The gospel a generation away from extinction?

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If you are essentially saying there will always be at least one person in each generation who will be ordained to the office of high priest and receive the keys of that priesthood and proclaim the true gospel, thereby guaranteeing that the true gospel will continue to be preached, then I am afraid that I have no choice because of who I am and the kind of person I am to agree with you.

All it takes is one, right?

I don’t believe things will ever be so dire as to leave only one. That would be bad enough to bring on another general apostasy. 

On the contrary, I’m confident there will be enough righteous souls to continue the work of the Church in this dispensation, which is to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ — to put the infrastructure in place for that great event, as it were. This is done by preaching the gospel in all the world, organizing stakes of Zion everywhere and erecting temples to dot the earth. 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t believe things will ever be so dire as to leave only one. That would be bad enough to bring on another general apostasy. 

On the contrary, I’m confident there will be enough righteous souls to continue the work of the Church in this dispensation, which is to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ — to put the infrastructure in place for that great event, as it were. This is done by preaching the gospel in all the world, organizing stakes of Zion everywhere and erecting temples to dot the earth. 

I think so too. I was only trying to be a minimalist in my approach.  All it would take is one to continue the work on the earth, even if that one did not attract any other followers of our Lord Jesus Christ.

To play a more positive note I'll go on record as saying that I'm positive enough to say that I think there will always be enough members in each ward to fulfill all of the leadership callings in each ward, and in all of the stake callings too. And even enough for new wards to appear from time to time, and perhaps even some more new stakes.  I think all of the "Areas" have already been defined though and I'm not sure if there will ever be any more of those.  The whole planet has already been divided into all of the Areas we have, I think, so that means that only the number of stakes and wards would increase.

[Nacho2dope]

My moms family is not religious at all. My grandparents on my dad side were very religious. My grandpa worked at the church office and both he and my grandma served in the SLC temple for years. They served as senior missionaries after he retired. They had 5 children, none of them are currently active members. They have 11 grandchildren and only myself and my sister are active. I have talked with my sister about this and its crazy to see how close our family came to being "extinct" in the gospel.

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  How is "inspired fiction" superior to "pious fiction?"

Also, by "do not believe the events literally took place," you are also referring to the idea that Lehi and his descendants never existed?  That both the people and "the events" described in the text are fictional?  That there were no authentic/ancient Gold Plates buried in the ground?  That there was no Angel Moroni?

Thanks,

-Smac

I can see a distinction between the two terms. 

“Pious” or “piety” connotes religious or moral rectitude. “Inspired” can imply divine transference of thought or ideas. “Inspired fiction” would thus be writing that is not a rendition of actual events but nonetheless came from God through one process or another. 

That said, I reject out of hand the notion that the Book of Mormon is fiction of any sort, be it pious or inspired. 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Nacho2dope said:

My moms family is not religious at all. My grandparents on my dad side were very religious. My grandpa worked at the church office and both he and my grandma served in the SLC temple for years. They served as senior missionaries after he retired. They had 5 children, none of them are currently active members. They have 11 grandchildren and only myself and my sister are active. I have talked with my sister about this and its crazy to see how close our family came to being "extinct" in the gospel.

That's sad but good to hear that you and your sister are active in the gospel.  Even though I am the only member of the Church in my parent's family, I attribute my activity in the gospel to my grandparents on my Dad's side, and my Dad and his wife, too.  And also my Dad's first wife, who was and still is my Mom.  My Dad and his Dad were preachers in another church and they got me active enough that I wanted to follow in their footsteps and become a preacher, like them, myself, but then I found the Church and went in a slightly different direction.

[smac97]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why do we need an institute of religion?

To teach us precepts revealed to prophets, both past and present.

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To me some or many institutes rely on stressing that people need their religions or else.

People need revelation "or else."

Ephesians 4 is illustrative of why we need more than the individual:

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11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

If prophetic guidance and saving ordinances are requisite elements of proceeding toward salvation, then we as a community need to have those who are authorized to provide that guidance and administer those ordinances.

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They underestimate the power within many individuals to have the relationship with their God how they see it.

"How they see it" being the operative phrase.

What if God has established His Church on the earth?  What if he has given us apostles and prophets and such?  Are we at liberty to reject those messengers, and instead unilaterally re-do "the relationship with {} God" to conform to our individualized expectations?

What if God doesn't want us to do things that way?  What if he wants us to listen to and sustain prophets and apostles?

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Religion might be great for being a place that organizes great things to happen within the groups, but we have the power within us as well.

With respect, I don't think we do.  We can't get there on our own.  We cannot baptize ourselves.  We cannot preach our personal opinion and call it the "word of God."  We cannot reject God's messengers and presume to dictate to God how things should be.

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We don't have to rely on an institution for that power.

With respect, yes, we do.

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

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The claim of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be the only true and living church on the earth is centered on the concept of authority. The LDS belief has been well stated by President Joseph F. Smith: "As to the question of authority, nearly everything depends upon it. No ordinance can be performed to the acceptance of God without divine authority. No matter how fervently men may believe or pray, unless they are endowed with divine authority they can only act in their own name, and not legally nor acceptably in the name of Jesus Christ, in whose name all things must be done" (Smith, p. 102).

Because several different definitions are associated with authority in the scriptures, this doctrine has often been misunderstood:

1. Authority refers to formalized power associated with position, function, or legal designation as exemplified by the authority given Joseph in Egypt by Pharaoh (Gen. 41:40-41), by the man who gave his servants authority over his house when he departed (Mark 13:34), and by Church officers designated to have authority over members (Matt. 8:9; D&C 107:8). Authority in these cases presumes control by virtue of assigned position.

2. Authority is strength, might, or control of resources. This is exemplified by the power established by the Philistines over the Jews (Judg. 15) and by Rome's control of Judea at the time of Christ (Matt. 27:2). Authority in this sense connotes superiority or stature above another resulting from acquisitions, possessions, or physical strength.

3. Authority is expertise, as in the case of an expert on a subject. Examples include the authority ascribed to the twelve-year-old Jesus as a result of his teachings in the temple (Luke 2:42, 46-47), and the authority associated with the preaching of prophets such as Nephi 1, Lehi, Abinadi, and the sons of Mosiah 2 (Mosiah 13:6; Alma 17:3; Hel. 5:18).

4. Authority is a divine commission or calling from God. For example, Jesus gave his apostles specific authority to preach and to administer his gospel (Matt. 10:1; John 15:16; 3 Ne. 12:1), and certain individuals were empowered to baptize and perform miracles by this authority (Acts 5:12-16;8:5-17; Alma 5:3; Mosiah 18:13, 18; Moro. 2:1-3). As conveyed by Jesus Christ, this authority meant that ordinances performed on earth would be honored in heaven and, conversely, to loose (dissolve an ordinance) on earth would mean it was loosed in heaven (Matt. 16:19). The name given to this kind of authority in the scriptures is priesthood (Heb. 7:11-12, 14, 24; 1 Pet. 2:5, 9; D&C 84:107).

The fourth point above is, I think, an important point.  The scriptures are replete with stories that are predicated on divinely-provided "authority."

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Some organizations like to strip the power from their members and keep them in.

Not sure what you mean by "the power."

The Church claims to have a message from God.  People the world over are welcome to examine and study it, and to accept it.  That message centers on Jesus Christ.  Other vital elements include faith, repentance, revelation (to the individual and to the community), priesthood, saving ordinances, correct principles, righteous conduct, and so forth.

Now, an individual can come along and select just the bits and pieces he finds palatable and convenient, and reject the rest.  To accept such light and knowledge is commendable, but it would be far better to accept all such light and knowledge as can be had.  If and when we reject parts of the message because they are difficult to understand, or to accept, or are uncomfortable, or else unpopular in the eyes of the world, then we start to run into problems.  John 6 is a very good example of this.

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They like us to rely on them but often Deity gets lost in all of that.

I invite you to give this matter some further thought and study.  Consider, for example, this statement from Brigham Young:

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What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.

And this one from Spencer W. Kimball (same link):

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Follow promptings of the Holy Ghost. There is only one safe and sure way for man to act. The Lord has given him free choice and has given him, gratis, the information which is the best choice to make and what will be the results of either choice made. The Lord has never condemned nor permitted destruction to any people until he has warned them. Warning is as universal as the need for warning. One cannot say he did not know better. Ignorance is no excuse in the law. Every normal person may have a sure way of knowing what is right and what is wrong. He may learn the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, which will always guide him as to right and wrong. In addition to this, he has the leaders of the Lord's church. And the only sure, safe way is to follow that leadership—follow the Holy Spirit within you and follow the prophets, dead and living.

I do not think we are faced with an either/or conundrum.  "Follow the Holy Spirit within you and follow the prophets, dead and living."

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I think it can be a scam too. The millennials see through it. They see the big picture, IMO.

Pretty much every generation thinks it is smarter than its predecessor(s).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 23, 2019 by smac97

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t believe things will ever be so dire as to leave only one. That would be bad enough to bring on another general apostasy. 

On the contrary, I’m confident there will be enough righteous souls to continue the work of the Church in this dispensation, which is to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ — to put the infrastructure in place for that great event, as it were. This is done by preaching the gospel in all the world, organizing stakes of Zion everywhere and erecting temples to dot the earth. 

There have been plenty of fluctuations in the growth of the Church.

From 1950:

From 1900 to 2014:

We need to focus on missionary work, and on fellowshipping, and on service to our fellow man generally, and on our families, and on ourselves individually.

If we strive to do what the Lord wants us to do, then miracles will happen, and the Plan will unfold as it should.  And I'm not sure the Plan requires constant upward growth rates.

Elder Neal A. Maxwell put things this way: 

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The more declarative Jesus was, the more tentative some followers. Is this not the same today? As long as Jesus’ church and its prophets are doing certain things of which people fully approve, there is admiration. But when modern prophets begin to be declarative, then it is a very different matter!

“The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.” (John 6:41.)

“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:66.)

See also these comments from Sister Ardeth G. Kapp here: 

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Sometimes we are shortsighted and are not aware of what awaits us just around the corner following our obedience. We do not “receive a witness until after the trial of [our] faith” (Ether 12:6). We don’t negotiate with our Father in Heaven on these matters. The laws are in place. We know that “there is a law. . . upon which all blessings are predicated,” and we know that when we receive any blessing “it is by obedience to that law” (D&C 130:20).

And so our Father, wanting us to qualify for all of the blessings, has given us laws and commandments. These commandments are given not to restrict us but to redeem us—not to just reform us but to exalt us. Therefore, as Nephi said, “Cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life” (2 Nephi 10:23).

Some of us will resent, resist, even recoil from the apparent restrictions imposed upon us. And so it was in the Savior’s time. There were those who didn’t like what he taught. “This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” they said. “When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?” (John 6:60–61). And we read that “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him” (John 6:66).

The number of people who have accepted the Restored Gospel is not a first order piece of evidence in favor of the truth claims of the Restored Gospel. The Church is as true in 2019 with 16 million members as it was in 1830 with six.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why do we need an institute of religion? To me some or many institutes rely on stressing that people need their religions or else. They underestimate the power within many individuals to have the relationship with their God how they see it. Religion might be great for being a place that organizes great things to happen within the groups, but we have the power within us as well. We don't have to rely on an institution for that power. Some organizations like to strip the power from their members and keep them in. They like us to rely on them but often Deity gets lost in all of that. I think it can be a scam too. The millennials see through it. They see the big picture, IMO. I have no worries that this world is in trouble. It's been the religious zealots that cause problems, IMO. And the political scene, it's a joke. I love the recent outrage about climate change. Below is a link, the younger generation get it. 

https://www.axios.com/climate-protests-take-over-world-5a7fb7ad-a3e6-4645-88c4-428308dfcc75.html

 

We have opinions and that great  I do however disagree with your characterization of religion.  It is not a scam and does do incalculable good.  Don’t bother  telling me about what happened in the middle ages.  THAT was not religion.

Also the power is not w/in us.  It only comes from Christ.

The rising generation does have a religion but its not Deity based.  Their false gods are environmentalism, feminism,  immorality, the self, materialism...this is why John the Revelator described our day as “Sodom and Egypt”   The worship of those things, taking them away from organized religion id a very bad thing and we will pay for it as a society.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

.............................. “The gospel in its purity is never more than one generation away from extinction.” 

But would God allow it? I don’t think so. He has promised through scripture that priesthood power and keys will never again be taken from the earth. 

I believe He prevents it primarily by guiding and inspiring prophet-leaders to resist external or internal advocacy movements and pressure groups that would corrupt the doctrine. ..........

In order for this world to be real and not just some holographic simulation, there must be an ever-present and real risk of failure.  Free agency must fully apply.  Otherwise this would all be a sham.  If God's people apostatize, He would have no choice but to pull the plug, as He has done many times before.  God does not depend only on good leaders, because good leaders are no better than the people they serve.  The Body of Christ itself must be above reproach and worthy of the name.

I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth (the Body of Christ), and that it is the vanguard of the last dispensation, and that it will ultimately be successful in its assigned endeavors.  Not because God puts His thumb on the scale and does not allow failure, but because the Saints are faithful and loyal and obedient.

[Lemuel]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yesterday, I was reminded of a Ronald Reagan quote. He said, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.”

I pondered that and came up with an adaptation to be applied to the Church of Jesus Christ: “The gospel in its purity is never more than one generation away from extinction.” 

But would God allow it? I don’t think so. He has promised through scripture that priesthood power and keys will never again be taken from the earth. 

I believe He prevents it primarily by guiding and inspiring prophet-leaders to resist external or internal advocacy movements and pressure groups that would corrupt the doctrine. We should bear this in mind when we hear or see grumbling about priesthood correlation or encounter heretical notions such as the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction or revisions to the law of chastity to accommodate worldly trends and ideologies. 

The more worrisome question is, if we were already in an apostasy, would we know?

[Meadowchik]

If the gospel is that vulnerable, it would follow that some departure from it has possibly already happened. And the claim that that "God wouldn't allow it" and it's variations are predictably hubristic.

The importance imo is to start at humility to God above all others and to allow the space for church leaders to be wrong sometimes.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why do we need an institute of religion? To me some or many institutes rely on stressing that people need their religions or else. They underestimate the power within many individuals to have the relationship with their God how they see it. Religion might be great for being a place that organizes great things to happen within the groups, but we have the power within us as well. We don't have to rely on an institution for that power. Some organizations like to strip the power from their members and keep them in. They like us to rely on them but often Deity gets lost in all of that. I think it can be a scam too. The millennials see through it. They see the big picture, IMO. I have no worries that this world is in trouble. It's been the religious zealots that cause problems, IMO. And the political scene, it's a joke. I love the recent outrage about climate change. Below is a link, the younger generation get it. 

https://www.axios.com/climate-protests-take-over-world-5a7fb7ad-a3e6-4645-88c4-428308dfcc75.html

 

The younger generation is disproportionately plagued with mental and psychological disorders, cases of arrested development, and pessimism. I am not blaming them. If anything the generations before created the problems but the idea that they “get it” is silly to me.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If the gospel is that vulnerable, it would follow that some departure from it has possibly already happened. And the claim that that "God wouldn't allow it" and it's variations are predictably hubristic.

The importance imo is to start at humility to God above all others and to allow the space for church leaders to be wrong sometimes.

By which do you mean agree with you specifically as to where they have gone wrong?

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

The more worrisome question is, if we were already in an apostasy, would we know?

I think so.  The gifts of the Spirit would be lessened or withdrawn.  The prophets and apostles would be calling us to repentance.  Our behavior would be incongruent with the commandments.  

Instead, I believe the gifts remain.  I believe the Brethren are teaching us correct principles, and are in communion with God.  And while the Brethren are calling on us to repent, they are not declaring that the body of the Saints is in a state of apostasy.  The Church and its members continue to exercise faith, repent, partake of the Sacrament and other sacred ordinances, preach the Gospel, serve their fellow man, raise their children, and so on.

So yes, I think we would know.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think so.  The gifts of the Spirit would be lessened or withdrawn.  The prophets and apostles would be calling us to repentance.  Our behavior would be incongruent with the commandments.  

Instead, I believe the gifts remain.  I believe the Brethren are teaching us correct principles, and are in communion with God.  And while the Brethren are calling on us to repent, they are not declaring that the body of the Saints is in a state of apostasy.  The Church and its members continue to exercise faith, repent, partake of the Sacrament and other sacred ordinances, preach the Gospel, serve their fellow man, raise their children, and so on.

So yes, I think we would know.  .......................

Hugh Nibley used to lay harsh social criticism at our feet.  Was his a prophetic voice?  Do we too often claim that "all is well in Zion"?

[Meadowchik]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

By which do you mean agree with you specifically as to where they have gone wrong?

Can you grammar-check your question? It's a bit unclear.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Meadowchik

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hugh Nibley used to lay harsh social criticism at our feet.  Was his a prophetic voice?  Do we too often claim that "all is well in Zion"?

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that "all is well."  

I am proposing that the Church is not in a state of apostasy.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think so.  The gifts of the Spirit would be lessened or withdrawn.  The prophets and apostles would be calling us to repentance.  Our behavior would be incongruent with the commandments.  

Instead, I believe the gifts remain.  I believe the Brethren are teaching us correct principles, and are in communion with God.  And while the Brethren are calling on us to repent, they are not declaring that the body of the Saints is in a state of apostasy.  The Church and its members continue to exercise faith, repent, partake of the Sacrament and other sacred ordinances, preach the Gospel, serve their fellow man, raise their children, and so on.

So yes, I think we would know.  

Thanks,

-Smac

There is imo tremendous spiritual potential in simply gathering in Jesus' name. So the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well in many non-LDS gatherings across the globe.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Robert F. Smith]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that "all is well."  

I am proposing that the Church is not in a state of apostasy......................

Someone here in this thread just suggested the value of humility.  The "Nephite disease" is an ever-present threat, IMHO.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yesterday, I was reminded of a Ronald Reagan quote. He said, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.”

I pondered that and came up with an adaptation to be applied to the Church of Jesus Christ: “The gospel in its purity is never more than one generation away from extinction.” 

I  suppose that depends on which gospel elements and tenets you consider pure (and unchanging).

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But would God allow it? I don’t think so. He has promised through scripture that priesthood power and keys will never again be taken from the earth. 

I  agree with this.  Last dispensation means exactly that.  Last.  And I believe God is in control and can fix man's error eventually.  But until then I expect to see a decrease in the faithful, not an exponential growth of the kingdom.

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I believe He prevents it primarily by guiding and inspiring prophet-leaders to resist external or internal advocacy movements and pressure groups that would corrupt the doctrine. We should bear this in mind when we hear or see grumbling about priesthood correlation or encounter heretical notions such as the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction or revisions to the law of chastity to accommodate worldly trends and ideologies. 

That operates on the assumption that no "corruption of the doctrine" has already occurred.  With all the changes since the beginning that's a big assumption.

I  mean, you choose heretical notions such as challenges to BoM historicity or traditional marriage and chastity as points today God will protect against.  Yet to a Saint in the 19th Century Church the vast majority of today's membership would be seen as having accepted heresies of similar severity.

What makes things you consider heretical more significant than the things our predecessors did?  This is really a bit of pot meet kettle.

Edited September 23, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The younger generation is disproportionately plagued with mental and psychological disorders, cases of arrested development, and pessimism. I am not blaming them. If anything the generations before created the problems but the idea that they “get it” is silly to me.

I should have said they get that this country needs to open their eyes about climate change. I shared the link, but do believe they get the love end as well. They aren't as judgemental or insular. What if the climate does end the world and the church doesn't get to the countries it needs with missionary work, will that make our church speak out more. I know they've come up with better climate change with their buildings, but wouldn't it be nice if they spoke up in favor?

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, Nacho2dope said:

My moms family is not religious at all. My grandparents on my dad side were very religious. My grandpa worked at the church office and both he and my grandma served in the SLC temple for years. They served as senior missionaries after he retired. They had 5 children, none of them are currently active members. They have 11 grandchildren and only myself and my sister are active. I have talked with my sister about this and its crazy to see how close our family came to being "extinct" in the gospel.

All it takes is one set of parents to decide they want nothing to do with the church and the gospel can become extinct for the whole family and all generations to follow.

[stemelbow]

I'd suggest either JOseph or Brigham viewing the Church today would have to declare the gospel as they saw it is extinct now.  I mean the stuff they preached compared to what the Church is going on about today and saying anything about a gospel in its purity...

I will add though, certainly there is much more good today than there used to be in their day, in what we term the gospel (or the teachings of the Church).  I mean I detest the concept of polygamy and racism, to them that stuff was just part of what we call gospel.  

I'm pleased to see the adjustments by the Church, in all honesty.  Although not all adjustments are good.  

If we're leaving it simply as JEsus Christ and him crucified as being the gospel...I suppose it won't go extinct any time soon.  But adjustments will always be coming...they have to or the church wouldn't exist.  Outside pressure is an interesting pressure as it relates to the Church and it's changes.

Edited September 23, 2019 by stemelbow

[JLHPROF]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'd suggest either JOseph or Brigham viewing the Church today would have to declare the gospel as they saw it is extinct now.  I mean the stuff they preached compared to what the Church is going on about today and saying anything about a gospel in its purity...

I just made the same point above.  Today's Saints are yesterday's heretics.  And today's heretics are tomorrow's Saints.  At least organizationally.  God's opinion may differ.

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I will add though, certainly there is much more good today than there used to be in their day, in what we term the gospel (or the teachings of the Church).  I mean I detest the concept of polygamy and racism, to them that stuff was just part of what we call gospel.  

That's debatable.

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If we're leaving it simply as JEsus Christ and him crucified as being the gospel...I suppose it won't go extinct any time soon.  But adjustments will always be coming...they have to or the church wouldn't exist.  Outside pressure is an interesting pressure as it relates to the Church and it's changes.

The ability to reduce the gospel doctrine down whenever something gets eliminated or replaced will never cease to amaze me.  That said, the gospel is limited according to Joseph to the atonement and resurrection.  Although if that's all the gospel consists of there would have been nothing to restore.

Edited September 23, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Someone here in this thread just suggested the value of humility.  The "Nephite disease" is an ever-present threat, IMHO.

Humility, imo, includes not inflating issues beyond realistic levels...similar to someone refusing to accept God can forgive even their sins.