Guns at church policy changed

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Anijen said:

Not in Nebraska (where I live) and according to Utah law you cannot either. See here. 

The following churches have notified the Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI, see here)  of their intent to prohibit firearms in their “houses of worship” in Utah. Wasatch Presbyterian Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So, those pastors and Bishops cannot give permission  independently from those church organizations.  

 

After notice, means any communication (e.g. oral, written, recorded); personally communicated to, church organization, operator of the house of worship, owner, leesess, or person with lawful right of possession of a private residence, or by a person who has legal right to act for that person. Therefore, the announcement by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is valid notice to its members.

I was told by someone that in Utah, a place (like a mall or a movie theater) cannot say 'firearms prohibited' unless they provide a locked place to put them in.  Is that true?

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

In my Ward, the Bishop has designated 3 specific members to carry concealed.  They are all former law enforcement and are meant to prevent exactly what @Scott Lloyd fears.

That's interesting as I doubt a bishop has the authority to alter the policy.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ksfisher

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, randy said:

You don't need to make this personal.  I understand where you're coming from.  

What I mean by "losing" is that any time someone has to draw their weapon in their defense, and especially if it results in a fatality,  they "lose" because of the emotional and physical trauma their body and spirit has been subjected to.  They lose because they will live with that sight, smell and memory of the attact for the rest of their lives. Family members who witnessed the attack lose for the same reasons.  The family of the perp loses....they lost someone they loved.   There are never any winners....only losers in the sense I've described.  Even though we may prevail...we still lose.

As far as throwing things at the attacker who is armed....good luck with that. If those things are all that you had available..then yes, I say by all means have at it with gusto.  My point is that I should not be put in a position to have to throw books and lamps at an armed would be killer.       I say that sincerely.  No offense intended.

 

I was thinking that one could stuff a hymnal down one's shirt to protect the vitals while throwing stuff.  I'm in England at the moment, where self-defense is almost against the law and they won't let me bring my arsenal with me, but week after next I'll be back in the states and I think I will take a hymnal out to the range to see what kind of penetration a 9mm gets! 😄

By the way, what you say about "losing" is spot on.  I hope never to be in that situation.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Especially if that miss results in someone screaming in agony as his insides explode or kids are yelling “mommy, mommy” while she bleeds out. 

Bullets have to go somewhere. Is there any reason to suppose a miss is going to hit wood rather than flesh in a crowd?

Yes unless you are an idiot and ignore the background of where you are shooting. That is what training is for.

Common Sense would work if anybody had it.

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was told by someone that in Utah, a place (like a mall or a movie theater) cannot say 'firearms prohibited' unless they provide a locked place to put them in.  Is that true?

I wouldn't know, but whatever, I would refuse to shop anywhere it said "firearms prohibited" unless they made everyone go through a metal detector.  And a lockbox.

The county courthouse in my home county in Washington state has a metal detector and a lockbox (cuz you can't even take a pocketknife in there). If you're carrying a concealed pistol you can store that, too.  Unless you don't have a permit, in which event there are sheriff's deputies available to assist you.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I was thinking that one could stuff a hymnal down one's shirt to protect the vitals while throwing stuff.  I'm in England at the moment, where self-defense is almost against the law and they won't let me bring my arsenal with me, but week after next I'll be back in the states and I think I will take a hymnal out to the range to see what kind of penetration a 9mm gets! 😄

By the way, what you say about "losing" is spot on.  I hope never to be in that situation.  

It will go through

And if he is shooting a rifle or 45 forget about it.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, randy said:

You don't need to make this personal.  I understand where you're coming from.  

What I mean by "losing" is that any time someone has to draw their weapon in their defense, and especially if it results in a fatality,  they "lose" because of the emotional and physical trauma their body and spirit has been subjected to.  They lose because they will live with that sight, smell and memory of the attack for the rest of their lives. Family members who witnessed the attack lose for the same reasons.  The family of the perp loses....they lost someone they loved.   There are never any winners....only losers in the sense I've described.  Even though we may prevail...we still lose.

I would consider it a win, though, if was able to save someone/ anyone from a death like that, even it meant my mortal life ended sooner than it otherwise would have.

5 minutes ago, randy said:

As far as throwing things at the attacker who is armed....good luck with that. If those things are all that you had available..then yes, I say by all means have at it with gusto.  ''

Whatever it takes to stop it, with whatever I have available to me.

5 minutes ago, randy said:

My point is that I should not be put in a position to have to throw books and lamps at an armed would be killer.       I say that sincerely.  No offense intended.

In an earlier post I talked about how we could all bring weapons to Church meetings, even if it was against Church policy, just as any law breaker could do.  And that includes you, too.  You can bring a weapon to Church meetings, if you want to, although you may have to try to hide if it the policy of the Church forbids it.  And you will live with the consequences of doing that, too, just as we all will live with the consequences of our own choices, whatever we choose to do.

Personally, I would rather just not bring a gun to Church meetings, because I would not want to think about what I might have to do with that gun someday.  I would rather just use books and chairs and whatever else I have to use for whatever situation comes up, as it is warranted.

But that's just me. You can do whatever you want to do, always, of course.

[randy]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I was thinking that one could stuff a hymnal down one's shirt to protect the vitals while throwing stuff.  I'm in England at the moment, where self-defense is almost against the law and they won't let me bring my arsenal with me, but week after next I'll be back in the states and I think I will take a hymnal out to the range to see what kind of penetration a 9mm gets! 😄

By the way, what you say about "losing" is spot on.  I hope never to be in that situation.  

A dedicated "self defense" round in 9mm will have zero problems going through the Hymnal!  

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes unless you are an idiot and ignore the background of where you are shooting. That is what training is for.

Common Sense would work if anybody had it.

Now, don't be mean.  I see her worry, don't you?  As it turns out, most people will dive for the floor, leaving a clearer field of fire at the perp.

Unfortunately some CCP holders don't have training. And even cops don't necessarily do the proper thing in a shootout.  My dad was LAPD for a time, and in a couple of hairy situations he discovered that with all his training he might be more a liability than an asset (a former Marine, too), so resigned and did something else for a living.

 And not everyone has common sense -- it isn't as common as one might think.

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It will go through

And if he is shooting a rifle or 45 forget about it.

You've tested this?

I get it with the rifle -- even body armor can be ineffective against a rifle.

[snowflake]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I agree with this policy. I am totally fine with LEO carrying weapons in a church environment, but the reality is that I would not be comfortable knowing that any adult in my ward, should he or she so choose, could also bring a weapon to church. I don't know about everyone else, but there are a few members I know who I absolutely would not  trust to carry a weapon. It would not surprise me if others thought the same of me. In my opinion, the answer to gun violence does not lie in arming more people.

Obviously you are clueless about people who concealed carry.

[let’s roll]

Guns are not my cup of tea. 🙂

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, randy said:

A dedicated "self defense" round in 9mm will have zero problems going through the Hymnal!  

Hmmm.  Maybe ball ammo would. But I'm thinking that a hollow point might expend most of its energy in expansion.  That's one of the reasons to use hollow points in self-defense (aside from the immediate take-down aspect), because it expends most of its energy in the target and frequently goes no further.  And books are more solid than flesh or ballistic gelatin.

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Guns are not my cup of tea. 🙂

I agree.  I've found that they release too much oil into the brew.  

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Obviously you are clueless about people who concealed carry.

Don't often agree with you, but this is one of those times.

[randy]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would consider it a win, though, if was able to save someone/ anyone from a death like that, even it meant my mortal life ended sooner than it otherwise would have.

Whatever it takes to stop it, with whatever I have available to me.

In an earlier post I talked about how we could all bring weapons to Church meetings, even if it was against Church policy, just as any law breaker could do.  And that includes you, too.  You can bring a weapon to Church meetings, if you want to, although you may have to try to hide if it the policy of the Church forbids it.  And you will live with the consequences of doing that, too, just as we all will live with the consequences of our own choices, whatever we choose to do.

Personally, I would rather just not bring a gun to Church meetings, because I would not want to think about what I might have to do with that gun someday.  I would rather just use books and chairs and whatever else I have to use for whatever situation comes up, as it is warranted.

But that's just me. You can do whatever you want to do, always, of course.

I appreciate this!  Thank you!   As you suggest...the decision to carry or not to carry is an extremely serious one, and for some...their decision should be " not to carry"  if for only the reason you shared.  For those people they should consider other non-lethal protection....ie; pepper spray etc.

As far as violating Church policy with respect to carrying concealed at Church...at this time I will respect and honor it, until at such time as I have it on authority that there are no viable protections in place.   At that point I would have to reevaluate my position.

 

[Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That's interesting as I doubt a bishop has the authority the authority to alter the policy.

I suppose you've heard the old proverb, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission."

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Guns are not my cup of tea. 🙂

How about hymnals?  Maybe just carry one of those at all times?

[randy]

Why yes...yes I have!  I have exercised that principle many times in my 46 yrs with my Bride!    But, I have noticed to my chagrin...that sometimes that "forgiveness" is a longgggggggggggggggggggg  time in coming!!

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I suppose you've heard the old proverb, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission."

 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, randy said:

I live in Texas and this letter was read in Sacrament mtg yesterday.   I'm wondering,  since Texas has made it legal to carry in houses of Worship, the Church has stated that it's prohibited in it's Meetinghouses..I wonder if the Church will put the requisite (ghostbuster/guns prohibited) signage on it's doors to make it "official" to all who enter.   I suspect not.      The "visitor/investigator"   obviously would not be aware of the Church Handbook policy.     

I hope to heck they do not put up such signs.  It's an announcement of a safe-zone for murderers.

[Anijen]

59 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Here is the Utah law:

...

The church, as I understand it, has complied with the provisions in section 2.

Yes, I had posted this exact site earlier. And yes, the CoJCoLDS has complied with the notice statute.

[Prof]

22 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

 

44 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

In my Ward, the Bishop has designated 3 specific members to carry concealed.  They are all former law enforcement and are meant to prevent exactly what @Scott Lloyd fears.

That's interesting as I doubt a bishop has the authority the authority to alter the policy.

In 

In my ward, something similar was done only the members involved were not LEOs. 

Ward Council was on board with it. Not for sure if it bubbled up to the stake.

[randy]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I hope to heck they do not put up such signs.  It's an announcement of a safe-zone for murderers.

Boy...I'm with ya there!!

[strappinglad]

As a compromise , the Church could make all new hymnals and bench pads out of Kevlar. 😏

Honestly, one has a much greater chance of being hurt in the car going to and from church every time than a church shooting. 

[randy]

This has been a most invigorating discussion.    Sensitive and very personal on so many levels to be sure.  But, it's a discussion worth having!