Women as witnesses

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Hopefully there will be no changes on the bathrooms at church.  Portland is spending 200 million to get rid of public urinals to promote gender equality.   Lets hold the line on some of this stuff.

To be a little more technically precise, they are making more of the City's bathrooms unisex while putting a lock on the door so that anyone of any sex can use them, rather than having one bathroom for only men and another for only women.  That way there will be 2 bathrooms available for anyone of any sex to use without having to worry about one being only for men and the other only for women.  In large places there will still be separate bathrooms for each sex but additional bathrooms for either sex with a lock on the door for privacy.

I thought it would be weird before I saw how they work and it's really rather nice.  Just cost a little more sometimes to add extra bathrooms for unisex use.  And the unisex bathrooms sometimes have more than one stall so that both sexes can use them at the same time, if they want to, like when a mother would need to takes her little boy to the toilet.

[MustardSeed]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, and I am sure that anger comes from God and not, say, his adversary

This is likely something you and i philosophically will disagree on.  I don’t believe any emotion comes from the devil. 

I do believe decisions and rationale to act or not act are swayed by the adversary. 

I see nothing evil about a human feeling upset. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"Nothing less will suffice" doesn't sound like "a common cause."

Thanks,

-Smac

Sorry, imprecise language. I am merely saying the "common cause" of both movements (Ordain Women, and more faithful Latter-days seeking ways to include women in more things) is society's current emphasis on gender equality. That is why we are seeing the current changes now and not in the 1950's. That is, society's current emphasis on gender equality led some women to found the Ordain Women movement. The same cause (society's current emphasis on gender equality) led Latter-day saint leaders over the last decade to expand (whether of their own initiative or by prompting them to seek guidance from the Lord) the ways that women can participate (prayers at general conference, the promotion of ward councils, lowering the mission age for sister missionaries, and other changes).

Edited October 2, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[The Mean Farmer]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I'm kind of hoping he'll replace the water we use for sacrament with grape juice fairly soon. It may not matter at all to the Lord what we use but grape juice would sure taste a lot better than the water we use in our sacrament service. The water we use in our ward is from the tap and it has an off taste to it, too many minerals or something, not at all like the good tasting water I get from my well on my property.  But I suppose grape juice would get spilled onto floors and the pews and cause stains, which wouldn't be good.  May take a while longer to come up with an alternative which would be more pleasing to everybody.  At least the water from the tap in the building is included in the ward's water bill and is relatively inexpensive when compared to grape juice.

 

LOL.  You think people have issues with the way water tastes!  Give them grape juice and watch the line form at the Bishops door to whine about that!  

 

🍿

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Its great we have an out of the box thinker, but if we’re gonna start eliminating non-sensical policies like this we need get rid of ALL of them.

So all or nothing in your view?  Trying to understand. 

[SettingDogStar]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So all or nothing in your view?  Trying to understand. 

No, not in the sense that if they don’t remove all of them they’re “evil” or “bad.” I just think it’s silly to lift one policy and(which was put in place by Joseph F Smith in 1959) and make this immense celebration of it when other issues just like this get ignored.

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

 

LOL.  You think people have issues with the way water tastes!  Give them grape juice and watch the line form at the Bishops door to whine about that!  

 

🍿

 Yeah, well, probably so. Seems like we're getting more and more whiners in this world, but that's what I served and what the members received in the other church I was a member of before I found and joined this church and I never heard anyone complain about that.

Grape juice and matzo crackers!  Tasty!  I do like multi grain bread too though which is what we usually serve in our ward.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

No, not in the sense that if they don’t remove all of them they’re “evil” or “bad.” I just think it’s silly to lift one policy and(which was put in place by Joseph F Smith in 1959) and make this immense celebration of it when other issues just like this get ignored.

I think part of the celebration is the feeling that more is coming. 

I do not expect everything to be done at once as that would be imo more likely for some changes to get lost in the overwhelming process. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Calm

[SettingDogStar]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think part of the celebration is the feeling that more is coming. 

I do not expect everything to be done at once as that would be imo more likely for some changes to get lost in the overwhelming process. 

Well if that’s the case let’s hurry it then. Id something exists that is hindering others from having good spiritual experiences and we know about it, then it should be removed as quickly as possible.

I don’t think this change is damning or saving anyone, but it is lifting something that didn’t need to exist..ever. It hindered people from having some good spiritual experiences, even if they didn’t realIze it.

Edited October 2, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[cinepro]

Interesting that this announcement was saved a few days for Conference.  I wonder how they decide if an announcement is "Conference Worthy" or not.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Wellmired said:

Now it seems like that poster/commenter had a high number of posts too so that wasn't the reason.  So-- any ideas eh!?!?!?

Some posters are limited, as in not allowed to start threads, get rep points, and have a certain number of posts a day. I think that is all it affects. 

[rockpond]

Just now, cinepro said:

Interesting that this announcement was saved a few days for Conference.  I wonder how they decide if an announcement is "Conference Worthy" or not.

I'm guessing that this will be their new process.  Last April in the pre-conference leadership session, they announced the reversal of the Nov 2015 policy.  This time, same pre-conference leadership session, we got this announcement regarding women and children being witnesses.

Both were quickly followed by public announcements so that all members could know (if they are keeping an eye out for such things).

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

I'm not struggling to be happy but I dont see anything to celebrate.  Just another instance of the church being late to the party

 

Again though, you don’t see a reason to celebrate when a wrong is corrected?

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

No, not in the sense that if they don’t remove all of them they’re “evil” or “bad.” I just think it’s silly to lift one policy and(which was put in place by Joseph F Smith in 1959) and make this immense celebration of it when other issues just like this get ignored.

Opinions will vary on the list of unnecessary/silly policies. How do you know the other silly policies are being ignored? Perhaps they have long conversations and moments of prayer seeking revelation on those policies. We just don't know about it until they make an announcement.  Like I said before, Line upon line the church is growing and continuing to perfect itself based on the needs of the people at this particular time and the will of God.

[rockpond]

I remember the old days (back in the early 2010's) when we had to be concerned about having enough Melchizedek priesthood holders attending our youth temple baptism trips. 

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Why do you think God wants women to be witnesses (now) but doesn't want them to perform ordinances?  I haven't seen anything to suggest he doesn't want them to perform ordinances. 

I struggle to see what one thing has to do with the other.  We could also ask, why does God want children to be witnesses (now) but doesn't want them to perform ordinances?  From my perspective, it's because being a witness and being ordained are two separate issues and one doesn't have anything to do with the other.

As to the bolded part, arguments from silence aren't usually seen as valid, but one could say that the fact that His prophet has not o.k.'d the ordination of women suggests that God has not told His prophet to ordain women.

 

[phaedrus ut]

It makes you wonder the reasoning why they weren't before. Women didn't have the credibility to say "yes this happened" before?  It seems strange to celebrate being slightly less sexist. 

Phaedrus 

[SettingDogStar]

9 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

It makes you wonder the reasoning why they weren't before. Women didn't have the credibility to say "yes this happened" before?  It seems strange to celebrate being slightly less sexist. 

Phaedrus 

Right? Who was the first witness to the risen Christ! A woman! It’s all celebration and love, but its really just a round about admittance of a mistake.

[SettingDogStar]

28 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Opinions will vary on the list of unnecessary/silly policies. How do you know the other silly policies are being ignored? Perhaps they have long conversations and moments of prayer seeking revelation on those policies. We just don't know about it until they make an announcement.  Like I said before, Line upon line the church is growing and continuing to perfect itself based on the needs of the people at this particular time and the will of God.

But that’s the thing, a lot of these policies are tradition and not revelation. You don’t need a revelation and tons of pondering to fix a tradition. This one in particular was silly because it wasn’t instituted by revelation but it just stuck.

Joseph F Smith saw that women were witnessing for marriages in a temple in Canada and was surprised. He commented “ “Where the idea of having women for witnesses for marriages began I do not know, but my training convinces me that it is the proper thing to have the priesthood not only officiating but witnessing the ceremonies of the temple.”

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[Duncan]

38 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Interesting that this announcement was saved a few days for Conference.  I wonder how they decide if an announcement is "Conference Worthy" or not.

the gossip goose has honked and apparently someone at CHQ shared it online but deleted the post but you know how fast things go these days. What I do know for sure is that on Saturday I was at the Temple and this Temple worker told us that they made changes as to who can be a witness, but he said it was the missionary elders. I suspect then he may have heard a garbled version of it

[Buckeye]

26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I remember the old days (back in the early 2010's) when we had to be concerned about having enough Melchizedek priesthood holders attending our youth temple baptism trips. 

 

On my most recent youth temple trip we had a couple HS seniors who had just been ordained Elders and could perform confirmations. Literally the only thing the adults were need for was transportation (because church policy doesn't let youth drive other youth) and acting as the recorder.

[JAHS]

19 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

But that’s the thing, a lot of these policies are tradition and not revelation. You don’t need a revelation and tons of pondering to fix a tradition. This one in particular was silly because it wasn’t instituted by revelation but it just stuck.

Joseph F Smith saw that women were witnessing for marriages in a temple in Canada and was surprised. He commented “ “Where the idea of having women for witnesses for marriages began I do not know, but my training convinces me that it is the proper thing to have the priesthood not only officiating but witnessing the ceremonies of the temple.”

 

My point is that we don't know that those policies are being ignored. Many have changed in the past years.
Women speaking in conference and giving prayers in conference
Women's session of General conference
Women praying in sacrament meetings
Young men baptizing in the temple
Ministering replacing home teaching
2 hr meeting schedules
Sister missionaries wearing pants
The list goes on and will keep going on. Just be patient.
Joseph F Smith said that for his time and what he though the members needed at that time and it sounded more like an opinion rather than an unchangeable rule.

[SettingDogStar]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

My point is that we don't know that those policies are being ignored. Many have changed in the past years.
Women speaking in conference and giving prayers in conference
Women's session of General conference
Women praying in sacrament meetings
Young men baptizing in the temple
Ministering replacing home teaching
2 hr meeting schedules
Sister missionaries wearing pants
The list goes on and will keep going on. Just be patient.
Joseph F Smith said that for his time and what he though the members needed at that time and it sounded more like an opinion rather than an unchangeable rule.

I’m patient enough, I just think it silly to wait if they have a solution now. I don’t know what they talk about and discuss, but stuff like this is resolved very easily. A little tiny press release, an email, and update. 

[Duncan]

44 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

But that’s the thing, a lot of these policies are tradition and not revelation. You don’t need a revelation and tons of pondering to fix a tradition. This one in particular was silly because it wasn’t instituted by revelation but it just stuck.

Joseph F Smith saw that women were witnessing for marriages in a temple in Canada and was surprised. He commented “ “Where the idea of having women for witnesses for marriages began I do not know, but my training convinces me that it is the proper thing to have the priesthood not only officiating but witnessing the ceremonies of the temple.”

 

not to be nitpicky but Joseph F. Smith was dead by the time that Temple was dedicated, he died in 1918 and it was dedicated in 1923. I think they mean his son, then Elder Joseph Fielding Smith of the Twelve

[2BizE]

Can women hold their babies during a baby blessing? Could they be considered a witness for this?

I know we no longer have witnesses for baby blessings, but would this policy change allow women to sit and hold their babies during a blessing?