What is the DEAL w/ Denver Snuffer?

[caspianrex]

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

[caspianrex]

Incidentally, the PDF I mentioned in my original post was published by someone named Christopher Hamill, and it contains footnotes regarding readings from the Original Manuscript and Printer's Manuscript. But I'm inclined to doubt it, due to its being published via a site that is aligned with Denver Snuffer et al.

Here's the PDF, if anyone wants to see it: Restoration Edition, Research Version.

[LoudmouthMormon]

He's some dude who began receiving revelation about how and when the church started going wrong, and got himself excommunicated.  I hear he's got a small following somewhere.  The most remarkable thing about him, is that's his real name, and no, it doesn't really mean anything in particular, or have anything to do with anything.  

Not nearly as nutty as the nutters who have visions of the last days and tent cities, and go buy winnebagoes and pick the place for Temporary New Zion in the rocky mountains.  Just sort of nutty.

[Bede]

Peggy Stack does a wonderful explanation in the Salt Lake Tribune.

 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/27/denver-snuffers-offshoot-is-drawing-away-mormons-with-the-mantra-god-can-talk-to-you-too-but-will-these-freewheeling-fellowships-last/

[Jane_Doe]

28 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

Denver Snuffer was an LDS Christian, whom vocally veered off to extreme right positions 20-10 years ago, and got excommunicated.  He's picked up a following of his own and now leads a very loosely organized group.  

[Robert F. Smith]

Snuffer is a graduate of the BYU Law School, and theorizes that there were 4 distinct phases in LDS history: (1) Joseph Smith phase, ending in 1844, (2) plural marriage phase, ending in 1890/1904, (3) anti-polygyny phase, and (4) corporate management phase beginning with David O. McKay. 

[SettingDogStar]

44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Snuffer is a graduate of the BYU Law School, and theorizes that there were 4 distinct phases in LDS history: (1) Joseph Smith phase, ending in 1844, (2) plural marriage phase, ending in 1890/1904, (3) anti-polygyny phase, and (4) corporate management phase beginning with David O. McKay. 

I’ve read PTHG and while I don’t agree with all his conclusions I’m curious if you would agree with the general “four phase” layout? He makes a decent arguement for it, even if some of his doctrinal assumptions might be a little wonky.

[Kenngo1969]

 

2 hours ago, Bede said:

Peggy Stack does a wonderful explanation in the Salt Lake Tribune.

 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/27/denver-snuffers-offshoot-is-drawing-away-mormons-with-the-mantra-god-can-talk-to-you-too-but-will-these-freewheeling-fellowships-last/

I've always believed "God can talk to [me], too."  I probably differ with Mr. Snuffer on the necessity of having keys to lead and to receive revelation for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a whole, and/or on whether those purporting to have keys and to receive such revelation today went off the rails at some point.  But if the centerpoint of his argument is that "God can talk to [me], too," I'm not sure whether his argument was worth getting crossways with the Church of Jesus Christ or getting excommunicated.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I’ve read PTHG and while I don’t agree with all his conclusions I’m curious if you would agree with the general “four phase” layout? He makes a decent arguement for it, even if some of his doctrinal assumptions might be a little wonky.

Snuffer clearly came of age when McKay came in, bringing the modern Church (not a corporate mgmt phase, which was already present), because McKay gave the Church powerful mainstream, enlightened respectability -- at the same time as Hugh Nibley and Leonard Arrington dominated the LDS intellectual scene.  The next major shift came with the 1978 revelation of Spencer Kimball, and the latest shift the Nelson Whirlwind.  Snuffer has been caught up in his own little world and has missed the boat.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Snuffer clearly came of age when McKay came in, bringing the modern Church (not a corporate mgmt phase, which was already present), because McKay gave the Church powerful mainstream, enlightened respectability -- at the same time as Hugh Nibley and Leonard Arrington dominated the LDS intellectual scene.  The next major shift came with the 1978 revelation of Spencer Kimball, and the latest shift the Nelson Whirlwind.  Snuffer has been caught up in his own little world and has missed the boat.

I think Elder McConkie also had phases of the Church as well, i'd have to dig around to see if I can find that talk that he deals with that

 

yeah here it is

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1977/04/come-let-israel-build-zion?lang=eng

Edited July 14, 2019 by Duncan

[jpv]

8 hours ago, caspianrex said:

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

Have you ever been on a .info domain where things didn't get weird? 😀

In all seriousness, thanks for your engagement with scriptures in our tradition.

[Thinking]

11 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I hear he's got a small following somewhere.

One estimate has the number of his followers from 5,000 to 10,000 (3 years after he declared himself to be the prophet). Just for comparison, at the end of 1833, the membership of the LDS Church was 3,140.

[SettingDogStar]

5 minutes ago, Thinking said:

One estimate has the number of his followers from 5,000 to 10,000 (3 years after he declared himself to be the prophet). Just for comparison, at the end of 1833, the membership of the LDS Church was 3,140.

For not taking a strongman approach that’s pretty good numbers there. I was fascinated (still am) in that movement for a lot of reasons, though I was never really convinced that Denver was everything he seems to imply. 

I do like the fellowship concept and the attempted institution of the JST scriptures. Plus I’ve always enjoyed the idea of sacrament at home with family and friends whom you really love and care for with wine and large sections of bread.

Im obviously not convinced by Denver but I appreciate some of his and his followings innovations. I don’t sense any wicked or truly evil intent either, if that makes a difference.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

One estimate has the number of his followers from 5,000 to 10,000 (3 years after he declared himself to be the prophet). Just for comparison, at the end of 1833, the membership of the LDS Church was 3,140.

Publication and transportation is a lot easier these days and Snuffer has been building up a following with his books .  He has a much larger audience to draw followers from.

I don’t think a comparison is of much value, the conditions being drastically different imo  

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

One estimate has the number of his followers from 5,000 to 10,000 (3 years after he declared himself to be the prophet). Just for comparison, at the end of 1833, the membership of the LDS Church was 3,140.

What's right is right, even if nobody believes it, says it, or does it, and what's wrong is wrong, even if everybody believes it, says it, or does it.  Whether there are three of us, or two of us, or even if (Heaven forbid!) I am the only one of "us," I'll cast my lot with the Saints, thanks.  (See Matthew 18:20).

[Kenngo1969]

15 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I’ve read PTHG and while I don’t agree with all his conclusions I’m curious if you would agree with the general “four phase” layout? He makes a decent arguement for it, even if some of his doctrinal assumptions might be a little wonky.

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passing-up-the-heavenly-gift-part-one-of-two/

[blueglass]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

What's right is right, even if nobody believes it, says it, or does it, and what's wrong is wrong, even if everybody believes it, says it, or does it.  Whether there are three of us, or two of us, or even if (Heaven forbid!) I am the only one of "us," I'll cast my lot with the Saints, thanks.  (See Matthew 18:20).

Do you believe the black African priesthood and temple ban was inspired by God?

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

Do you believe the black African priesthood and temple ban was inspired by God?

 

That's a tangent. And, frankly, I'm not sure how it is, in any way, responsive to my previous post. In any event, it's not related to this thread, and I'm not chasing you down that rabbit hole.  I will not engage you beyond this post on that topic unless you start a new thread--and even then, I reserve the right not to participate.  However, if you would like to discuss that topic, feel free to do so; if I feel inclined to do so, I will participate.  If I do not, I will not. 

Has God ever seen fit to command someone to do something without feeling the need to explain Himself fully?  Your mileage may vary, but I believe He has.  See Isaiah 55:8-9, I Nephi 9:5, I Nephi 11:17, Moses 5:6, et al. and probably ad infinitum.  No one likes discomfort, but if I have to choose between feeling slightly uncomfortable about a few things because I don't know why God would do something, or why He would do it in a particular way, on the one hand, or feeling completely comfortable because, amazingly and miraculously, God's thoughts and ways correspond perfectly to my thoughts and ways in every particular (and probably, they also correspond perfectly to the direction and velocity of the prevailing sociopolitical winds), slight discomfort notwithstanding, I believe (and hope) that I'd choose the former, every time.

Again, I'll let you have the last word if you want it.  You can even call me a racist.  I don't care.  I have better things to do with my Sabbath.

[LoudmouthMormon]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

One estimate has the number of his followers from 5,000 to 10,000 (3 years after he declared himself to be the prophet). Just for comparison, at the end of 1833, the membership of the LDS Church was 3,140.

Gotta factor things that into that comparison.  In 1833 there was no internet, and only 4% of the population we have now.    Factoring in accessibility and population density, if the church had started 3 years ago here, we'd be almost at a million by now.  And if Snuffer had his start back in those days, well, we know it was a time full of people starting new things by yelling that the other religion was wrong, and almost nobody survived that except Joseph and maybe two others who later died out.

Edited July 14, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

Do you believe the black African priesthood and temple ban was inspired by God?

Oh, if it wasn't, He suffered it to remain a thing for a time.  That's something God does a lot - suffer things to remain things for times.  How many millennia of humans before we figured out germ theory?  Or the concept of marital rape?  Or the reality of mental illness?  If you're looking for a pain meter for various things God let His children believe until they figured it out for themselves, the priesthood ban would fall pretty dang low on the list if you ask me.

Edited July 14, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Gotta factor things that into that comparison.  In 1833 there was no internet, and only 4% of the population we have now.    Factoring in accessibility and population density, if the church had started 3 years ago here, we'd be almost at a million by now.  And if Snuffer had his start back in those days, well, we know it was a time full of people starting new things by yelling that the other religion was wrong, and almost nobody survived that except Joseph and maybe two others who later died out.

The restoration churches established by Thomas and Alexander Campbell are still with us: Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ (Christian Churches).

"These churches comprise about 2,000,000 members in over 40,000 individual congregations worldwide."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ .

[e-eye]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Gotta factor things that into that comparison.  In 1833 there was no internet, and only 4% of the population we have now.    Factoring in accessibility and population density, if the church had started 3 years ago here, we'd be almost at a million by now.  And if Snuffer had his start back in those days, well, we know it was a time full of people starting new things by yelling that the other religion was wrong, and almost nobody survived that except Joseph and maybe two others who later died out.

Snuffers movement was largely based on finding those who struggled with the church. The problem with suffer is that by taking members with weak testimonies he filled his non-church with a poor foundation. He had a lot of followers before he was excommunicated but from my understanding the last few years has not been that good. 

[Teancum]

On 7/13/2019 at 2:42 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

He's some dude who began receiving revelation about how and when the church started going wrong, and got himself excommunicated.  I hear he's got a small following somewhere.  The most remarkable thing about him, is that's his real name, and no, it doesn't really mean anything in particular, or have anything to do with anything.  

Not nearly as nutty as the nutters who have visions of the last days and tent cities, and go buy winnebagoes and pick the place for Temporary New Zion in the rocky mountains.  Just sort of nutty.

It is fairly humerous to me that a Latter-day Saint calls someone nutty who claims revelation regarding how a religion is in apostasy.  I imagine that is how many viewed Joseph Smith.

[Teancum]

On 7/13/2019 at 2:17 PM, caspianrex said:

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Snuffer_Jr.

[Exiled]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It is fairly humerous to me that a Latter-day Saint calls someone nutty who claims revelation regarding how a religion is in apostasy.  I imagine that is how many viewed Joseph Smith.

He got Pres. Nelson to join the revelation fray. Without Mr. Snuffer, one wonders if the revelation pen, that writes down inspired words for the faithful, would be a thing.  Competition makes one do things that one might not do otherwise.