Guns at church policy changed

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Not necessarily bad guys, but that is 1 of the 2 options available.  People dressed in a law enforcement uniform would more likely be among the good guys.  Absent the uniform, though, before committing a crime, how would you know?

I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of someone who doesn't know whether a guy with a gun is a bad guy or a good guy.  A man who just sees another man with a gun, openly carrying it, perhaps getting ready to use it.  A man with a gun in a store, for example. Or a guy carrying a gun into a move theater, for example.  Or a man walking down the street with a rifle or pistol in his hands for who knows what or whatever reason. ???  A guy with a gun can shoot people, you know.  Would you not worry at all until you saw him start shooting? 

Would you take your children with you into a situation where you saw a man, who you did not know, who was not wearing a law enforcement uniform, who was carrying a gun for who knows what reason?

No, I would not even care until a perp, whom I probably would not even be conscious of beforehand, started shooting. And then, I would be glad for whatever good guys with guns were on scene. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

I understand what you are saying, I just don't want to live my life in fear that someone is going to do something bad to me or my family or friends. Following the spirit is right and a good thing, assuming you are able to have the spirit with you always. Doh! there's that word again!

To avoid fear it is best to be prepared for whatever might happen and then choose to be brave enough to overcome any fear you may have.  Courage is not absence of fear, it is just being brave enough to act in spite of any fear you may have.

So what would you do to be prepared for a situation where someone you don't know is openly carrying a gun?  Choosing to be brave is one thing you could do, but what would you do if it started to look like he was getting ready to use that gun?

Might you then wish you had not entered the room where he was when you saw him with a gun?  Too late,  you're already there now and it's  just a matter of what you will do next.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No, I would not even care until a perp, who I probably would not even be conscious of beforehand, started shooting. And then, I would be glad for whatever good guys with guns were on scene. 

I would prefer to be more prudent and cautious than that.  Otherwise it may be SURPRISE SURPRISE and I would have gotten myself into what could be a really big mess.

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "openly carrying a gun." 

As for what I would do - honestly, I would probably think to myself 'Huh, cool pistol' and then walk up and start a conversation. 

 

Yeah he asked me the same question and that is what I felt as well.

Of course it is totally illegal in California so I would wonder what was "up" and be concerned- not that he was going to shoot- but that he knew of something I did not know that caused him to make such a drastic decision.

I would assume it was designed to be a deterrent because why would he carry openly when it is as illegal as carrying concealed where I live?  And that impression would be increased if he was sitting somewhere where the gun was clearly visible.

I have been shooting with most of the guys and women in the ward who are into that and so the conversation would probably be more about what he anticipated as a problem than about the gun.  

Besides that I kind of know who has what kind of weapons in the ward, having been shooting with them and swapping guns to try out.

[JAHS]

33 minutes ago, randy said:

Hahaha!!  THERE YA GO!!  AWESOME!!     The most awesome toy Santa brought me back in 1966 was a "Johnny Seven OMA" machine gun!   OMA=ONE MAN ARMY

Hmmm...now that I look at this pic a little closer....the lil hombre on the far right seems to have the "look"!

Yes! He doesn't open carry a gun anymore but changed it for a pair of scissors. He owns his own barber shop now. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Yes! He doesn't open carry a gun anymore but changed it for a pair of scissors. He owns his own barber shop now. 

How long are the blades on those scissors? The legal limit is 3", I think.

Think "humor" and Edward Scissorhands.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Ahab

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would prefer to be more prudent and cautious than that.  Otherwise it may be SURPRISE SURPRISE and I would have gotten myself into what could be a really big mess.

Since it’s extremely unlikely I’m going to be conscious of a would-be perpetrator before it is too late to avoid him, my sense of caution favors allowing a few capable and trustworthy armed individuals to be on hand as a defensive or even a deterring measure.

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I remember reading stats when I followed this subject more closely a few years ago to the effect that in cities,  states, and even countries where the most draconian gun laws were implemented, gun crime and violence would shoot up dramatically.  This was documented by a researcher out of the Univ. of Chicago, and was totally unexpected by him.  I should research his study.

Don't have to- it's correct.

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They let you bring the weapon into the temple?

No, Scott... of course not... it stayed in the car... 

GG

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Ahab said:

It doesn't. It may make it more difficult for those who should not have guns to get guns, as well as those who are legally allowed to have guns, but anyone who should not have a gun could still get one if they really wanted to get one.

Laws help to protect people who obey laws but no law can protect against people who are willing to break laws.

 

Maybe so.  I don't know.  What was your point?

Exactly the same as yours. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, randy said:

Hmmmm....   If you're at Church, and say 6 well trained and proficient Bretheren are carrying....and they're scattered throughout the Bldg in their various classes...the odds are greater that one of them is near the Primary so you don't end up with another "Newtown".  Again, training is the key here.  Negligent discharges are just that...negligent.  A modern firearm kept in a proper holster in the possession of a well trained and responsible gunowner will not discharge, and the chances an accident occurring is almost...if not..zero.   

With respect to having faith in the Lord to protect us in those situations, to have him fight our battles etc,  I agree with all of that.  We should exercise faith.  I guess good and faithful people can agree to disagree on how best to exercise that faith.  I choose to exercise mine by doing all that's within my power to protect my family,  then exercise faith in the Lord that he will make up the difference during the battle.   For me it falls into that category that's taught in the BoM..."for by grace are we saved, after all we can do...."

Didn’t work for the Saints in the Cane Creek Massacre. Two missionaries and two members were killed, a sister wounded, but one of the boys who was killed shot and killed the mob leader. More missionaries and members would have died if the Condors had not fought back. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[ERMD]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I'm at peace in my mind either way because I am ready to die if that were to happen, which it will, at some point.  I was just talking about what I would prefer.  That people not bring any weapons to Church meetings, permitted or not.

Otherwise, heck, why conceal anything?  Why make it a concealed weapon, or a concealed permit?  Why not just have everyone wear a holster, either the more modern kind that is hidden in by a jacket or on their hips like in the days of the old western "cowboy" towns?

Can't a person with a concealed weapon permit also get a permit to carry a weapon that is not concealed?  Why hide them if you got them?  Some of them are apparently beautiful little things, with pearl handles and nickel plating and such.

Why not just show it off to everybody?  And fire  a few up in the air when you feel giddy?

One way of looking at open carry is that it makes one a target. I personally am not a fan. 

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Exactly the same as yours. 

Well then let me give you a point for that!

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, ERMD said:

One way of looking at open carry is that it makes one a target. I personally am not a fan. 

Yeah, me neither, otherwise I would probably be carrying one to most places I go and then someone who saw me might think I'm a threat and a target and then shoot me simply because they saw that I carried a gun.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

That's a good tactical position to take.  That way if he does start to look like he is getting ready to use it you would be right there to try to stop him.

Or to help him. The overwhelming majority of people who lawfully carry are impeccable citizens who would only draw their weapon in a public place in order to defend themselves or others.

 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I would probably be carrying one to most places I go and then someone who saw me might think I'm a threat and a target and then shoot me simply because they saw that I carried a gun.

Huh? I'm sorry, but this just does not compute. If someone is walking around, lawfully carrying a holstered side arm - not drawing it, not brandishing it, just having it on their person - there is no justifiable reason to shoot that person. Anyone who did something like this would be going to prison for the rest of their life.

Where on earth do you live? Are people in your town really that paranoid about guns that they would slip into the very kind of farcical 'shoot first, ask questions later' tropes that they likely impute upon 'gun nuts?' 

 

[randy]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Didn’t work for the Saints in the Cane Creek Massacre. Two missionaries and two members were killed, a sister wounded, but one of the boys who was killed shot and killed the mob leader. More missionaries and members would have died if the Saints has not fought back. 

I agree!   Way back in the thread I explained that my exercising my faith would be to have the Lord cause my 3" Semi-Auto to be extremely accurate!  I agree with you...we do all we can to prepare practically...and prepare spiritually....when the battle ensues we fight for all we're worth and let the Lord make up the rest if he chooses to.

[randy]

50 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Or to help him. The overwhelming majority of people who lawfully carry are impeccable citizens who would only draw their weapon in a public place in order to defend themselves or others.

 

Huh? I'm sorry, but this just does not compute. If someone is walking around, lawfully carrying a holstered side arm - not drawing it, not brandishing it, just having it on their person - there is no justifiable reason to shoot that person. Anyone who did something like this would be going to prison for the rest of their life.

Where on earth do you live? Are people in your town really that paranoid about guns that they would slip into the very kind of farcical 'shoot first, ask questions later' tropes that they likely impute upon 'gun nuts?' 

 

Exactly!    Also, it seems that Ahab...with all due respect, has no idea on what "open carry" means.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, randy said:

I agree!   Way back in the thread I explained that my exercising my faith would be to have the Lord cause my 3" Semi-Auto to be extremely accurate!  I agree with you...we do all we can to prepare practically...and prepare spiritually....when the battle ensues we fight for all we're worth and let the Lord make up the rest if he chooses to.

What did Joseph do to protect his companions in Carthage?

[randy]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Not necessarily bad guys, but that is 1 of the 2 options available.  People dressed in a law enforcement uniform would more likely be among the good guys.  Absent the uniform, though, before committing a crime, how would you know?

I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of someone who doesn't know whether a guy with a gun is a bad guy or a good guy.  A man who just sees another man with a gun, openly carrying it, perhaps getting ready to use it.  A man with a gun in a store, for example. Or a guy carrying a gun into a move theater, for example.  Or a man walking down the street with a rifle or pistol in his hands for who knows what or whatever reason. ???  A guy with a gun can shoot people, you know.  Would you not worry at all until you saw him start shooting? 

Would you take your children with you into a situation where you saw a man, who you did not know, who was not wearing a law enforcement uniform, who was carrying a gun for who knows what reason?

So you understand,  to Open Carry means to carry the firearm, HOLSTERED at ALL TIMES, unless....unless, that person feels that their life is in grave danger or eminate death, then..and only then are they lawfully able to draw their weapon in their defense.  In no circumstance does open carry allow the person to hold the weapon in their hands.  It must be holstered, or in the case of a long gun, strapped to the back/chest at all times.

[randy]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, me neither, otherwise I would probably be carrying one to most places I go and then someone who saw me might think I'm a threat and a target and then shoot me simply because they saw that I carried a gun.

So I understand you correctly....If you go to Walmart with your family,  and I'm there with three of my grandkids, and I'm "Open Carrying"....and we end up in the same toy aisle ...and I'm showing them some cool drones,  are you seriously thinking I am somehow a threat to you and your family??

[randy]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What did Joseph do to protect his companions in Carthage?

Exactly!  He did what he could to protect his brothers and let the Lord make up the rest!  (think John Taylors pocketwatch)

[randy]

3 hours ago, ERMD said:

One way of looking at open carry is that it makes one a target. I personally am not a fan. 

I can understand this sentiment.  There are some good tactical reasons to choose to open carry, however, it's a personal decision.  I open carry, but not nearly as much as in the past.  One reason being is the irrational fear of some, due in large part by the ever increasing mass shootings.  Depending on where I am going, the season...and what I generally feel about public sentiment at the time..I will choose to "Conceal Carry".  Again, as you know...the purpose is protection of myself and family, as well as my fellow citizens if the situation demands it.  My purpose is not to promote and further encourage irrational fears,  its just the opposite, although at the same time....I am not going to allow someones irrational fears cause me to make changes in how I go about my business/life.

Edited August 28, 2019 by randy

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, randy said:

So I understand you correctly....If you go to Walmart with your family,  and I'm there with three of my grandkids, and I'm "Open Carrying"....and we end up in the same toy aisle ...and I'm showing them some cool drones,  are you seriously thinking I am somehow a threat to you and your family??

The possibility will occur to me.  I don’t think I have ever seen open carry. My family were not into even talking about guns or thinking about hunting, though my dad loved backpacking and Yosemite. 

I would generally assume the person was LEO, but wonder what if because that is what I do.

In my world (which was as far as guns are concerned pretty much formed by TV and movies and anti gun rhetoric in California and suicides of relatives and friends, not claiming it is rational), people who carry guns like to use them and even if not intent in hurting people, may be looking for excuses to be heroes and therefore accidents are more likely to happen or may be in a state of mind to self hurt.

That is what I will be thinking when I first see a gun in reality even when it is my husband’s, most likely to my dying day unless something really dramatically changes that gut feeling. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, randy said:

Exactly!  He did what he could to protect his brothers and let the Lord make up the rest!  (think John Taylors pocketwatch)

I thought the pocketwatch had been proved not broken by a bullet, but his fall.  Has opinion been changed again?

http://www.ldsliving.com/3-Myths-About-the-Early-Church-You-Thought-Were-True/s/64388?page=2#story-content

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

The possibility will occur to me.  I don’t think I have ever seen open carry. My family were not into even talking about guns or thinking about hunting, though my dad loved backpacking and Yosemite. 

I would generally assume the person was LEO, but wonder what if because that is what I do.

You're not alone. It isn't a secret that guns frighten many people. Maybe "frighten" might be too strong a word; in many cases something like "unease" is probably more apt.

I think most people are aware that many of their neighbors own guns and that many people are licensed to carry concealed guns, but this abstract knowledge doesn’t cause much worry.

However, when a gun is visible, it occupies people’s attention in a way that statistical realities do not. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, in and of itself - it's just how we are. 

 

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In my world (which was as far as guns are concerned pretty much formed by TV and movies and anti gun rhetoric in California and suicides of relatives and friends, not claiming it is rational), people who carry guns like to use them and even if not intent in hurting people, may be looking for excuses to be heroes and therefore accidents are more likely to happen or may be in a state of mind to self hurt.

You do not want to get me started on how guns are portrayed on television. Just ask my wife. Many an episode of E.R. has been ruined because I couldn't keep my comments to myself until the end of the show. 

 

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That is what I will be thinking when I first see a gun in reality even when it is my husband’s, most likely to my dying day unless something really dramatically changes that gut feeling. 

Some of that gut feeling, I suspect, can be attributed merely to a lack of exposure, but some of it is just how you react. I would analogize it to the way some people initially react to something like public breast feeding.

Some of the unease may simply be because we aren't accustomed to seeing it - though that is something we can acclimate to the more we are around it. However, some of the way we feel is tied up in a bunch of 'other stuff' which is a complicated mix of experiences we've had growing up which have shaped our views, and those aren't so easily changed. 

With respect to firearms, there is actually an "open carry movement" of people who deliberately wear guns openly as a means of normalizing the behavior. I have my doubts about how successful they will be in the long run, but I guess you never know.