Guns at church policy changed

[Vedrfolnyr]

I have always carried at church and I always will. Look, the church is building it's own firearms training center for the leaders security teams. Please tell my why my beautiful wife and awesome kids don't deserve the same protection? Pres. Nelson, Bednar, Oaks could walk down any street in the world (besides SLC) and no one would have any who they were. So don't tell me that there is a credible threat against them that justifies them having armed security that also doesn't exist against my family and ward members. I feel that it is extremely hypocritical to tell the average member that they are less valuable than the self-important folks who make the rules for us but not them.

[Calm]

Do you know if they allow any and all bodyguards to carry inside Church for sure?  Perhaps this ruling will be obeyed by leadership as they expect other members to do so.  Bodyguards/security can operate without guns, after all.  My husband helped provide security for Elder Holland 20 years ago or so, he wasn’t given a gun at the time for the work.

You do know that leadership has in the past and likely present from what I have heard/read received death threats.  Have or any of your family members?

Edited September 2, 2019 by Calm

[Meerkat]

43 minutes ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have always carried at church and I always will. Look, the church is building it's own firearms training center for the leaders security teams. Please tell my why my beautiful wife and awesome kids don't deserve the same protection? Pres. Nelson, Bednar, Oaks could walk down any street in the world (besides SLC) and no one would have any who they were. So don't tell me that there is a credible threat against them that justifies them having armed security that also doesn't exist against my family and ward members. I feel that it is extremely hypocritical to tell the average member that they are less valuable than the self-important folks who make the rules for us but not them.

Do you believe President Nelson is the Lord’s mouthpiece on earth?  If so, why would you choose not to follow his counsel?  How do you feel about the Temple Recommend questions?  Would they have any bearing on your decision?

Edited September 2, 2019 by Meerkat

[Calm]

 

For those who are concerned about the safety of their families, do you consider that having a gun in the house dramatically raises the possibility of death by suicide? (Serious questions)  Not that gun owners or their families attempt suicide more often, one study found they may even be less likely to.  The problems is choosing to suicide by gun is usually a fatal choice, while other forms are much less so by allowing for time for second thoughts and to call for help.

Of the families I know who have family members who suicided, most had no clue that individual was suicidal.  

In Utah, many more children shoot them selves and die than are shot by others.  I understand that people here aren’t careless with their guns, but why take the risk?

And I know several families who have significantly depressed members living or visiting, and they think nothing of the guns they have there because they are under lock...but if they have the key or code, that may be useless.

I am not trying to persuade people, I am just wondering at the reasoning for taking that risk when people are much more likely to die by their own gun than by being shot by someone else. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Calm

[Vedrfolnyr]

54 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Do you believe President Nelson is the Lord’s mouthpiece on earth?  If so, why would you choose not to follow his counsel?  How do you feel about the Temple Recommend questions?  Would they have any bearing on your decision?

Please tell me.how this is revelation from Nelson's mouth? Most likely this is advice from the quorum at Kirton-Mconkie advising the church.

[Vedrfolnyr]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do you know if they allow any and all bodyguards to carry inside Church for sure?  Perhaps this ruling will be obeyed by leadership as they expect other members to do so.  Bodyguards/security can operate without guns, after all.  My husband helped provide security for Elder Holland 20 years ago or so, he wasn’t given a gun at the time for the work.

You do know that leadership has in the past and likely present from what I have heard/read received death threats.  Have or any of your family members?

Yes, my bro-in-law works in church security and they carry EVERYWHERE. He carries in the temples when he has to do inspections or has to accompany someone of self-importance. So again I ask the question. Why is the safety and the lives of my wife and children of less importance than the leaders of the church who have armed security everywhere they go? I guess that we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. Yet some people are more equal in the eyes of the church.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

Please tell my why my beautiful wife and awesome kids don't deserve the same protection?

Because they don't face the same risk of being targeted for an attack - even a non-lethal one. Sort of like why the Pope drives around in a bubble car while your Catholic neighbor gets around just fine on his moped.  

 

[Amulek]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

For those who are concerned about the safety of their families, do you consider that having a gun in the house dramatically raises the possibility of death by suicide? (Serious questions)

I think this is sort of an as-applied question. 

My family doesn't have a history of depression. I believe we do have one distant relative who is bi-polar, but that's about it.

My wife and I are good, loving parents, and our children appear to have healthy views about their own self worth. 

That being said, if one of my children were to show signs of suicidal ideation I would absolutely secure my guns so that my children could no longer access them at all. 

 

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have always carried at church and I always will. Look, the church is building it's own firearms training center for the leaders security teams. Please tell my why my beautiful wife and awesome kids don't deserve the same protection? Pres. Nelson, Bednar, Oaks could walk down any street in the world (besides SLC) and no one would have any who they were. So don't tell me that there is a credible threat against them that justifies them having armed security that also doesn't exist against my family and ward members. I feel that it is extremely hypocritical to tell the average member that they are less valuable than the self-important folks who make the rules for us but not them.

They are high profile targets compared to most members who are not. They are not self-important but are very important to the church and all members of the world. Jesus himself allow Peter to carry a sword (Luke 22: 38) for His protection on the night He was betrayed. 

[randy]

This is true, but it's hard to predict how a crazy person would factor those things into their planning.  Perhaps they would try a direct attack, however, I believe it's more likely that person would direct the attack against those that "support and sustain" those leaders, and since those members are now congregating in "gun free" zones, they are now soft targets.  Again, the bad guys are cowards by nature, thus they will target the unsuspecting and unprotected.

Edited September 2, 2019 by randy

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

Yes, my bro-in-law works in church security and they carry EVERYWHERE. He carries in the temples when he has to do inspections or has to accompany someone of self-importance. So again I ask the question. Why is the safety and the lives of my wife and children of less importance than the leaders of the church who have armed security everywhere they go? I guess that we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. Yet some people are more equal in the eyes of the church.

I ask you again, when was the last time you or your family received a death threat?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Amulek said:

I think this is sort of an as-applied question. 

My family doesn't have a history of depression. I believe we do have one distant relative who is bi-polar, but that's about it.

My wife and I are good, loving parents, and our children appear to have healthy views about their own self worth. 

That being said, if one of my children were to show signs of suicidal ideation I would absolutely secure my guns so that my children could no longer access them at all. 

 

But I can tell you from experience it is just not access to guns that have impact on thoughts of suicide. Realizing a gun is nearby even if I didn’t have access to it made my thoughts of suicide more anchored in reality. Fantasizing goes to a very different place, more active, less passive. My daughter says similar things, the guns being in the house increase her intrusive/obsessive thinking which for her trigger panic attacks and likely deepens her depression since much of it is center around feeling out of control of herself. 

I don’t know if there are any studies that just having guns nearby increases suicidal thoughts, but I would not be the least surprised. And given parents/spouses are at times unaware of their family member’s suicidal thoughts or behaviour, to me it is a nobrainer. 

Such things probably seem distant to many, improbable for their family, yet getting assaulted by a gun seems realistic to them when the probability is way lower.  That is very hard for me to understand, feeling so vulnerable in the one case and invulnerable in the statistically more dangerous event.

I know I would never forgive myself for not having banned guns from the house if someone killed themselves in my home.  Thankfully my husband has chosen to keep them elsewhere. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Sorry for another post on this, but the contrast occurred to me last night and I am finding it hard to understand. 

Those here who discuss how they choose to conceal carry because they want to be prepared for the unexpected. I so get that. 

What I can’t get my head around is the low probability of encountering gun violence against oneself or others is so front and center in people’s thoughts and motivations for choice while the possibility of unexpected suicide appears to be distant. 

Suicide can be “out of the blue”. So why  not prepare for that where possible?  Saying you will lock it up so family can’t get to it is all well and good, but what if it is you that gets hit off balance somehow?

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/suicide-often-not-preceded-by-warnings-201209245331

Plus there have been reliable studies showing when it comes to adolescent death by suicide, storage practices (safe vs less safe) don’t make a difference. 

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/firearm-availability-suicide.html

”Brent et al. (1991; 1993b) found no differences in storage practices in homes with adolescents who died by suicide and a comparison group of adolescents living in the community. Dahlberg, Ikeda, and Kresnow (2004) found no association between storage practices and firearm suicide (versus suicide by other means).”

Edited September 3, 2019 by Calm

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

Yes, my bro-in-law works in church security and they carry EVERYWHERE. He carries in the temples when he has to do inspections or has to accompany someone of self-importance. So again I ask the question. Why is the safety and the lives of my wife and children of less importance than the leaders of the church who have armed security everywhere they go? I guess that we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. Yet some people are more equal in the eyes of the church.

So, if in the temple are the pistols white?

Asking for a friend.

[randy]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Sorry for another post on this, but the contrast occurred to me last night and I am finding it hard to understand. 

Those here who discuss how they choose to conceal carry because they want to be prepared for the unexpected. I so get that. 

What I can’t get my head around is the low probability of encountering gun violence against oneself or others is so front and center in people’s thoughts and motivations for choice while the possibility of unexpected suicide appears to be distant. 

Suicide can be “out of the blue”. So why  not prepare for that where possible?  Saying you will lock it up so family can’t get to it is all well and good, but what if it is you that gets hit off balance somehow?

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/suicide-often-not-preceded-by-warnings-201209245331

There have been reliable studies showing when it comes to adolescent death by suicide, storage practices (safe vs less safe) don’t make a difference. 

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/firearm-availability-suicide.html

”Brent et al. (1991; 1993b) found no differences in storage practices in homes with adolescents who died by suicide and a comparison group of adolescents living in the community. Dahlberg, Ikeda, and Kresnow (2004) found no association between storage practices and firearm suicide (versus suicide by other means).”

For context...my father committed suicide when I was 19....his brother as well.  My brother spoke of it often, but was killed in an accident at home.   As I had mentioned earlier in this discussion,  I also drove a Coroners ambulance for 2 yrs...so I've seen first hand the pain, anguish and heartbreak of gun violence in all of its forms.     With all of that experience...I still want to have the ability to protect my family in the best way possible, acting of course within the law.   This is a difficult and multi-faceted  problem to be sure.  But again, given my lifes experience to date...I still choose to carry.    I will stress again....training, training...training!  Common sense..common sense...common sense....and then more training!

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you know if they allow any and all bodyguards to carry inside Church for sure?  Perhaps this ruling will be obeyed by leadership as they expect other members to do so.  Bodyguards/security can operate without guns, after all.  My husband helped provide security for Elder Holland 20 years ago or so, he wasn’t given a gun at the time for the work.

You do know that leadership has in the past and likely present from what I have heard/read received death threats.  Have or any of your family members?

Was your husband at that time an employee of Church Security, or was he a volunteer with a temporary assignment or calling? There is a distinction there, one I have noticed when covering temple dedications in the past. I don’t know if this is still the case, but for such events, they would typically call a number of the locals to work with the professionals in providing security. I’m pretty sure the locals didn’t carry, but I think it quite likely the professionals did. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

3 hours ago, randy said:

Common sense..common sense

I appreciate your and Amulek's response and this comment is not judgmental because I honestly am not confident enough in this case about my own judgment, but since for me "common sense" is to not have guns around at this point, appealing to common sense in your argument doesn't make much sense to me.  

IOW, most people assume common sense is some knowledge/opinion held in common with other people.  I don't believe that is accurate in how we often use it.  Instead it is simply something we see as so obvious that we are certain if people understood things like we did, they would see it the same way.

And Randy, I am sorry if I pushed any buttons with my focus on suicide, if it came across like I thought you were actually ignoring risk.  I know my ability for perception of others is superficial at best through the limited interaction we have, it may look like I am making assumptions about internal, not yet expressed concepts, but I am generally not for the vast majority of posters here.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Was your husband at that time an employee of Church Security, or was he a volunteer with a temporary assignment or calling? There is a distinction there, one I have noticed when covering temple dedications in the past. I don’t know if this is still the case, but for such events, they would typically call a number of the locals to work with the professionals in providing security. I’m pretty sure the locals didn’t carry, but I think it quite likely the professionals did. 

Volunteer.

I had assumed there is a difference, but was wondering that there may be situations where such is all the security provided.  I suspect probably not for the apostles, but wondering about Seventies, if they just limit it to volunteer in many places (others might be more dangerous such as those areas with high kidnapping of excutives rate https://www.osac.gov/Content/Report/4a173857-4631-4c1f-b74a-15f4aec35552 )

Edited September 3, 2019 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Volunteer.

I had assumed there is a difference, but was wondering that there may be situations where such is all the security provided.  I suspect probably not for the apostles, but wondering about Seventies.

I’ve never seen an instance where security was provided for a General Authority without Church Security being involved, at least in a supervisory role on site. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve never seen an instance where security was provided for a General Authority without Church Security being involved, at least in a supervisory role on site. 

Good to know, thank you.

My knowledge of how that operates is undoubtedly out of date as I was brought up on stories of apostles staying at my grandparents' home and pretty relaxed stuff when visiting back East and no one has told me that never happens any more, so I have left that as an option.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Calm

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

What I can’t get my head around is the low probability of encountering gun violence against oneself or others is so front and center in people’s thoughts and motivations for choice while the possibility of unexpected suicide appears to be distant. 

Suicide can be “out of the blue”. So why  not prepare for that where possible?  Saying you will lock it up so family can’t get to it is all well and good, but what if it is you that gets hit off balance somehow?

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/suicide-often-not-preceded-by-warnings-201209245331

I appreciate the health.harvard.edu link and article.  It's something everyone should read and take seriously.  I know a family who lost an adult son to suicide.  He was very pleasant in the morning when they left for the Temple.  But sometime during the day he made a decision.  It was preceded by most of the warnings over the prior month or so.  But the family thought he was getting better.  He knew what to say to divert their attention from his suicidal thoughts.  He had witnessed a suicide.  The article says it is easier for someone to act out on what they have witnessed.  The morning he acted, he appeared to be very much at peace and moving in a positive direction.  20/20 hindsight, he had made a decision that he was comfortable with.  The parents and some siblings have had moments of remorse because they feel they should have known what was going on.  Now, after the fact, they have read all the symptoms and wondered why they didn't do it before.  

We don't know why the Church has restricted weapons on Church property.  Your theory that the odds of gun violence at Church are so low  there is a higher probability of an accident or sudden (suicidal) event, etc. makes as much sense as anything.  I trust the Brethren.  I sustain them.  I'm not going to second guess them or try to persuade them to go against the inspiration from above.  I say "And should we die before our journey's through, happy day.  All is well.  We then are free from toil and sorrow too. With the just we shall dwell."

[Meerkat]

15 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

Please tell me.how this is revelation from Nelson's mouth? Most likely this is advice from the quorum at Kirton-Mconkie advising the church.

I believe such a serious statement that seems to go against a cherished Constitutional right of American citizens would need to be signed off by the prophet.  My covenant to sustain the Brethren trumps my right to bring a gun to Church.

[BlueDreams]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

But I can tell you from experience it is just not access to guns that have impact on thoughts of suicide. Realizing a gun is nearby even if I didn’t have access to it made my thoughts of suicide more anchored in reality. Fantasizing goes to a very different place, more active, less passive. My daughter says similar things, the guns being in the house increase her intrusive/obsessive thinking which for her trigger panic attacks and likely deepens her depression since much of it is center around feeling out of control of herself. 

I don’t know if there are any studies that just having guns nearby increases suicidal thoughts, but I would not be the least surprised. And given parents/spouses are at times unaware of their family member’s suicidal thoughts or behaviour, to me it is a nobrainer. 

Such things probably seem distant to many, improbable for their family, yet getting assaulted by a gun seems realistic to them when the probability is way lower.  That is very hard for me to understand, feeling so vulnerable in the one case and invulnerable in the statistically more dangerous event.

I know I would never forgive myself for not having banned guns from the house if someone killed themselves in my home.  Thankfully my husband has chosen to keep them elsewhere. 

I’m right there with you. Even as a trained therapist, i’ve been caught off guard as to who actually attempts suicide as clients, who’s had ideation, etc. It’s not always who you think it will be. By far yhe scariest cases for me entailed people with guns because i knew those were also the most lethal. I had an escalating fighting couple where the husband had a stock pile. And I had another who luckily kept the plan of giving their gun to a friend when ideation starting to kick in harder. Just recently my brother was threatened with gun from another brother with an open-carry permit. Yet i can only name one person that i know who was actively threatened by a gun from a person he didn’t know (my husband). And as he’s not from the US he’s not exactly jonesing for his own gun to protect himself. 

Which i’m glad, because I don’t want a gun in my house. For me, they don’t represent safety, but an added risk in an area i am extremely unlikely to be attacked by a gunman. Something i’ve found interesting too, is that those often wanting a gun for protection or defending gun rights are those least likely to be attacked by someone with a gun. Plus, to me, there’s a number of cultural assumptions around guns to maintain some of these arguments.

 

For the record, i have shot a gun before. 

With luv, 

BD 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by BlueDreams

[sunstoned]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

 

For those who are concerned about the safety of their families, do you consider that having a gun in the house dramatically raises the possibility of death by suicide? (Serious questions)  Not that gun owners or their families attempt suicide more often, one study found they may even be less likely to.  The problems is choosing to suicide by gun is usually a fatal choice, while other forms are much less so by allowing for time for second thoughts and to call for help.

Of the families I know who have family members who suicided, most had no clue that individual was suicidal.  

In Utah, many more children shoot them selves and die than are shot by others.  I understand that people here aren’t careless with their guns, but why take the risk?

And I know several families who have significantly depressed members living or visiting, and they think nothing of the guns they have there because they are under lock...but if they have the key or code, that may be useless.

I am not trying to persuade people, I am just wondering at the reasoning for taking that risk when people are much more likely to die by their own gun than by being shot by someone else. 

I live in South Utah county,  I personally know of 3 shooting fatalities that have happened on my block (one city block) alone.  Two were suicide, and one was an accidental shooting (brother killed brother).  I know of no shootings that have happened in self defense.  My takeaway on this is chances are higher of accidents happening with guns than they are of ever having to use a gun for self defense. 

I am a gun owner.  I am a amature gun smith and currently have over a dozen guns that are stored in my gun safe. All are stored unloaded. Ammo is stored in a separate safe.  I made the decision long ago that I would not have or allow a loaded unsecured gun to be in my house.

[Tacenda]

59 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I live in South Utah county,  I personally know of 3 shooting fatalities that have happened on my block (one city block) alone.  Two were suicide, and one was an accidental shooting (brother killed brother).  I know of no shootings that have happened in self defense.  My takeaway on this is chances are higher of accidents happening with guns than they are of ever having to use a gun for self defense. 

I am a gun owner.  I am a amature gun smith and currently have over a dozen guns that are stored in my gun safe. All are stored unloaded. Ammo is stored in a separate safe.  I made the decision long ago that I would not have or allow a loaded unsecured gun to be in my house.

I'm with you, Calm and BlueDreams on this. If I had a personal weapon with easy access, I'd be afraid of someone...a grandchild or child finding it. I'd be afraid of an intruder using it on me, what if it's by my bedside and they get it first. Also, double suicides possibly wouldn't happen had there not been an easy access to a gun. The odds are in favor of it not being in self defense. And the problem with someone who's woken up to a noise and thinks it an intruder and it's not. Buy do understand people's need for a weapon to defend themselves out there. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Tacenda