Guns at church policy changed

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How about a happy medium in which a few qualified individuals are allowed to carry the firearm? That equalizes things somewhat with the bad guy(s) so we are not totally sitting ducks. 

How am I supposed to know the difference between the bad guys and the good guys?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, randy said:

You bring up an excellent point.  Criminals by nature are cowards.  They prey on the weak and seek weak and unprotected targets of opportunity.  If you were a criminal and you pull into a QT type of store intent on robbing it, but you notice a police car there...are you going to go ahead and go in and attempt to rob it?  Probably not.  The cop car was a visual deterrent.  If the LEO was in an unmarked vehicle....and you (the bad guy) went in and while scoping the place out noticed the uniformed officer chatting with a clerk.  Would you still attempt the crime? probably not.  Why?  Visual deterrent..LEO.     Same could be said for people who choose to open carry.  Again, criminals are cowards by nature.  They come in and see someone openly carrying....they have to ask themselves...is this guy off duty LEO, former Military, former Navy Seal?  or a barely trained chucklehead who barely knows a revolver from a Semi-Auto.    The point is...visual deterrents have shown that they deter crime.  There have been many interviews of inmates who have stated clearly how, who and where they choose their victims.  RARELY does a criminal actually choose to engage a potential victim who they already know is armed.  Why...because they're cowards at heart.  They choose the weak and unprotected

This cavalier and dismissive attitude of those who have irrational fears of their fellow citizens who choose to exercise their rights...is what contributes to this problem.

In many states...you do NOT need a permit to carry openly,  only concealed.  In my home state of Missouri...you do not need a permit to carry openly or concealed.   But, common sense is what is needed in these times we live in.  It really does go a long way!.

Maybe the answer is to have uniformed LEOs who are off duty volunteer to have.a presence in our meetings as a visible deterrent. Some are allowed to drive their police cars home after their shift; they could park the car in the parking lot. 

[Tacenda]

Please forgive me if this has been discussed, but wouldn't it be advisable for someone to carry a gun in case of an attack, such as a leader that has been trained, or a ward member in law enforcement or any job that they are trained for that in? Like I've read on a thread on FB we are sitting ducks basically, well ward members, I don't go every week.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

How am I supposed to know the difference between the bad guys and the good guys?

 

By bad guys, I mean the perps. 

[Ahab]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

By bad guys, I mean the perps. 

Yeah, them.  If everyone is openly carrying a gun, how am I supposed to know when some guy is about to become a perp... perp is short for perpetrator, right, meaning someone who is committing a crime?

You're not suggesting I wait to see if he starts to shoot people, are you?  Or that I wait to see if he starts to rob a store?  And until then, what, just stand there looking at him until he gets his gun ready to shoot?

[randy]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How about a happy medium in which a few qualified individuals are allowed to carry the firearm? That equalizes things somewhat with the bad guy(s) so we are not totally sitting ducks. 

1)  I wouldn't give it a second thought.

2) I personally wouldn't give it a second thought, but can understand why others could be uncomfortable with that mode of carry.  Again, COMMON SENSE goes along way.  The person who is openly carrying at Church should probably rethink that decision. I want to promote the 2nd Amendment, not do anything that would cast it in a bad light..as an example: walk into a Walmart with body armour and an AR-15 a week after two mass shootings.  That was stupid with a capital S!  Regardless whether it was legal or not, it was stupid!  That guy did NOTHING to promote the cause. 

3) Again, I personally would not have an issue with it.  Simply because a person who is openly carrying a firearm does not give me pause for concern regardless of where I see it.

4) Yes.  Its' their right to do so.  I believe in the right of self protection.  For me personally,  the mode of carry is a personal decision and is based upon several factors. I"m good with whatever decision my fellow citizen makes.

5) Yes, I probably would be.       I would not understand the basis and reasoning of your fear.

 

SORRY...this response was for AHAB!

Edited August 27, 2019 by randy

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When was the last time you were in Utah? We do lock our doors. 

Maybe you have us confused with North Carolina. 

Nah, they talk even funnier than you do.  But it's a play-jure to respond. 

Besides I have not attempted break- ins in either state now for quite a while so how was I supposed to know? 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

How am I supposed to know the difference between the bad guys and the good guys?

 

I am shocked you would ask.  The spirit of course!

Or as the old saying goes- just shoot them all and let God sort them out! 

 

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe the answer is to have uniformed LEOs who are off duty volunteer to have.a presence in our meetings as a visible deterrent. Some are allowed to drive their police cars home after their shift; they could park the car in the parking lot. 

Yes that is very effective.  Hereabouts police departments park extra police cars in bank parking lots in branches that have been hit a few times.   It works.

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Hello Ahab... you gave me a chuckle... Years ago my husband taught me to shoot as his job took him away for days at a time, leaving me alone.  We both enjoyed target practice, and he drummed safety into me.  Now here I am, 79 years old, widowed for 21 years, living alone on the beautiful central Oregon coast 1/2 block to the beach (I walk to the end of my street down some steps onto the sand).  When I sit in my garden, I can sometimes hear the ocean... A few years ago I served as an ordinance worker for six years in the Portland temple.  Every Friday morning I'd get up early and drive the 80 miles into Portland, through some rural/forested areas, and particularly through a dedicated winding 2 lane 10-mile stretch of forest that could be frightening coming home in the dark... So that's when I bought my weapon and started carrying...  and I continue though no longer an ordinance worker...  

GG 

They let you bring the weapon into the temple?

[randy]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, them.  If everyone is openly carrying a gun, how am I supposed to know when some guy is about to become a perp... perp is short for perpetrator, right, meaning someone who is committing a crime?

You're not suggesting I wait to see if he starts to shoot people, are you?  Or that I wait to see if he starts to rob a store?  And until then, what, just stand there looking at him until he gets his gun ready to shoot?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're automatically coming at this from "guns equal bad guys" point of view.   Over these many years...you're 58, I'm 62....I have never had an experience when I was choosing to open carry, have I had anyone come up to me and express their concern,  never have I been reported to management...or have had police called on me due to "man with a gun" report.    Just trying to understand the basis for this fear, which to me seems, so far at least...irrational.  

Perhaps...when I choose to open carry...I look respectable (appearance is important), I do not appear nervous about wearing the weapon, ie; not fidgety, not constantly touching it or rearranging it on my belt. By doing those little things, brings attention to it. People pick up on those things.  So it's important to show that there is nothing going on here..so to speak, not to be self-conscience about it.  I just go about my business.  I talk to people, I don't avoid eye contact with them. Little things.  

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by randy

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, randy said:

1)  I wouldn't give it a second thought.

2) I personally wouldn't give it a second thought, but can understand why others could be uncomfortable with that mode of carry.  Again, COMMON SENSE goes along way.  The person who is openly carrying at Church should probably rethink that decision. I want to promote the 2nd Amendment, not do anything that would cast it in a bad light..as an example: walk into a Walmart with body armour and an AR-15 a week after two mass shootings.  That was stupid with a capital S!  Regardless whether it was legal or not, it was stupid!  That guy did NOTHING to promote the cause. 

3) Again, I personally would not have an issue with it.  Simply because a person who is openly carrying a firearm does not give me pause for concern regardless of where I see it.

4) Yes.  Its' their right to do so.  I believe in the right of self protection.  For me personally,  the mode of carry is a personal decision and is based upon several factors. I"m good with whatever decision my fellow citizen makes.

5) Yes, I probably would be.       I would not understand the basis and reasoning of your fear.

 

SORRY...this response was for AHAB!

I was wondering why you were dressing me down. 😆 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I am shocked you would ask.  The spirit of course!

Or as the old saying goes- just shoot them all and let God sort them out! 

 

Okay, okay, not just me, though.  I am a special case because I do have the spirit with me, always, unlike some other people.  But how is someone else supposed to be able to tell the difference between a bad guy and a good guy if everyone is openly carrying a gun?

You, for example.  What would you do if you started to walk into a store, scratch that, a Sacrament meeting and saw, soon after you entered, someone openly carrying a gun?  And suppose you are someone who doesn't have the spirit with you, always, like me.

[Amulek]

19 minutes ago, randy said:

Correct.  Therein lies the difficulty and the frustration.  

And I appreciate that frustration. I truly do. 

I think what the church is trying to do is just avoid taking on institutional liability for anything that might go wrong in the buildings - similar to what they do with other things such as kitchen use.

And I suspect they know that determined individuals will not be swayed by anything less than a formal / legal prohibition against carrying on church property. So, you'll have active duty LEOs and stubborn CCers who are armed in the event that anything should ever happen - only the latter will be on their own with respect to liability should something go wrong. 

I think that's probably fine though. 

 

Quote

However, as far as Church attendance is concerned...technically speaking it is voluntary,   but is it ...really?? 

I hear you. As a faithful member, I will continue to attend regardless of whatever my personal opinions may be about policies such as these. 

 

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, randy said:

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, them.  If everyone is openly carrying a gun, how am I supposed to know when some guy is about to become a perp... perp is short for perpetrator, right, meaning someone who is committing a crime?

You're not suggesting I wait to see if he starts to shoot people, are you?  Or that I wait to see if he starts to rob a store?  And until then, what, just stand there looking at him until he gets his gun ready to shoot?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're automatically coming at this from "guns equal bad guys" point of view.   Over these many years...you're 58, I'm 62....I have never had an experience when I was choosing to open carry, have I had anyone come up to me and express their concern,  never have I been reported to management...or have had police called on me due to "man with a gun" report.    Just trying to understand the basis for this fear, which to me seems to me, so far at least...irrational.  

I think we can assume that most people who open carry are not perps. Perps would most likely hide their guns. When I see a person with a open carry, I assume it is associated with whatever job they have.  Back in the late 50's my brothers and I all had open carries. 

[randy]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And I appreciate that frustration. I truly do. 

I think what the church is trying to do is just avoid taking on institutional liability for anything that might go wrong in the buildings - similar to what they do with other things such as kitchen use.

And I suspect they know that determined individuals will not be swayed by anything less than a formal / legal prohibition against carrying on church property. So, you'll have active duty LEOs and stubborn CCers who are armed in the event that anything should ever happen - only the latter will be on their own with respect to liability should something go wrong. 

I think that's probably fine though. 

 

I hear you. As a faithful member, I will continue to attend regardless of whatever my personal opinions may be about policies such as these. 

 

Excellent points...and all are taken!!!  

[randy]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think we can assume that most people who open carry are not perps. Perps would most likely hide their guns. When I see a person with a open carry, I assume it is associated with whatever job they have.  Back in the late 50's my brothers and I all had open carries. 

Hahaha!!  THERE YA GO!!  AWESOME!!     The most awesome toy Santa brought me back in 1966 was a "Johnny Seven OMA" machine gun!   OMA=ONE MAN ARMY

Hmmm...now that I look at this pic a little closer....the lil hombre on the far right seems to have the "look"!

Edited August 27, 2019 by randy

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, randy said:

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're automatically coming at this from "guns equal bad guys" point of view.  

Not necessarily bad guys, but that is 1 of the 2 options available.  People dressed in a law enforcement uniform would more likely be among the good guys.  Absent the uniform, though, before committing a crime, how would you know?

5 minutes ago, randy said:

Over these many years...you're 58, I'm 62....I have never had an experience when I was choosing to open carry, have I had anyone come up to me and express their concern,  never have I been reported to management...or have had police called on me due to "man with a gun" report.    Just trying to understand the basis for this fear, which to me seems, so far at least...irrational.  

I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of someone who doesn't know whether a guy with a gun is a bad guy or a good guy.  A man who just sees another man with a gun, openly carrying it, perhaps getting ready to use it.  A man with a gun in a store, for example. Or a guy carrying a gun into a move theater, for example.  Or a man walking down the street with a rifle or pistol in his hands for who knows what or whatever reason. ???  A guy with a gun can shoot people, you know.  Would you not worry at all until you saw him start shooting? 

Would you take your children with you into a situation where you saw a man, who you did not know, who was not wearing a law enforcement uniform, who was carrying a gun for who knows what reason?

[Amulek]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What would you do if you started to walk into a store, scratch that, a Sacrament meeting and saw, soon after you entered, someone openly carrying a gun? 

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "openly carrying a gun." 

As for what I would do - honestly, I would probably think to myself 'Huh, cool pistol' and then walk up and start a conversation. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, randy said:

My feeling is that they took on that duty, when they took action to prevent me from fulfilling that duty.

Perhaps even more so now that they have announced to the world they are prohibiting guns at church. Again there’s an obvious reason mass shootings occur at gun free zones. 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think we can assume that most people who open carry are not perps. Perps would most likely hide their guns. When I see a person with a open carry, I assume it is associated with whatever job they have.  Back in the late 50's my brothers and I all had open carries. 

 Yes it is theoretically possible to assume anything, even that someone carrying a real gun or what looks like a real gun is really not a bad guy at all and would never be someone who would shoot your family or some other people.

You know what they say about assumptions, though, don't you.  I try to avoid them whenever possible and instead just follow the spirit.  But not everybody does that, or is correct about what they are thinking.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Perhaps a little more safe, but not very practical. People come a lot later than 10 minutes late. You would have to have someone assigned to be at the door who knows who all the members of the ward are to let them in.
And even then there could be visitors or members from other wards visiting that you don't know coming late. 
I think I like the don't ask, don't tell idea of just knowing that there is most likely a trained ward member carrying, who can do whatever might need to be done as needed.
Other than that, stuff happens that we sometimes have no control over nor can we prevent.

I didn’t say it was practical. I was only explaining what he meant  as msbukowski evidently didn’t understand him. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "openly carrying a gun." 

If a rifle, holding it with both hands in front of himself, with one hand near the trigger.  Or, if not in that stance, for whatever reason, just holding it with one hand but able to hold it with both hands whenever he wants to do that.

If a pistol, in a holster around his waist with one of his hands near it.  And it looks as if he has full use of his hands and could change positions at any time.

4 minutes ago, Amulek said:

As for what I would do - honestly, I would probably think to myself 'Huh, cool pistol' and then walk up and start a conversation. 

That's a good tactical position to take.  That way if he does start to look like he is getting ready to use it you would be right there to try to stop him.

[blarsen]

On 8/26/2019 at 12:19 PM, Anijen said:

I agree, those are the ones we should worry about. No state, including Utah has a filter for those likely to commit crimes. That would require some clairvoyance beyond their power. However, limiting those who can purchase firearms and limiting those who do not qualify for a CCP is the best thing any state can do right now. This, of course, does not stop a person from illegally obtaining a firearm and using it. The states with the most gun control laws have not been able to control the gun violence, simply because criminals do not obey the laws. 

I remember reading stats when I followed this subject more closely a few years ago to the effect that in cities,  states, and even countries where the most draconian gun laws were implemented, gun crime and violence would shoot up dramatically.  This was documented by a researcher out of the Univ. of Chicago, and was totally unexpected by him.  I should research his study.

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 Yes it is theoretically possible to assume anything, even that someone carrying a real gun or what looks like a real gun is really not a bad guy at all and would never be someone who would shoot your family or some other people.

You know what they say about assumptions, though, don't you.  I try to avoid them whenever possible and instead just follow the spirit.  But not everybody does that, or is correct about what they are thinking.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't want to live my life in fear that someone is going to do something bad to me or my family or friends. Following the spirit is right and a good thing, assuming you are able to have the spirit with you always. Doh! there's that word again!