Guns at church policy changed

[ERMD]

6 minutes ago, mapman said:

I grew up in a household that never owned any guns, and the only time I ever fired a gun was a couple of times at Scout camp, so people saying that they wouldn't go to church if they aren't allowed to carry seems downright bizarre to me. My first reaction to finding out some random member at church had a gun I would definitely feel less safe, and I don't think I'm the only one that would feel that way. My guess would be that some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the probability of being shot at by a criminal in church, and underestimating the chances of accidental injury by random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer. This thread has been woefully devoid of facts, but maybe someone can provide some actual numbers on the probabilities.

I won't take the time to look up the numbers, but in this instance, I think we can rely on media reports.  How many mass shootings in churches, schools, and other "gun-free" zones have we seen in the past few years?  Contrast that with how many people shot by a CHL-holder responding to a shooter.  

Google "Sutherland Springs shooting."  That occured 20 miles from my hospital.  My rural emergency department treated several of the casualties that were not killed outright by the shooter.  The shooter was taken out by a civilian who lives across the street from the church.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ERMD

[Anijen]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's curious in California to visit a gun store.  In a store where guns are not sold- grocery stores, Walmart, etc.  people often may be rude and try to cut in front of you in line, complain about things to the clerks in loud voices, or go with 30 items to the "15 Items or Less" cashier etc.  You just stand in line and roll your eyes.

Love your entire post, but will only comment on the above.

I do not know of any grocery store that sells guns, even Walmart, will only sell a shotgun or type of hunting rifle. they will sell no hand guns, no AR's, no muskets, no fun... you're quite right politeness goes up several notches when in a gun store.

[randy]

10 minutes ago, mapman said:

I grew up in a household that never owned any guns, and the only time I ever fired a gun was a couple of times at Scout camp, so people saying that they wouldn't go to church if they aren't allowed to carry seems downright bizarre to me. My first reaction to finding out some random member at church had a gun I would definitely feel less safe, and I don't think I'm the only one that would feel that way. My guess would be that some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the probability of being shot at by a criminal in church, and underestimating the chances of accidental injury by random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer. This thread has been woefully devoid of facts, but maybe someone can provide some actual numbers on the probabilities.

My daughter inferred this same thing when she told me last year when our family was having a discussion about this very thing.  Said she mockingly..."do you really think you're going to be ambushed at Walmart...really?"    As I mentioned earlier on in this discussion...the comments about "being in a Western movie or having a hero fantasy"  ignores with the obligatory eyeroll and dismissive wave of the hand...that we should not be able to take reasonable, rational and disciplined approach to our own personal safety and that of our family.

If you would,  explain why you would feel less safe if you became aware of someone carrying concealed at Church.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by randy

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

What if they only have those skinny spanish hymnals?  

Throwing 3 or 4 at a time in rapid succession would work nicely, I think.  From crouched down behind the nearest pew, of course.

And let's not forget about shoes.  And purses, too.  Anything to try to knock the gun out of the shooter's hands or to at least distract him while other people move in on him to get the man down!

[Ahab]

I propose that we have some videos made of how to act in this type of situation.  In my mind I can envision all kinds of things going on from several directions at the same time.  Books and chairs and other things from all over the place.

Some people may actually need to see a video version or two.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Ahab

[mapman]

2 minutes ago, ERMD said:

I won't take the time to look up the numbers, but in this instance, I think we can rely on media reports.  How many mass shootings in churches, schools, and other "gun-free" zones have we seen in the past few years?  Contrast that with how many people shot by a CHL-holder responding to a shooter.  

Google "Sutherland Springs shooting."  That occured 20 miles from my hospital.  My rural emergency department treated several of the casualties that were not killed outright by the shooter.  The shooter was taken out by a civilian who lives across the street from the church.

I don't disagree that mass shootings have increased, but it is still hardly a common occurrence. The news cycle likes to promote paranoia over it though, which unfortunately is exactly what these terrorists want. In reality, unless you're a member of a gang, you're probably going to go your whole life without ever seeing someone get shot at. I'm trying to respect other people's experiences, but I'm just having a hard time understanding why anyone would ever live their life feeling afraid of getting shot at church. I don't worry every time I take a shower that I'm going to slip and break my skull open even though that is probably much more likely to happen.

[mapman]

5 minutes ago, randy said:

My daughter inferred this same thing when she told me last year when our family was having a discussion about this very thing.  Said she mockingly..."do you really think you're going to be ambushed at Walmart...really?"    As I mentioned earlier on in this discussion...the comments about "being in a Western movie or having a hero fantasy"  ignores with the obligatory eyeroll and dismissive wave of the hand...that we should not be able to take reasonable, rational and disciplined approach to our own personal safety and that of our family.

If you would,  explain why you would feel less safe if you became aware of someone carrying concealed at Church.

 

 

I admit it isn't necessarily a completely rational response, but guns are things designed to kill and I feel uncomfortable around them when they aren't in controlled situations. I respect that you are a responsible gun owner, and hope that most people are, but the amount of accidental killings that happen makes me think not everyone is. I'm definitely in favor of better training for gun owners, but the church isn't responsible for making that happen.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Love your entire post, but will only comment on the above.

I do not know of any grocery store that sells guns, even Walmart, will only sell a shotgun or type of hunting rifle. they will sell no hand guns, no AR's, no muskets, no fun... you're quite right politeness goes up several notches when in a gun store.

First I have to tell you that I have loved your avatar over the years.  That is exactly the way I feel most of the time on the internet.

Not quite sure what you mean though- here in Cali they do not sell guns at Walmart, as they do in Utah, my intent was to name places where no guns were sold.  Period.

I spend a lot of time in Texas which is a different world as far as guns go.  The first thing a cop said to me when I got pulled over once in Arizona was "Are there any firearms in the car"? and he was also scanning the passengers looking for facial expression changes.

In Texas, the first question was "License and registration, please- and do you have a concealed carry permit for any weapons you are carrying?"

It's a whole different world!  In Texas the assumption is pretty much that you DO have weapons- the question is just whether or not they are legal.

I would be interested in hearing similar comments about how things differ in Texas- I suppose that would not be a derail.....  ?

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Throwing 3 or 4 at a time in rapid succession would work nicely, I think.  From crouched down behind the nearest pew, of course.

And let's not forget about shoes.  And purses, too.  Anything to try to knock the gun out of the shooter's hands or to at least distract him while other people move in on him to get the man down!

I have noticed though that it is hard to wrap a hymnal around your head....  and they are even harder to see through.... 

 

[ERMD]

8 minutes ago, mapman said:

I don't disagree that mass shootings have increased, but it is still hardly a common occurrence. The news cycle likes to promote paranoia over it though, which unfortunately is exactly what these terrorists want. In reality, unless you're a member of a gang, you're probably going to go your whole life without ever seeing someone get shot at. I'm trying to respect other people's experiences, but I'm just having a hard time understanding why anyone would ever live their life feeling afraid of getting shot at church. I don't worry every time I take a shower that I'm going to slip and break my skull open even though that is probably much more likely to happen.

The point is not that they have increased, but that they occur; shootings by CHL holders have not (to date).  It's not a matter of living a life feeling afraid, it's a matter of being prepared for something that very reasonably could happen.

 

[Amulek]

6 minutes ago, mapman said:

I grew up in a household that never owned any guns, and the only time I ever fired a gun was a couple of times at Scout camp, so people saying that they wouldn't go to church if they aren't allowed to carry seems downright bizarre to me. My first reaction to finding out some random member at church had a gun I would definitely feel less safe, and I don't think I'm the only one that would feel that way. My guess would be that some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the probability of being shot at by a criminal in church, and underestimating the chances of accidental injury by random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer. This thread has been woefully devoid of facts, but maybe someone can provide some actual numbers on the probabilities.

My casual observation is that, in discussions such as these, people tend to generalize their own experiences onto others. 

In your case, you grew up in a household that never owned guns and only rarely handled guns personally. I think that is probably a big part of why you are concerned about "accidental injury by [a] random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer." Your stereotype of a gun owner is a big part of what is driving your perception.

Contrast that with someone like me, whose father was a competition marksman (both rifle and pistol) in the military and who taught me to shoot starting when I was eight years old. I guarantee I have put more lead downrange than your average LEO. Seriously, I have spent a lot of time at the range over the years, which is why your stereotype of gun owners sounds so hollow to me.

The guys (and girls) I've met over the years are (overwhelmingly) genuinely good, responsible, salt of the earth people - many of whom are more than happy to never kill anything more than a few trees needed for their lifetime supply of paper targets. You're not going to have an "accidental injury" by a CC holder at church, because he isn't going to pull out his gun unless he intentionally means to use it. 

 

[Amulek]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

24 minutes ago, Amulek said:

What if they only have those skinny spanish hymnals?  

Throwing 3 or 4 at a time in rapid succession would work nicely, I think.  From crouched down behind the nearest pew, of course.

This better not be some kind of subtle argument in favor of developing disk golfing skills. No, that is a line I will not cross.  

 

[CA Steve]

39 minutes ago, randy said:

Why are you laboring under the impression that only LE are professionally trained and have the necessary skill sets?  In many instances, the average responsible gun owner actually accumulates more range time and has a higher level of proficiency than the average LEO.

I would be curious to ask your LEO friend what it was those people actually DID to cause him to be uncomfortable.   Did they threaten him? Brandish their weapons as they drove by?  What did they do?

Again...the percentage of LEO's that have actually been in a gunfight is extremely low.  I think we've established the fact that no one, LEO's included...know exactly how they will respond in an active shooter situation.  I believe that most responsible civilian gunowners would be able to react with the degree of professionalism and discipline needed.  I believe LEO would as well.  We need to work in concert with each other, and not have this notion that we need to expect LEO to be bodyguards when that is NOT what their primary job is.

No solution is perfect and training obviously helps. And I have already acknowledged that not all LEO are equal regardless of their training.

I did not ask him why he felt uncomfortable, but if I were to infer what he meant, it would be that he did not trust the average gun owner to be as responsible as some here suggest they are. Perhaps he has had some experience in that area.

 

Quote

I believe that most responsible civilian gunowners would be able to react with the degree of professionalism and discipline needed

When phrased like this, I lean a bit more toward agreeing, but unfortunately I think this is a No True Scottsman fallacy in that everyone is a responsible gun owner until the gun is used incorrectly.

I am fine with people owning guns, I am not trying to take away that right. I also feel like I should have the right to decide under what circumstances I and my family have to be around someone who is carrying a gun. 

 

Edited to add. I did like the suggestion a few pages back where the Bishop would select a few people approved to have a weapon in church. I have no problem with that either, but frankly I don't want to sit down in church next to Brother John "I have a Bomb shelter in my back yard" Anderson and have to worry about if he is carrying that Glock he is always bragging about.

Edited August 26, 2019 by CA Steve

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, mapman said:

I grew up in a household that never owned any guns, and the only time I ever fired a gun was a couple of times at Scout camp, so people saying that they wouldn't go to church if they aren't allowed to carry seems downright bizarre to me. My first reaction to finding out some random member at church had a gun I would definitely feel less safe, and I don't think I'm the only one that would feel that way. My guess would be that some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the probability of being shot at by a criminal in church, and underestimating the chances of accidental injury by random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer. This thread has been woefully devoid of facts, but maybe someone can provide some actual numbers on the probabilities.

Probabilities of it NOT happening are irrelevant- this discussion as I see it is what happens when the probability is 1.

It is called "preparation for a worst case scenario" not how likely it is for that scenario to actually happen.

It's why they have flotation devices on airplanes.   How many lives have those saved in the last 20 years?

Should they therefore not have them?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I have noticed though that it is hard to wrap a hymnal around your head....  and they are even harder to see through.... 

 

Yes most people do have a head that is larger than a hymnal.  And the fact that you can't see through them very well is what makes them a good thing to throw at an active shooter.

Have you mastered the art of throwing a hymnal to get it to hit hard where you are aiming to throw it?  We should allow more practice time for that when we do our active shooter drills.

And btw I grew up in Texas.

[Amulek]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

In a store where guns are not sold- grocery stores, Walmart, etc.  people often may be rude and try to cut in front of you in line, complain about things to the clerks in loud voices, or go with 30 items to the "15 Items or Less" cashier etc.  You just stand in line and roll your eyes.

I know. That's one of my personal pet peeves as well.

It should say "15 Items of Fewer."  

 

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

This better not be some kind of subtle argument in favor of developing disk golfing skills. No, that is a line I will not cross.  

 

Anytime I have thrown a book (not often I admit) they have opened up and fluttered a lot and virtually never it the target..  Opening up is like putting on air brakes..... and they tend to go straight down from there!

[Oliblish]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Obviously you are clueless about people who concealed carry.

I don't think we can make generalizations about all concealed carry permit holders.  I am sure plenty of them are responsible people, but some are kind of scary.   

I know a number of responsible gun owners that have permits.  But at a place I used to work I knew of two individuals with permits who made me very nervous.  I don't know what the requirements are to get a permit here in Utah, but I would like to see them tightened up a bit.

[randy]

6 minutes ago, mapman said:

I admit it isn't necessarily a completely rational response, but guns are things designed to kill and I feel uncomfortable around them when they aren't in controlled situations. I respect that you are a responsible gun owner, and hope that most people are, but the amount of accidental killings that happen makes me think not everyone is. I'm definitely in favor of better training for gun owners, but the church isn't responsible for making that happen.

Thank you..and I respect your feelings on this.  I can understand how not being around guns early on in life has contributed to your feeling uncomfortable around them, and see that as a natural consequence.  You are correct when you say there are accidental shootings etc. and it breaks your heart when you read about them, and the circumstances leading up to the accident,  and the common sense actions that could've prevented them.  Almost always, it can be boiled down to lack of training and understanding the firearm. Ex:  when you take the magazine out of the Semi-auto hangun...its unloaded.  WRONG!  There very well may be a round in the chamber and the gun can still fire without the magazine loaded.  So many people die each year because of that very thing.   

I realize this is a very sensitive subject, and one that most people have very very strong opinions on.  It's good to have this discussion though!

[Anijen]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

First I have to tell you that I have loved your avatar over the years.  That is exactly the way I feel most of the time on the internet.

I used to have Mr. Incredible typing with his two fingers, but when I saw this one I couldn't resist and have had it for a long time now.

 

Quote

 

In Texas, the first question was "License and registration, please- and do you have a concealed carry permit for any weapons you are carrying?" It's a whole different world!  In Texas the assumption is pretty much that you DO have weapons- the question is just whether or not they are legal.

 

Yes, each state makes their own gun laws. I haven't been to Texas in a long time, but I agree Texas has the reputation that everyone owns a gun.

Here in Nebraska, a person with a CCP has a distinguishing mark (star symbol) on their drivers licence that tells the officer that this person holds or held a CCP. Also when pulled over if you are a CCP holder and are carrying at the time you are pulled over you have to inform the officer you are armed. I do not like that law at all. There are Terry Stop laws and I believe telling an officer if you are armed gives a LEO reasonable suspicion, thus, a right to search you, and your vehicle absent a warrant. This, to me, takes away the 4th Amendment requirement of probable cause for a warrant, which is a higher standard than reasonable suspicion. Meaning they can do a search without a warrant, and without probable cause. Although I believe safety is an excellent reason for Terry Stops, it could give a rogue cop, high on his mantle of authority, cause to be overly aggressive in his stop. All they would need to defend themselves is the words "I knew he was armed and believed him to be dangerous."  I have many African-American friends who hate this law as well because they already feel that they have been violated physically, emotionally, judicially, etc., by over aggressive police officers.  

[mapman]

8 minutes ago, ERMD said:

The point is not that they have increased, but that they occur; shootings by CHL holders have not (to date).  It's not a matter of living a life feeling afraid, it's a matter of being prepared for something that very reasonably could happen.

 

I have a hard time believing that concealed carriers have never killed people accidentally.

My whole point is that getting shot at church is not something that "very reasonably could happen." Sure, it's theoretically a remote possibility, but the debate is whether the proposed solution creates more problems than it solves. The church leaders at least clearly decided that having random church members try to defend against mass shooters that probably will never show up wasn't a good idea.

[mapman]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Probabilities of it NOT happening are irrelevant- this discussion as I see it is what happens when the probability is 1.

It is called "preparation for a worst case scenario" not how likely it is for that scenario to actually happen.

It's why they have flotation devices on airplanes.   How many lives have those saved in the last 20 years?

Should they therefore not have them?

It is a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than a flotation device when mishandled.

[mapman]

8 minutes ago, randy said:

Thank you..and I respect your feelings on this.  I can understand how not being around guns early on in life has contributed to your feeling uncomfortable around them, and see that as a natural consequence.  You are correct when you say there are accidental shootings etc. and it breaks your heart when you read about them, and the circumstances leading up to the accident,  and the common sense actions that could've prevented them.  Almost always, it can be boiled down to lack of training and understanding the firearm. Ex:  when you take the magazine out of the Semi-auto hangun...its unloaded.  WRONG!  There very well may be a round in the chamber and the gun can still fire without the magazine loaded.  So many people die each year because of that very thing.   

I realize this is a very sensitive subject, and one that most people have very very strong opinions on.  It's good to have this discussion though!

Yeah, I'm trying to understand where people are coming from. Guns really are pretty much completely irrelevant to my life, so it feels like a different world to me when I run into them. My girlfriend told me the other day that her dad wants to go shooting shotguns with me some time, and I don't know how to respond to that because it really doesn't sound fun to me. Maybe we could do archery because I enjoy that a lot, lol.

Anyways, I appreciate you sharing your opinions and experiences. My hope is just that everyone feels welcome at church.

[ERMD]

13 minutes ago, mapman said:

I have a hard time believing that concealed carriers have never killed people accidentally.

My whole point is that getting shot at church is not something that "very reasonably could happen." Sure, it's theoretically a remote possibility, but the debate is whether the proposed solution creates more problems than it solves. The church leaders at least clearly decided that having random church members try to defend against mass shooters that probably will never show up wasn't a good idea.

I'm not aware of any reports of a CHL holder killing a bystander in an active shooter situation.  I am aware of dozens of people killed by active shooters, as well as shooters neutralized by CHL holders before they could kill or kill more.  I have treated many victims of shooters.  I choose to not be a victim or to watch helplessly as someone kills my family.

I'm no vigilante.  My first priority is to protect my family, and then myself; but if I'm in a situation where someone is killing innocents, I will not be a spectator.  I have extensive training.  Hope is not a strategy.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ERMD

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes most people do have a head that is larger than a hymnal.  And the fact that you can't see through them very well is what makes them a good thing to throw at an active shooter.

Have you mastered the art of throwing a hymnal to get it to hit hard where you are aiming to throw it?  We should allow more practice time for that when we do our active shooter drills.

And btw I grew up in Texas.

Oh

THAT explains it!