I mean it's not like they were normal people or anything.

Seriously to me I think that is the underlying attitude. 

I think if you have never been a non-member you would not understand, because that has always been a good word to you.

Being a "Mormon boy" has been something good to you not something weird, if you grew up in the culture.

I mean these people don't even have crosses on their churches so they must be something weird, and certainly not Christian. I mean I grew up believing that Mormons were people who worshipped some American Indians or something.

I agree with all of this. 

Years ago I was very very proud of my peculiarity.  Then I learned over time that people just flat think we are weird. Ignorant.  Simpletons.  In fact I notice that we tend to be odd, outside of our beliefs even. 

When tragedy occurs people are relieved to find differences which separate them from such tragedy.  Were any of us slightly relieved that these weren’t “actual” Mormons? I was, for a second, then caught myself immediately.  My humanness disgusts me... but I keep trying. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by MustardSeed

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree with all of this. 

Years ago I was very very proud of my peculiarity.  Then I learned over time that people just flat think we are weird. Ignorant.  Simpletons.  In fact I notice that we tend to be odd, outside of our beliefs even. 

When tragedy occurs people are relieved to find differences which separate them from such tragedy.  Were any of us slightly relieved that these weren’t “actual” Mormons? I was, for a second, then caught myself immediately.  My humanness disgusts me... but I keep trying. 

This is why people play the “blame the victim” card. Mentally it is way to feel those things would not happen to you. It’s the illusion of control. The more victims are different from you, the least likely those things would happen to you. It’s a mental protection for people. 

And we need to fight those thoughts because they are a very common human reaction. 

Its why rape victims get the “what we’re you wearing” question. Surely, they must have done something wrong to cause that to happen. Those were weird Mormons.

Interestingly, I can’t remember which article it was, the cops and cartels will purposely try and falsely link victims to drugs so the average person believes they are not at risk.

The article from yesterday from the AP is still getting hammered today for “blaming the victims.”

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree with all of this. 

Years ago I was very very proud of my peculiarity.  Then I learned over time that people just flat think we are weird. Ignorant.  Simpletons.  In fact I notice that we tend to be odd, outside of our beliefs even. 

When tragedy occurs people are relieved to find differences which separate them from such tragedy.  Were any of us slightly relieved that these weren’t “actual” Mormons? I was, for a second, then caught myself immediately.  My humanness disgusts me... but I keep trying. 

And that play didn't help any.

Neither did our reaction. Can you imagine if that had been about Jewish people?

Cute little people that wear funny hats and "just believe"?  They go to Jerusalem in put on funny clothes and rock back and forth while touching an old wall

If Jewish people have been represented the way we were it would have been World War 3.

Could you imagine the anti-semitism furor that would have created?

Yeah we smiled and turn the other cheek.

I'm not saying it was a wrong response it just is bewildering to even contemplate what the right response would have been.

We don't even have a term for it we have racism and sexism and every other kind of ism but not religion-ism.

But I guess those Believers deserve it for being so weird and ignorant.

"Now let's get on a boat and save some whales, and devote our life to something that can give our lives REAL meaning! There are people out there being cruel to animals! Who cares about a bunch of weird superstitious religionists!"   

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I think the point that they were a break off sect of our church makes the point clear and connects them to the history of why the colonies were there in the first place. Historically the only reason they were there was because they were polygamist "Mormons" and not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Important to note that according to some of the family members there ARE Church members living in those colonies.  Not all are polygamists.

The families descended from polygamous colonies sent to Mexico by the Church before and after the Manifesto.  Some stayed polygamists, some are members of the Church.

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Important to note that according to some of the family members there ARE Church members living in those colonies.  Not all are polygamists.

The families descended from polygamous colonies sent to Mexico by the Church before and after the Manifesto.  Some stayed polygamists, some are members of the Church.

Did I say otherwise?

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Did I say otherwise?

No.  But in our haste to identify the colonists as not members, some seem to be forgetting that some are members.

[Bob Crockett]

23 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Important to note that according to some of the family members there ARE Church members living in those colonies.  Not all are polygamists.

The families descended from polygamous colonies sent to Mexico by the Church before and after the Manifesto.  Some stayed polygamists, some are members of the Church.

Is this really true?  Colonial LeBaron was founded in the latter half of the 20th Century after the French Mission apostasy.   The colony does not claim affiliation with Colonial Dublan or Colonial Juarez.   I suppose that members from these two colonies might have traveled hundreds of miles to live in Colonial LeBaron which has no policy or religious descent from the Colonial Dublan or Juarez.   But is there proof of that?

[Jake Starkey]

On 11/8/2019 at 3:47 AM, Stargazer said:

I realize that Orange Man Bad, but the real false logic is to impute all wrong to Trump while worshipping at the foot of the Obama statue.  No president is without sin.

Can't compare two US presidents?  Why not?  

The false logic is to suggest anyone is imputing "all wrong to Trump," when all that is is a weak defense.

[Metis_LDS]

On 11/8/2019 at 6:19 PM, JLHPROF said:

Important to note that according to some of the family members there ARE Church members living in those colonies.  Not all are polygamists.

The families descended from polygamous colonies sent to Mexico by the Church before and after the Manifesto.  Some stayed polygamists, some are members of the Church.

The very latest news is that they are all leaving Mexico for Arizona,  an 18 vehicle caravan has already left with more to follow.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

The very latest news is that they are all leaving Mexico for Arizona,  an 18 vehicle caravan has already left with more to follow.

That’s a change if all are leaving.  From two days ago:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/after-the-massacre-a-new-reckoning-should-the-american-mormons-of-la-mora-remain-in-mexico/2019/11/07/998ec2ce-01c7-11ea-8341-cc3dce52e7de_story.html

Edited November 10, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Long but very informative providing context quora response:

https://www.quora.com/How-did-an-isolated-group-of-Mormons-get-caught-up-in-the-Cartel-Wars

Author is Manu Padro (currently second offering).

Edited November 17, 2019 by Calm