randy Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 5 hours ago, Calm said: I appreciate your and Amulek's response and this comment is not judgmental because I honestly am not confident enough in this case about my own judgment, but since for me "common sense" is to not have guns around at this point, appealing to common sense in your argument doesn't make much sense to me. IOW, most people assume common sense is some knowledge/opinion held in common with other people. I don't believe that is accurate in how we often use it. Instead it is simply something we see as so obvious that we are certain if people understood things like we did, they would see it the same way. And Randy, I am sorry if I pushed any buttons with my focus on suicide, if it came across like I thought you were actually ignoring risk. I know my ability for perception of others is superficial at best through the limited interaction we have, it may look like I am making assumptions about internal, not yet expressed concepts, but I am generally not for the vast majority of posters here. Calm...I so appreciate this! Very much! When I say speak of "common sense"..I speak of it in the sense of a person taking seriously their responsibility if they choose to carry which to me is 1) TRAINING 2) exercising common sense about where a person finds themselves, ie: Is there "really" a good reason to be out about town at 2am? 3) Taking common sense precautions based upon your own lifes experiences ie: choosing not have a weapon at all, or having the weapons locked safely away, or having the weapon in a place of ready access if something were to happen (based upon who lives in the home..children etc). I certainly make no judgement as to whether someone should or should not have a weapon in your home if anyone in that home is struggling with their mental health etc. I can certainly support their decision not to. I don't want you to think that you were not exercising common sense because your choice/feelings on this subject. I certainly DO understand your position! Also, no buttons pushed regarding discussing suicide. It's a difficult subject to talk about, but one that is necessary at times. I thank you for your thoughtfulness and wanting to make sure I understood. That means a lot to me! Thank you! 2
Calm Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 32 minutes ago, randy said: don't want you to think that you were not exercising common sense because your choice/feelings on this subject. I certainly DO understand your position! I have not felt the least criticism from you, which always makes the conversation more interesting for me. People are sharing their philosophies rather than judgments, if that is clear.
Popular Post california boy Posted September 3, 2019 Popular Post Posted September 3, 2019 On 9/2/2019 at 12:17 PM, Vedrfolnyr said: I have always carried at church and I always will. Look, the church is building it's own firearms training center for the leaders security teams. Please tell my why my beautiful wife and awesome kids don't deserve the same protection? Pres. Nelson, Bednar, Oaks could walk down any street in the world (besides SLC) and no one would have any who they were. So don't tell me that there is a credible threat against them that justifies them having armed security that also doesn't exist against my family and ward members. I feel that it is extremely hypocritical to tell the average member that they are less valuable than the self-important folks who make the rules for us but not them. I personally am at the far end of not wanting a gun. But in all fairness a general authority is at a much higher risk of being a target than a regular member. They might not be recognized walking down the street for the general public. But if someone wanted to attack the Church shooting a high profile leader would be a possibility. And a person wanting to do that would know who their target was. So yeah. There is a difference 6
Amulek Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Calm said: But I can tell you from experience it is just not access to guns that have impact on thoughts of suicide. Realizing a gun is nearby even if I didn’t have access to it made my thoughts of suicide more anchored in reality. Fantasizing goes to a very different place, more active, less passive. My daughter says similar things, the guns being in the house increase her intrusive/obsessive thinking which for her trigger panic attacks and likely deepens her depression since much of it is center around feeling out of control of herself. I genuinely appreciate your thoughts and experiences on this issue - especially with respect to your family. It helps me appreciate where you (and likely many others) are coming from, at least to some degree. So, while the experience of having suicidal thoughts be impacted by one's being in proximity to a gun is, admittedly, foreign to me personally, I can sympathize with those who feel differently. Quote Such things probably seem distant to many, improbable for their family, yet getting assaulted by a gun seems realistic to them when the probability is way lower. That is very hard for me to understand, feeling so vulnerable in the one case and invulnerable in the statistically more dangerous event. I think it largely depends on how you are doing the calculus. If you are assuming one only needs a gun for an active shooter situation, then yeah - maybe that seems like a very low likelihood event. But what if you start expanding the risk pool to encompass other situations as well (e.g., robbery / armed robbery, burglary / home invasion, physical assault, domestic assault, rape / forcible sexual assault, etc.)? And let's not forget, you never know when the situation is gong to arise where you're going to need to shoot a coyote, right? That last one is actually rather pragmatic, depending on where you live. So, when you compound those potential risks together, how do they weigh up against the probability that a family member will, without any sort of warning, commit suicide with one of your firearms? I think that's the sort of question that everyone has to answer for themselves. And I agree that it's the sort of decision that should not be taken lightly. Quote I know I would never forgive myself for not having banned guns from the house if someone killed themselves in my home. Thankfully my husband has chosen to keep them elsewhere. So you don't have to be around them, and your husband still gets to go to the range? Sounds like a win-win to me. Edited September 3, 2019 by Amulek 2
Calm Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Amulek said: So you don't have to be around them, and your husband still gets to go to the range? Sounds like a win-win to me. Yes, I am grateful he is okay with this. Guns are at this point entertainment for him (something to do with friends), so while inconvenient he is being reasonable about it (judging accurately that it means much more to my daughter and me not to have them around than for him to have them around). 1
Vedrfolnyr Posted September 4, 2019 Posted September 4, 2019 On 9/2/2019 at 12:53 PM, Calm said: Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!"
JAHS Posted September 4, 2019 Author Posted September 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said: Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!" Some very unstable disgruntled former members know who they are and might care enough to hurt them. For regular members. I look at the whole thing as the same as worrying about whether lightening is going to strike me. Sure it happens, but the odds are very much against it. I will take some precautions but in the end I don't have much control over something that is so rare to happen. Still, I don't mind that there are police officers in my ward who do carry in church.
Jake Starkey Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 In the rural South, some police and sheriff's departments are allowing their deputies and officers to attend church services in uniform on Sunday mornings. Quite the sight to see them standing armed in uniform at the back of the chapel.
Tacenda Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: In the rural South, some police and sheriff's departments are allowing their deputies and officers to attend church services in uniform on Sunday mornings. Quite the sight to see them standing armed in uniform at the back of the chapel. That is awesome, I hope it starts a trend and all chapel attendees that are law enforcement can help prevent & protect! Does the no guns allowed in the LDS church, even include law enforcement?? Edited September 5, 2019 by Tacenda
Jake Starkey Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 I would think the Bishops, High Council, and Stake Presidency would probably see eye to eye on encouraging it.
Calm Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 Quote Does the no guns allowed in the LDS church, even include law enforcement?? It explicitly allows for LEOs as cited in the opening posts.
Garden Girl Posted September 8, 2019 Posted September 8, 2019 I've mentioned here how we have several police officers who attend our ward, including the Chief of police... they wear full uniform, including weapons... this morning one officer attended in uniform... and for the first time ever... ever... this included a bullet-proof vest... GG 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 I have never carried a weapon in Church, even before I retired, since I have never attended Church where I had jurisdictional duties. When I was not in uniform, I did not carry in any other Churches. When in uniform, I had no choice, but always begged forgiveness for being armed. This of course unless the call came from a Church.
The Nehor Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 On 9/4/2019 at 1:29 PM, Vedrfolnyr said: Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!" Do you also think Presidential security from the Secret Service is unwarranted and that everyone should get s Secret Service detail?
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