The gospel a generation away from extinction?

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are entitled to your personal beliefs and theories. But the Church clearly teaches of a “restoration,” one of its fundamental doctrines. And for there to be a restoration, there has to have been a loss or removal, or as the scriptures put it, a “falling away.”

From the “Apostasy” entry in “Gospel Topics” on the Church’s website:

”When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the Restoration of the fulness of the gospel.
“Latter-day Saints believe that, through the priesthood conferred to Joseph Smith by the ministering of angels, the authority to act in God’s name was brought back to the earth. This is ‘restored,’”not ‘reformed,’ Christianity. Their belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why most Latter-day Saint converts, from the 1830s to the present, converted from other Christian denominations. None of these converts thought they were leaving Christianity; they are simply grateful to learn about, and become part of, the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers a more complete and rich Christian Church spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.
During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances.
“We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44).”

You apparently misunderstood my point.  Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  There is a difference between the priesthood and the gospel.  The priesthood was lost among mortals by a general apostasy from our Lord's true teachings, or I suppose we could say by a general falling away from the true gospel, but the true gospel was still contained on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Mortals generally had just rejected or misunderstood those true teachings and instead taught things that were not true.

I know the priesthood was restored and the true teachings of the gospel were once again taught by true prophets of God who often quoted teachings in the Holy Bible.  The teachings in the Holy Bible were still as true as they ever were, and the true gospel was and still is on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Some people just misinterpret or misunderstand or outright reject those true teachings in favor of their own misinterpretations of those teachings.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quote

That is what some prophecies state.
I personally expect the Church to shrink due to the prophesied falling away.  Once we see that start we will know the end times have really begun.

The falling away has already occurred. That’s why the Restoration was necessary. 

From the “Apostasy” entry in “Gospel Topics”:

“We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44).”

But there will be a falling away of a large number in the last days, even if it's not a general apostasy.
Only a handful will remain.

2nd Thessalonians 2 (LDS edition)

Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming—The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We have this to look forward to.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, I was under the impression the three Nephites operated on the American continent so that explains the lack of record for the first thousand years.  Now John the Revelator who is in the same situation operating in the old world probably would have popped up occasionally during that time.

I consider a lot of the stories as folklore.  But the three Nephites and John the Revelator I believe to be very real, and keeping Apostolic authority on the earth during the loss of the gospel.

Just because authority is present, doesn't mean they are always authorized to share it (thus the loss of the gospel you refer to)

Quote

13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.

14 And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the bHoly Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.

15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.

16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had a willfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

17 But I did remain among them, but I was forbidden to preach unto them, because of the hardness of their hearts; and because of the hardness of their hearts the land was cursed for their sake.

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But there will be a falling away of a large number in the last days, even if it's not a general apostasy.
Only a handful will remain.

2nd Thessalonians 2 (LDS edition)

Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming—The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We have this to look forward to.

I tend to assume patterns...what happened before happens again.  Therefore I assume something similar to what happened at his birth will happen prior to Christ's appearance in the future.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But there will be a falling away of a large number in the last days, even if it's not a general apostasy.
Only a handful will remain.

2nd Thessalonians 2 (LDS edition)

Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming—The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We have this to look forward to.

It has already happened but yes it will happen again.  We know who Satan is and how he worked to cause the "Great Apostasy" as well as his usual work of causing people to become apostates of the true church of Christ.  He calls himself God, which technically he is although not the same person we worship as our Father in heaven, and a lot of people in the world do worship him as God without realizing that he is not our Father in heaven because he shows or pretends so well that he is.  We also know who Perdition is and why Satan is referred to as the (or a) son of Perdition.

But, yeah, there will continue to be a falling away from the true church of Christ until he comes again, although Satan won't deceive or delude the whole world again like he did before.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But there will be a falling away of a large number in the last days, even if it's not a general apostasy.
Only a handful will remain.

2nd Thessalonians 2 (LDS edition)

Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming—The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We have this to look forward to.

This pertains to the “falling away” that has already transpired. Paul was addressing people who thought the Second Coming would occur soon — within their lifetimes. He was telling them that would not be the case, that there would be a general apostasy first. 

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I tend to assume patterns...what happened before happens again.  Therefore I assume something similar to what happened at his birth will happen prior to Christ's appearance in the future.

But there is no prophecy that a general apostasy —such as that which occurred after the deaths of the apostles — will occur again. 

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You apparently misunderstood my point.  Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  There is a difference between the priesthood and the gospel.  The priesthood was lost among mortals by a general apostasy from our Lord's true teachings, or I suppose we could say by a general falling away from the true gospel, but the true gospel was still contained on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Mortals generally had just rejected or misunderstood those true teachings and instead taught things that were not true.

I know the priesthood was restored and the true teachings of the gospel were once again taught by true prophets of God who often quoted teachings in the Holy Bible.  The teachings in the Holy Bible were still as true as they ever were, and the true gospel was and still is on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Some people just misinterpret or misunderstand or outright reject those true teachings in favor of their own misinterpretations of those teachings.

In my opening post, the phrase I used was “the gospel in its purity.” Yes, some of the teachings remained, but in a corrupted form. As Moroni told Joseph Smith, they had “a form of godliness” but “denied the power thereof.” 

Even though the Bible was present, without revelation — and without priesthood power — the gospel <in its purity> could not be found. 

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In my opening post, the phrase I used was “the gospel in its purity.” Yes, some of the teachings remained, but in a corrupted form. As Moroni told Joseph Smith, they had “a form of godliness” but “denied the power thereof.” 

Even though the Bible was present, without revelation — and without priesthood power — the gospel <in its purity> could not be found. 

The power of godliness is manifest through the priesthood, so yes with the rejection of the true priesthood those who rejected it were denying and leaving themselves without the saving power of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

But the true gospel, in simple terms, was still contained on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Remember, the gospel itself is very basic and simple concept explained in those quotes I provided from our Dictionary and Topical Guide.  

With the true priesthood restored the true gospel could then be preached by men who knew what the true gospel was, and the Holy Bible was a very useful tool to provide testimony about what the true gospel was, and is.

I'm not on board with the concept that the true gospel was lost.  I suppose I could honestly say that nobody knew what the true gospel was .until someone with the true priesthood of God explained and expounded on it. 

But the gospel was still on the pages of the Bible and anyone who knows what the true gospel is can read it on those pages of the Holy Bible and know they are reading about the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

The power of godliness is manifest through the priesthood, so yes with the rejection of the true priesthood those who rejected it were denying and leaving themselves without the saving power of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

But the true gospel, in simple terms, was still contained on the pages of the Holy Bible.  Remember, the gospel itself is very basic and simple concept explained in those quotes I provided from our Dictionary and Topical Guide.  

With the true priesthood restored the true gospel could then be preached by men who knew what the true gospel was, and the Holy Bible was a very useful tool to provide testimony about what the true gospel was, and is.

I'm not on board with the concept that the true gospel was lost.  I suppose I could honestly say that nobody knew what the true gospel was .until someone with the true priesthood of God explained and expounded on it. 

But the gospel was still on the pages of the Bible and anyone who knows what the true gospel is can read it on those pages of the Holy Bible and know they are reading about the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

The writings in the Bible have not been transmitted in their  pristine state. And even if they were, there is much pertaining to the gospel in its pure form that is not in the Bible, nor are we capable with limited mortal knowledge of grasping the purity that <is> there. We need divine revelation for that. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Just because authority is present, doesn't mean they are always authorized to share it (thus the loss of the gospel you refer to)

I remember reading a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith once that drew the distinction between priesthood holders and priesthood keys, and that it was the keys relating to administering the gospel that were lost. So, even if there were individual priesthood holders present on the earth at any given time, without the keys to administer the kingdom they wouldn't be authorized to do so. 

 

[phaedrus ut]

Present numbers have active Mormons outnumbered by inactive numbers 2 to 1.  From what I can see that trend is expanding.  Combine that with decline birth rates, conversion rates, and declining senior and youth missionaries I don't see that trend reversing.  Extinction is never a realistic possibility.  Heck there are still Strangites on Beaver Island.  I think we are close to the peak of total active Mormons globally.  

Phaedrus

[rockpond]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:45 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Yesterday, I was reminded of a Ronald Reagan quote. He said, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.”

I pondered that and came up with an adaptation to be applied to the Church of Jesus Christ: “The gospel in its purity is never more than one generation away from extinction.” 

But would God allow it? I don’t think so. He has promised through scripture that priesthood power and keys will never again be taken from the earth. 

I believe He prevents it primarily by guiding and inspiring prophet-leaders to resist external or internal advocacy movements and pressure groups that would corrupt the doctrine. We should bear this in mind when we hear or see grumbling about priesthood correlation or encounter heretical notions such as the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction or revisions to the law of chastity to accommodate worldly trends and ideologies. 

Internal advocacy:  I think Sam Young's Protect LDS Children movement is a good example of internal advocacy.  And his efforts immediately preceded changes to the handbook regarding youth interviews and the newly released "Protecting Children and Youth" training.

Worldly trends:  Monogamy is definitely a worldly trend and our leaders chose to go that route.

Ideologies:  Racial equality is an ideology that took us a while to follow but we got there.

 

I would submit that our challenge as Latter-day Saints is not that the pure gospel is one generation from extinction. Our challenge, rather, is preparing ourselves for the continuing restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Internal advocacy:  I think Sam Young's Protect LDS Children movement is a good example of internal advocacy. 

I think it's a pretty horrible movement.  

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

And his efforts immediately preceded changes to the handbook regarding youth interviews and the newly released "Protecting Children and Youth" training.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, eh?

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I would submit that our challenge as Latter-day Saints is not that the pure gospel is one generation from extinction. Our challenge, rather, is preparing ourselves for the continuing restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

I like that.  Is there anything in particular you have in mind that you think will be included in this "continuing restoration?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The writings in the Bible have not been transmitted in their  pristine state. And even if they were, there is much pertaining to the gospel in its pure form that is not in the Bible, nor are we capable with limited mortal knowledge of grasping the purity that <is> there. We need divine revelation for that. 

This thought exercise has been good for me.  I appreciate you bearing with me as I have gone through it.  In the Bible text the apostle Paul stated the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16, and with revelation from God that was not clearly conveyed in the Bible text I know that the power of godliness is manifest in the ordinances of the priesthood of God, D&C 84:20.  So while the gospel is stated clearly in the text of the Bible, even as we have it as it was transmitted to our day, it takes the priesthood of God to manifest and administer in the ordinances of the gospel even though the Bible text states very clearly what the gospel and the ordinances of the gospel are.  We know faith is a necessary component of the gospel, for example, but it takes the priesthood of God to manifest what that faith is.  That's why we need men who hold offices in the priesthood to preach the gospel, to state what it is and what kind of faith we need to take hold of the gospel that is manifest in the text of the Bible and to make sure we keep preaching that same doctrine that was preached by those who preached it in the text of the Bible.  Without men who hold the priesthood to continually ensure that we stay on the right course when preaching the gospel and manifest the ordinances as they should be manifest and administered, false teachings would creep in without correction.  

I knew all this on some level already but I hadn't put the pieces together in quite this way before.  When I look at the text in the Bible, as someone who knows what the gospel is and as someone who has been properly baptized while receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost,. I can see the true gospel in that text of the Bible.  My eyes are opened because I already know what to look for.  Not everyone sees things as well as I do now, though, and even I didn't see as clearly as I do now before I was baptized by proper authority and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, so that is why there is still a lot of confusion and disagreement in this world about what the gospel is and what the priesthood is for.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I would submit that our challenge as Latter-day Saints is not that the pure gospel is one generation from extinction. Our challenge, rather, is preparing ourselves for the continuing restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I like that.  Is there anything in particular you have in mind that you think will be included in this "continuing restoration?"

Further light would be wonderful.  Contradictory light is not helpful (or probably even genuine).

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Further light would be wonderful.  Contradictory light is not helpful (or probably even genuine).

What "contradictory light" are you referencing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What "contradictory light" are you referencing here?

Doesn't matter.  Joseph Smith taught that we would know a message from God was false if it contradicted a prior message from God.
And there are probably a dozen scriptures stating that God doesn't change or vary in what he says and does.

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Quote

What "contradictory light" are you referencing here?

Doesn't matter. 

Well, it's a serious allegation.  Are you just speaking theoretically, then?

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph Smith taught that we would know a message from God was false if it contradicted a prior message from God.

Not sure what "contradict" means in this context.

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And there are probably a dozen scriptures stating that God doesn't change or vary in what he says and does.

We can bump into some lexical issues pretty easily in such discussion.  Consider, for example, this quote from Joseph Smith:

Quote

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.'

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 256 (11 April 1842)

So God Himself does not change, but I think His instructions to us do (or can).

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

Just now, smac97 said:

Well, it's a serious allegation.  Are you just speaking theoretically, then?

Not sure what "contradict" means in this context.  We can bump into some lexical issues pretty easily in such discussion.

Contradict in this instance I believe would refer specifically to truths, doctrines, things pertaining to eternity etc.  
And in my opinion it's not theoretical but I decline to go down your usual rabbit hole with examples for you to pick apart.

Quote

So God Himself does not change, but I think His instructions to us do (or can).

I agree with this.  Instructions can change (move to Ohio, no move to Missouri instead).
 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So God Himself does not change, but I think His instructions to us do (or can).

Or we can think God has changed when he actually hasn't, or that he hasn't changed when he actually has.  He wasn't always as he is now, ya know, at least not if he went through mortality like us or even as Jesus did.

But then again the saying is that God does not (present tense) change, not that he has never changed, so I suppose it is just another case of it being a matter of interpretation.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Ahab

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

Internal advocacy:  I think Sam Young's Protect LDS Children movement is a good example of internal advocacy.  And his efforts immediately preceded changes to the handbook regarding youth interviews and the newly released "Protecting Children and Youth" training.

Worldly trends:  Monogamy is definitely a worldly trend and our leaders chose to go that route.

Ideologies:  Racial equality is an ideology that took us a while to follow but we got there.

 

I would submit that our challenge as Latter-day Saints is not that the pure gospel is one generation from extinction. Our challenge, rather, is preparing ourselves for the continuing restoration of the fullness of the gospel.

Need we remind ourselves where Sam Young’s brand of internal advocacy got him?

Monogamy is not a a worldly trend. It is the default condition we have always embraced as Latter-day Saints, even during the period when plurality of wives was permitted and provisionally practiced. There has never been a time in the history of the Church when monogamy was rejected. I have one man in my ancestry who practiced plurality of wives, but all other faithful Church members in my lineages were monogamous. 
 

Finally, racial equality is not an ideology. It is a true and enduring principle we embraced even prior to 1978. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[sjdawg]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:52 AM, Tacenda said:

. My friend's sons who both served missions now don't follow the WoW, drink alcohol and drink coffee, and have tattoo's. She only knows about the son who drinks coffee and has a tattoo.

I hate seeing these criteria used as any measurement of spirituality or righteousness. I know is a a part of mormon dogma but I struggle to believe these play any role when God determines who is living a good life and who isn't.  

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Quote

My friend's sons who both served missions now don't follow the WoW, drink alcohol and drink coffee, and have tattoo's. She only knows about the son who drinks coffee and has a tattoo.

I hate seeing these criteria used as any measurement of spirituality or righteousness. I know is a a part of mormon dogma but I struggle to believe these play any role when God determines who is living a good life and who isn't.  

Do you not equate obedience to God with righteousness and spirituality?

If you do, then the question becomes has God ever given any revelation or opinion to his children on these things?

Even Christ said "if you love me, keep my commandments".  The idea among some that all we have to do is love God and Christ and everything else is extra doesn't match what Christ said. 
I know you personally didn't claim that but the idea in Christianity that you can be righteous and spiritual just by loving but without obeying God and Christ's commandments is just false.  And it's a falsehood that just keeps spreading.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Do you not equate obedience to God with righteousness and spirituality?

If you do, then the question becomes has God ever given any revelation or opinion to his children on these things?

Even Christ said "if you love me, keep my commandments".  The idea among some that all we have to do is love God and Christ and everything else is extra doesn't match what Christ said. 
I know you personally didn't claim that but the idea in Christianity that you can be righteous and spiritual just by loving but without obeying God and Christ's commandments is just false.  And it's a falsehood that just keeps spreading.

The question then becomes whether they understand/believe living the WoW and not using tattoos are commandments or not.  If they do not have faith in the restored gospel or later modern prophets, then likely they don't see those as actual commandments and therefore could be keeping the commandments they believe God has given to the best of their ability.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Calm