Guns at church policy changed

[randy]

" I did not ask him why he felt uncomfortable, but if I were to infer what he meant, it would be that he did not trust the average gun owner to be as responsible as some here suggest they are. Perhaps he has had some experience in that area."

I see.  So again, I would have to ask him what it was specifically that caused him to have that level of distrust of the average law abiding citizen to the degree it would cause him to move back to CA!   I mean, did he know all of these people personally....did he go over to their homes to break bread....and they took their guns out and started playing Russian Roulette?    I do not believe that because a person is current or former LEO, that somehow that should cause us to have a higher degree of trust in what they believe should or should not be done with respect to this subject.  We all have read of the many, many instances of LEO's being involved in negligent discharges, and yes...actually playing Russian roulette wherein the LEO's partner was killed.  So, there is plenty of stupidity to go around.

Sure,  this is a forum.  People exaggerate...and worse.  Take everything that is said with a HUGE grain of salt.

[Anijen]

9 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

  I don't know what the requirements are to get a permit here in Utah, but I would like to see them tightened up a bit.

How so? I am truly curious. How would you tighten them up? Furthermore, you, not knowing the requirements still would like to see those requirements tighted up.

Utah has the most respected concealed carry permit out of all the states. Utah's CCP's are also the most recognised by other states,  this just means one can  carry concealed in another state that recognises Utah's permit.

Each state has their own conceal carry requirements, Utah and Nebraska's are the following:

• You must be 21 years of age
• Must have proof of good character
• You cannot have been convicted of any felony
• No DUI's
• No assaults
• No batteries,
• No domestic abuse (even the misdemeanor kind)
• Proof of residency (most states have a minimum of 30 days)
• State training requirements (Utah and Nebraska is 16 hours over 2 days of 8 hour classes)
• Must pay for the training (typically around $200)
• Must bring your own handgun and ammunition (approximately 200 rounds will be shot during training). Note; each bullet, depending on the caliber can cost up to $3.00+ a bullet (times that by 200).
• States have Shall Issue, May Issue, and Right to Deny, Utah is a Shall Issue State if you pass all requirements.
• Must pass a background check (again). You had to pass one of these just to purchase a firearm, now you have to do it again. This is done through the Borough of Criminal Investigation (BCI) or through the FBI.
• Must submit two copies of your fingerprints (one is on file and the other gets digitized) This usually costs about $40.00 - 60.00.

Then you wait until everything has been verified and your background check is done. This is usually about 2 weeks but could take longer. Finally, A holder of a Utah CCP their name is ran through the background check every two weeks for as long as you have a CCP. I have had a CCP over 12 years and my background check has been made every 2 weeks for over 12 years. If there is ever a red flag pops up the state police (usually Highway Patrol will be at your home to confiscate your guns.

Now you know the requirements, please tell me how would you "tighten them up a bit?"

 

 

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Edited to add. I did like the suggestion a few pages back where the Bishop would select a few people approved to have a weapon in church. I have no problem with that either, but frankly I don't want to sit down in church next to Brother John "I have a Bomb shelter in my back yard" Anderson and have to worry about if he is carrying that Glock he is always bragging about.

I smell a contradiction in here somewhere but don't feel like picking through it....  What if the bishop picks Bro Anderson?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Right.  Those who break laws are bucking the system and that is why they are punished for breaking those laws.  After they break them. Which is why they are punished for breaking those laws, after they break them.

Until God gives us omniscience to see beforehand that someone will break a law later, before they have actually broken a law, there isn't much we can do about those who break laws until after they have chosen to break them.

Tom Cruise can do it. 

So how does putting more restrictions on owning guns legally provide more protection from folks who should not have guns? Maybe we are talking past each other.

[Anijen]

Just a clarification, although I own guns, and have a CCP (both a Utah and Nebraskan CCP). I have not carried, open or concealed for it least 6 years now (maybe over 7 years) because I obey the law. I am usually in church, at school (as a student or as a substitute teacher), or I am in a federal building (usually a courtroom). My guns are safely locked up in a huge safe and are unloaded and the bullets are kept in a separate room. Only me and wife know the combination to the safe. I am no threat to anyone and I'm pretty sure an 80 year old could quickly make me tap out.

I do still have that bat under my bed.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Anijen said:

I agree, those are the ones we should worry about. No state, including Utah has a filter for those likely to commit crimes. That would require some clairvoyance beyond their power. However, limiting those who can purchase firearms and limiting those who do not qualify for a CCP is the best thing any state can do right now. This, of course, does not stop a person from illegally obtaining a firearm and using it. The states with the most gun control laws have not been able to control the gun violence, simply because criminals do not obey the laws. 

Aye, there’s the rub.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, randy said:

Take everything that is said with a HUGE grain of salt.

After 30,000 posts here, I would suggest that one consider a salt mine as a better analogy.

That reminds me of this place I got to visit in Poland a few years ago.  EVERYTHING you see here except the glass illumination sources- is CARVED from salt.  This is a quarter mile underground, about as deep as the Empire State Building is tall! It takes several minutes on a high speed elevator to get down to that level.    Even the "statues" etc are carved from salt, including the "bricks".   They used to hold mass here for the miners in the old days when they virtually lived in the mines.

There room after room similarly carved- it is like an entire "castle" all underground and all carved from the salt by the miners.  Visit Poland- it is full of great treasures and is very inexpensive!

No, it has nothing to do with guns, I just thought it was amazingly cool!  And speaking of cool- the constant temperature is around 55 degrees year round.

https://mymodernmet.com/wieliczka-salt-mine/

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

What we're not telling them though is how many police officers we have as members who have guns and know how to use them. The target isn't as easy as some people may think!

I think we might have two in our stake.

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

 

Since I've got to die anyway one way or another I can't think of a better way to go than to go with my family who is there with me at my Church meetings.  The lawbreaking killer is the one who would be in big trouble.

I would rather go peacefully in my bed surrounded by my loved ones who will continue to live out their lives, or just about any other scenario where I pass and they would go on. But to each his own.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Duplicate

Edited August 26, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[CA Steve]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I smell a contradiction in here somewhere but don't feel like picking through it....  What if the bishop picks Bro Anderson?

Even worse, what if the Bishop is Brother Anderson? 😮

 

Like I said, no system is perfect, and I should add neither is any Bishop.

[ERMD]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

After 30,000 posts here, I would suggest that one consider a salt mine as a better analogy.

That reminds me of this place I got to visit in Poland a few years ago.  EVERYTHING you see here except the glass illumination sources- is CARVED from salt.  This is a quarter mile underground, about as deep as the Empire State Building is tall! It takes several minutes on a high speed elevator to get down to that level.    Even the "statues" etc are carved from salt, including the "bricks".   They used to hold mass here for the miners in the old days when they virtually lived in the mines.

There room after room similarly carved- it is like an entire "castle" all underground and all carved from the salt by the miners.  Visit Poland- it is full of great treasures and is very inexpensive!

No, it has nothing to do with guns, I just thought it was amazingly cool!  And speaking of cool- the constant temperature is around 55 degrees year round.

https://mymodernmet.com/wieliczka-salt-mine/

 

Our daughter went there a few years back (I've still never been to Europe).  She said it was stunning.

 

[randy]

Wow!  That's all I got...WOW!

[randy]

14 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Even worse, what if the Bishop is Brother Anderson? 😮

 

Like I said, no system is perfect, and I should add neither is any Bishop.

HAHAHA!  Now THAT made me laugh out loud!   Okay...this has been fun,  but I gotta go clean my S&W M&P Sport 2 AR-15.   Gotta be ready for all the Zombies ya know!

[CA Steve]

1 minute ago, randy said:

HAHAHA!  Now THAT made me laugh out loud!   Okay...this has been fun,  but I gotta go clean my S&W M&P Sport 2 AR-15.   Gotta be ready for all the Zombies ya know!

So the other day when I was at the range at the invitation of my best friend who is a gun collector of sorts, I got to shoot his AR-15 and that was a lot of fun. Man that was loud!

 

Me, I prefer to collect books.  I just pick up a 1835 copy of Josephus that I think is amazing.

 

[ERMD]

8 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So the other day when I was at the range at the invitation of my best friend who is a gun collector of sorts, I got to shoot his AR-15 and that was a lot of fun. Man that was loud!

 

Me, I prefer to collect books.  I just pick up a 1835 copy of Josephus that I think is amazing.

 

Shoot suppressed.  Takes care of most of the noise and 80% of the recoil.   😉

[Anijen]

Just now, ERMD said:

Shoot suppressed.  Takes care of most of the noise and 80% of the recoil.   😉

I love shooting subsonic ammo (usually a 22) with a suppressor. The rats don't run away and you can get a lot of them (save the crop).

Just an FYI, suppressors even by themselves are considered firearms.

[ERMD]

2 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I love shooting subsonic ammo (usually a 22) with a suppressor. The rats don't run away and you can get a lot of them (save the crop).

Just an FYI, suppressors even by themselves are considered firearms.

I have 5.  They are total game-changers, especially when shooting larger caliber weapons.  I HATE shooting my .300 WM without a can.  With it, I can shoot all afternoon without getting a miserably sore shoulder or a headache.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, randy said:

Again...most of the concerns I read on this thread could be greatly reduced if the person who is choosing to carry would do so in a responsible way...which should certainly include follow on training.  You say "they hire LE to shoot them in the act of committing those gun crimes, when they find them".   This very very rarely happens.  Again, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away.  LE are just that.  They enforce the laws.  They're not hired to personally protect us, nor should we have any expectation that they should. That's "our" responsibility.

I think we all agree that anyone who accepts the responsibility to carry a weapon, should also be willing to put in the necessary time and effort to train and become confident and proficient in the proper use of it, again...that would include those mental exercise scenarios  that would reinforce "appropriate force" decisions, when to engage or not engage at all.   To responsibly carry means so much more than choosing the right gun, caliber and holster.

When I lived in NY I used to live near a Jewish deli.

I would take myself out for breakfast sometimes and get my absolutely favorite breakfast ever- Lox, Eggs and Onions, with Potatoes.

YUM!

The waitress would take my order and then yell it out to the cook 

"LEO with POT"

Now I find that just a tad ambiguous. 

 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Anytime I have thrown a book (not often I admit) they have opened up and fluttered a lot and virtually never it the target..  Opening up is like putting on air brakes..... and they tend to go straight down from there!

Good point. Better to use a quad, zipped up in one of those scripture cases (maybe even in camo). 

In fact, when I was a deacon I once successfully brought down a classmate with my set.

He had popped me in the back of my head as he was running by me, and for some reason I thought it was a good idea to give into the dark side and lob my scriptures straight at him. 

As it turned out, they landed perfectly on his left ankle just as his foot was coming off the ground - causing it to be pushed back down with enough force to trip and eat it. 

He hit the ground just hard enough to make me feel a little bad about my awesome takedown.  

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

Having this policy seems like an announcement that our churches are gun free zones.  Even though it may not be true, I'm not a fan of proclaiming such.

Did shootings go up with the previous announcement of discouragement?  I heard the same concerns that the announcement would draw a big target on our members.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, randy said:

Again...training, training...training.  One of the first disciplines you learn when being trained is looking beyond your target.  If there are innocents behind the target, change your angle (drop to the ground to obtain an upward trajectory or take several steps to left or right).   A person who carries should run these various scenarios through their mind daily.  Its no different what we're taught in church about avoiding situations where we might be tempted, to have mentally worked through those situations and to know exactly what our response would be before it happens.  Same thing with these self-defense scenarios.  If a person works through the most common...they will find that things are not as cut and dried as perhaps they initially thought.  That gives them the opportunity work seriously ponder upon how they "hopefully" would respond.

I definitely agree training is key.

What state requires that level of training?  Any?  I know Utah doesn't because my husband had a conceal carry permit and his training didn't get to the level, not even close iirc....and if Utah is up at the top as far as quality control....

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

First I have to tell you that I have loved your avatar over the years.  That is exactly the way I feel most of the time on the internet.

Not quite sure what you mean though- here in Cali they do not sell guns at Walmart, as they do in Utah, my intent was to name places where no guns were sold.  Period.

I spend a lot of time in Texas which is a different world as far as guns go.  The first thing a cop said to me when I got pulled over once in Arizona was "Are there any firearms in the car"? and he was also scanning the passengers looking for facial expression changes.

In Texas, the first question was "License and registration, please- and do you have a concealed carry permit for any weapons you are carrying?"

It's a whole different world!  In Texas the assumption is pretty much that you DO have weapons- the question is just whether or not they are legal.

I would be interested in hearing similar comments about how things differ in Texas- I suppose that would not be a derail.....  ?

This article seems to indicate that the recent announcement was because of the change in the state law:

While the new policy on firearms applies to the entire church, a letter about the change was recently sent to local leaders in Texas and shared with members, Woodruff said. The letter was sent because of a change in state law there that will permit the carrying of open and concealed weapons in places of worship unless a person is notified that it is prohibited.

Texas bishops were asked to share the church’s adjusted policy publicly with 362,946 Mormon members in the state before Sept. 1, Woodruff said.

“The decision has been made not to place written signs on our buildings, but rather, prior to September 1, 2019 we are asking all bishops in Texas to read the following statement in the sacrament meetings of all units to give effective oral notice to members of the Church and visitors that weapons are not permitted,” a letter from the church to its leaders states.

Woodruff said the policy will be formally communicated to local church leaders “in the near future.” Those leaders will be responsible for sharing the guidelines with the 6.7 million members across the United States. The church’s policy tweak comes about one year after a volunteer firefighter was fatally shot inside one of its churches in rural Nevada.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, strappinglad said:

When Pres Nelson visited my ward a while back, I wonder if his bodyguards carried guns

They could have been locals hired for the occasion.  Never been in a ward/branch that didn't have someone officially trained to kill.

Moscow it was one, two? CIA operatives.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Should they therefore not have them?

Does having them increase the chance of accidents?

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

As we have learned from sad experiences, someone with murderous intentions will not be deterred by “no-weapons” laws or policies.

I spent several hours in a real lockdown situation believing there was a student shooter on our campus, frantically searching the room for some means of defense while 65 high school students hid in instrument lockers, closets, and practice rooms. Fortunately, the student was eventually apprehended without violence, but the feelings of fright, vulnerability, and helplessness were real and awful. I wished I had been armed.  Subsequently, a number of us teachers brought wooden staves, bats, and golf clubs into our rooms, but we were told we couldn’t even do that. We had some interesting faculty meetings after the event.

The woman shot in Lehi was a friend of our family and had dated one of our sons. A criminal (ex-Mormon) made murderous threats against one of our ward members who then had to carry a weapon for personal defense.

It’s a hard subject.

In situations that are prohibitive like that, you can always carry a cane.  A heavy wooden cane. They can't prohibit you from having a cane to help you walk.