Guns at church policy changed

[Anijen]

56 minutes ago, CV75 said:

By "fearful" I mean those who are not exactly rational in their perceptions and who might have a hair trigger as a result.

Good clarification, I thought you meant those who are fearful of becoming a victim.

 

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For example, when you say "gang members," do you mean brothers and sisters in your ward that you once crossed professionally?

No, I mean actual gang members, off the street, who were in jail awaiting trials for whatever they did wrong. I was with the County Attorneys Office interviewing to see if any would turn over state evidence. I had my share of death threats.

 

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What do you recommend a ward member do who routinely receives death threats?

Call the police. If it is a likely threat that imminently may happen, then go buy a gun, get trained, apply for a CCP. This advice is especially for women. I have also a nice aluminum bat under my bed, however if a big man, high on drugs, breaks into the house with intent to harm my wife or daughters a hand gun is the best equalizer for them. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I assume then you would be quite comfortable with me sitting next to your family in a crowded sacrament meeting and leaving the decision of when to use a gun and how, up to me, correct? Is that the kind of church meeting you want to attend? A few weeks ago at a gun range I did hit the target occasionally.

The answer to your question @CA Steve, is yes.  I live in Colorado, where around 10% of residents have a conceal-carry permit.  More than 400,000 of us.  We're surrounded by law abiding carrying people wherever we go, and we have been for several decades.  Yes, I'm quite comfortable with a) Colorado's permitting process, b) not knowing who's carrying and who isn't, and c) not being the only person there able to respond effectively should some dangerous person start killing people.  

The general mindset of law-abiding carriers is "I am responsible for any bullet that leaves my gun, and everything that happens because of it." 

Yes, that is the kind of church meeting I want to attend.  It's the kind of church meeting I've been attending for a decade.  Not sure what change the new wording will have, but I'm absolutly positive it will not mean fewer bad guys carrying guns.

Edited August 26, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[ERMD]

I can't think of anyone in my ward in Texas who may not comply with this policy.

One of our members is an FBI agent, firearms instructor, SWAT team member who is said to have conducted classes on how to deal with active shooters for some individuals in the ward, by invitation.  No idea who any of those people would be.

[randy]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

As a compromise , the Church could make all new hymnals and bench pads out of Kevlar. 😏

Honestly, one has a much greater chance of being hurt in the car going to and from church every time than a church shooting. 

True enough...but yet it's happening more and more.    Most LE go their entire career never having to draw their weapon in an actual gunfight.  That is good.  But, they still need to prepare and train for that eventuality.  So should we.

[Anijen]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was told by someone that in Utah, a place (like a mall or a movie theater) cannot say 'firearms prohibited' unless they provide a locked place to put them in.  Is that true?

No, any business can prohibit guns in their stores. You will often see a no guns allowed sign near the entrance. Because it is a private business they can make the rules of prohibiting guns. If they do so, they do not have to supply a gun safe. 

CCP holders know where it is legal to carry and where it isn't (typically, not legal in federal buildings, churchs, schools). CCP holders, generally know the businesses they patronage if guns are prohibited and if they carry but need to go into that business, they will usually keep their gun in a small gun safe or hidden somewhere in their car. Few will still go into the business (e.g. theater) with it still concealed on their person. They will usually make sure it stays concealed so as not to frighten another customer.

A wonderful app called Legal Heat will give all state laws. It was started by 3 return missionaries, who all became lawyers, right there in Utah. A wonderful app.

[randy]

...cant help but reflect back on that faithful pioneer family in Nauvoo back in the day....THANK YOU  Brownings!!!

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Yes, I had posted this exact site earlier. And yes, the CoJCoLDS has complied with the notice statute.

Missed that

[randy]

2 minutes ago, Anijen said:

No, any business can prohibit guns in their stores. You will often see a no guns allowed sign near the entrance. Because it is a private business they can make the rules of prohibiting guns. If they do so, they do not have to supply a gun safe. 

CCP holders know where it is legal to carry and where it isn't (typically, not legal in federal buildings, churchs, schools). CCP holders, generally know the businesses they patronage if guns are prohibited and if they carry but need to go into that business, they will usually keep their gun in a small gun safe or hidden somewhere in their car. Few will still go into the business (e.g. theater) with it still concealed on their person. They will usually make sure it stays concealed so as not to frighten another customer.

A wonderful app called Legal Heat will give all state laws. It was started by 3 return missionaries, who all became lawyers, right there in Utah. A wonderful app.

You bring up an interesting point when you say "They will usually make sure it stays concealed so as not to frighten another customer".     Do you feel that the average citizen is "frightened" upon seeing another person carrying concealed (printing or accidently exposing the firearm) or do you feel the average citizen reacts more with a sense of security?     

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Fun fact: It's been legal for permit holders to carry concealed in Utah's schools, for like two decades.  I remember this law change as I was moving out of Utah in 1999.

https://bci.utah.gov/concealed-firearm/general-information/concealed-firearm-permit-frequently-asked-questions/

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As a permit holder, exactly where can I carry or not carry a handgun?

The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed.  The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools. Permit holders can not carry a firearm into federal or state restricted areas i.e. any airport secured area, federal facilities, courts, correctional & mental health facilities, law enforcement secured areas, a house of worship or private residence where notice given and/or posted, any secured area in which firearms are prohibited and notice posted, or otherwise prohibited by state of federal law.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm a strong believer in the second amendment. But if the Lord is asking us to not bring lethal weapons to Church, we should obey Him. If we have to have the faith of the Anti Nephi Lehis so be it.

 

 

[Anijen]

40 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Unfortunately some CCP holders don't have training.

This wouldn't be the case in Utah or Nebraska. Both of these states, along with the back ground checks and other purchasing requirements (i.e. no felonies, etc.) require class time training to get a CCP. Here, in Nebraska (go Big Red), we are required to take 16 hours of training (over two days eight hours each day). We have to bring our own firearm and around 200 rounds of ammo to be used in that training, and that training is to be done every five years (which is the average time a CCP is good for).

 

[ERMD]

11 minutes ago, randy said:

...cant help but reflect back on that faithful pioneer family in Nauvoo back in the day....THANK YOU  Brownings!!!

God Bless John Moses Browning.

 

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Now, don't be mean.  I see her worry, don't you?  As it turns out, most people will dive for the floor, leaving a clearer field of fire at the perp.

Unfortunately some CCP holders don't have training. And even cops don't necessarily do the proper thing in a shootout.  My dad was LAPD for a time, and in a couple of hairy situations he discovered that with all his training he might be more a liability than an asset (a former Marine, too), so resigned and did something else for a living.

 And not everyone has common sense -- it isn't as common as one might think.

Well I hate to hold myself out as a good example of anything because I really have no reason to do so for much of anything.

BUT I have trained myself even at the range to double check - especially on outdoor ranges or just in the woods- to look out for rocks and anything in the background with every single shot.   Here in So Cal if you are shooting steel jacketed ammo and hit a rock it can generate enough of a spark to actually start a brush fire.   It has happened.

But I have never been in a live situation with bullets incoming so who knows if it would work then

Sorry for being mean, if I was, Calm

Edited August 26, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Anijen]

9 minutes ago, randy said:

You bring up an interesting point when you say "They will usually make sure it stays concealed so as not to frighten another customer".     Do you feel that the average citizen is "frightened" upon seeing another person carrying concealed (printing or accidently exposing the firearm) or do you feel the average citizen reacts more with a sense of security?     

I really can't say. When I was younger working at Howard Johnsons (across from Temple Square), we would have conferences, some displaying very valuable items. Some of those distributors wore their guns in the open (this is called open carry). I know you knew the term, just clarifying for those who do not. I was never bothered at all by it, I was 17-24 when I worked there (before and after my mission). I am sure there were other distributors who might have concealed carried.

Today, is a different time, I think, yes, some would be frightened to see someone openly carrying a firearm. Overall though, when I have opened carried, no one seemed affronted by it. I have actually had a few persons thank me for exercising my 2nd Amendment right. I admit those few times I have opened carry it was in conservative states (Utah, the Dakotas).

I have been pulled over three times while CC and Nebraska law states that I have to tell the officer if I am doing so (a terrible law IMO). When I told the officer that I was carrying they all thought it was cool. I did not get a ticket but got warnings all three times. 

[RevTestament]

15 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm a strong believer in the second amendment. But if the Lord is asking us to not bring lethal weapons to Church, we should obey Him. If we have to have the faith of the Anti Nephi Lehis so be it.

Much greater faith will be required in the future. The day will soon be upon us that we need to learn to let the Lord fight our battles.

[randy]

12 minutes ago, Anijen said:

This wouldn't be the case in Utah or Nebraska. Both of these states, along with the back ground checks and other purchasing requirements (i.e. no felonies, etc.) require class time training to get a CCP. Here, in Nebraska (go Big Red), we are required to take 16 hours of training (over two days eight hours each day). We have to bring our own firearm and around 200 rounds of ammo to be used in that training, and that training is to be done every five years (which is the average time a CCP is good for).

 

I think perhaps when he says "CCP Holders don't have training" he is referring to follow-on training after receiving their CCP.  That is the training that I have been referring to.  The training received during CCP certification is only a start...it should in no way IMO be considered adequate.  To become and stay proficient takes continuous range time, and to reach a level where a person would feel they could perform professionally in a high stress engagement take much more training that that.  But, any training is good.  Baby steps.

[randy]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Much greater faith will be required in the future. The day will soon be upon us that we need to learn to let the Lord fight our battles.

Does not the Lord expect us to do all we can to protect our families from harm?  I would hope to exercise my faith that I would expect the Lord to sharpen my aim with my  3" Auto out to 50-75 yrds!   Then I know he's fighting my battles...after all I can do!

To be clear...I am not making light of your comment here.  It's true!  My point is in "how" the Lord will fight our battles. I don't believe it will be in the sense that we will just be standing around expecting him to do all the heavy lifting.

Edited August 26, 2019 by randy

[CA Steve]

37 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The answer to your question @CA Steve, is yes.  I live in Colorado, where around 10% of residents have a conceal-carry permit.  More than 400,000 of us.  We're surrounded by law abiding carrying people wherever we go, and we have been for several decades.  Yes, I'm quite comfortable with a) Colorado's permitting process, b) not knowing who's carrying and who isn't, and c) not being the only person there able to respond effectively should some dangerous person start killing people.  

The general mindset of law-abiding carriers is "I am responsible for any bullet that leaves my gun, and everything that happens because of it." 

Yes, that is the kind of church meeting I want to attend.  It's the kind of church meeting I've been attending for a decade.  Not sure what change the new wording will have, but I'm absolutly positive it will not mean fewer bad guys carrying guns.

Well while I appreciate the vote of confidence, the reality is you have no idea who I am and what my capabilities are, especially under fire. So while you may be comfortable that the stranger next to you is carrying a concealed weapon or even one openly, without knowing anything about him/her, I most definitely am not. My ex-home teacher is retired LEO who recently moved to Coeur d'Alene Idaho. I ran into him the other day at his daughters wedding reception and asked him how he liked it up there. He responded he was moving back and one of the primary reasons he cited was because he was very uncomfortable with so many people carrying guns.

I would be interested in what anyone here who is current or ex law enforcement thinks of allowing members to carry guns at church who are not LEO. And I would be even more interested in hearing the opinions of someone who has actually faced gunfire in combat or LEO, what they feel about increasing the number of guns in church. I honestly don't think most of us would react with the calmness and precision we think we would.

[RevTestament]

1 minute ago, randy said:

Does not the Lord expect us to do all we can to protect our families from harm?  I would hope to exercise my faith that I would expect the Lord to sharpen my aim with my  3" Auto out to 50-75 yrds!   Then I know he's fighting my battles...after all I can do!

I will do everything necessary to protect my family, but sometimes we are required to lay down our lives for our brethren.

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Anijen said:

This wouldn't be the case in Utah or Nebraska. Both of these states, along with the back ground checks and other purchasing requirements (i.e. no felonies, etc.) require class time training to get a CCP. Here, in Nebraska (go Big Red), we are required to take 16 hours of training (over two days eight hours each day). We have to bring our own firearm and around 200 rounds of ammo to be used in that training, and that training is to be done every five years (which is the average time a CCP is good for).

 

California has another way of handling it.

Give CCP's to virtually no one but LEOs.    The People's Republic of Cali makes you guys look like the Wild West. 

So pretty much if you carry any firearm anywhere you go to jail unless you have it in a locked box and unloaded with the ammo stashed separately in another locked box.  And if you get stopped, you better be going hunting, in season, or to the range or coming home, or some other legal excuse for having a gun in a car, and it all better be out of the reach of any occupants. 

No gun racks on pick-up trucks here! 

 

 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Or even the more likely result you miss the guy completely and the bullet keeps on bulletting.

Quite right. That is definitely a valid concern. I was going to mention that originally, but the comment I was responding to specified hitting the intended target, so I changed directions and brought up what might happen if you successfully hit your target yet the bullet has enough velocity to continue on and hit someone else as well. 

 

 

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More bullets miss than hit even when trained professional shoot. Why assume Mom and Dad and Nehor  are going to do better?

Depends on the agency, but "trained professional" is overselling it a bit in many circumstances. The firearms proficiency requirements for many agencies - including the FBI and CIA - are not terribly demanding. 

 

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I really can't say. When I was younger working at Howard Johnsons (across from Temple Square), we would have conferences, some displaying very valuable items. Some of those distributors wore their guns in the open (this is called open carry). I know you knew the term, just clarifying for those who do not. I was never bothered at all by it, I was 17-24 when I worked there (before and after my mission). I am sure there were other distributors who might have concealed carried.

Today, is a different time, I think, yes, some would be frightened to see someone openly carrying a firearm. Overall though, when I have opened carried, no one seemed affronted by it. I have actually had a few persons thank me for exercising my 2nd Amendment right. I admit those few times I have opened carry it was in conservative states (Utah, the Dakotas).

I have been pulled over three times while CC and Nebraska law states that I have to tell the officer if I am doing so (a terrible law IMO). When I told the officer that I was carrying they all thought it was cool. I did not get a ticket but got warnings all three times. 

It's curious in California to visit a gun store.  In a store where guns are not sold- grocery stores, Walmart, etc.  people often may be rude and try to cut in front of you in line, complain about things to the clerks in loud voices, or go with 30 items to the "15 Items or Less" cashier etc.  You just stand in line and roll your eyes.

But in a gun store, everyone is perfectly polite, with "Yessir". "Nosir" etc and if they bump into you, apologies are profuse.  "No sir, go ahead, you were here first".

It's really fairly hilarious.  First of all, all the employees are armed and second of all, it is a good bet that many more in the store are carrying concealed even if it is illegally.

It makes a difference.  

Edited August 26, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mapman]

I grew up in a household that never owned any guns, and the only time I ever fired a gun was a couple of times at Scout camp, so people saying that they wouldn't go to church if they aren't allowed to carry seems downright bizarre to me. My first reaction to finding out some random member at church had a gun I would definitely feel less safe, and I don't think I'm the only one that would feel that way. My guess would be that some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the probability of being shot at by a criminal in church, and underestimating the chances of accidental injury by random brother who thinks he's in a Western movie or fantasizes about being a hero who kills a mass-murderer. This thread has been woefully devoid of facts, but maybe someone can provide some actual numbers on the probabilities.

[randy]

5 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Well while I appreciate the vote of confidence, the reality is you have no idea who I am and what my capabilities are, especially under fire. So while you may be comfortable that the stranger next to you is carrying a concealed weapon or even one openly, without knowing anything about him/her, I most definitely am not. My ex-home teacher is retired LEO who recently moved to Coeur d'Alene Idaho. I ran into him the other day at his daughters wedding reception and asked him how he liked it up there. He responded he was moving back and one of the primary reasons he cited was because he was very uncomfortable with so many people carrying guns.

I would be interested in what anyone here who is current or ex law enforcement thinks of allowing members to carry guns at church who are not LEO. And I would be even more interested in hearing the opinions of someone who has actually faced gunfire in combat or LEO, what they feel about increasing the number of guns in church. I honestly don't think most of us would react with the calmness and precision we think we would.

Why are you laboring under the impression that only LE are professionally trained and have the necessary skill sets?  In many instances, the average responsible gun owner actually accumulates more range time and has a higher level of proficiency than the average LEO.

I would be curious to ask your LEO friend what it was those people actually DID to cause him to be uncomfortable.   Did they threaten him? Brandish their weapons as they drove by?  What did they do?

Again...the percentage of LEO's that have actually been in a gunfight is extremely low.  I think we've established the fact that no one, LEO's included...know exactly how they will respond in an active shooter situation.  I believe that most responsible civilian gunowners would be able to react with the degree of professionalism and discipline needed.  I believe LEO would as well.  We need to work in concert with each other, and not have this notion that we need to expect LEO to be bodyguards when that is NOT what their primary job is.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

How about hymnals?  Maybe just carry one of those at all times?

What if they only have those skinny spanish hymnals?