Jane_Doe Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Yet Smac quoted the Handbook of Instructions and it clearly said that joining another faith and advocating its teachings was apostasy. In practice though that is only applied when a person become a... *looking for the word and failing, so I'll go for an example* If Bob joins some radical Islamic group and starts campaigning for "Christ isn't divine" all over the place -- then that will come into play. If Kyle joins a Methodist church and is just generally a good Christ-loving Christian, then that line doesn't comes into play. I've seen lots of folks leave the LDS church, formally join and attend a different Christian church, and come back without ever a "you need to get excumminicated!" stuff. Rather they're just welcomed back.
Navidad Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 52 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is apostasy. Going completely inactive in the Church is also apostasy but we do not always excommunicate for it. Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? Another question that will probably not be a good one. Just like with 90% of faith groups, It is possible to be very active in a Mormon ward without being a member. I have experienced that for over a year. We attend all regular services; testify, serve as Sacrament service speakers, take the sacrament, donate, sing solos, sing in the choir, clean on Saturday, attend baptisms and funerals, drive missionaries to and from their place of calling, teach adult Sunday School (as a substitute), bring Mennonite cookies, salads, and jello, visit the sick and bereaving, attend all social functions, watch general conferences, attend stake conferences, volunteer for ministry opportunities, rescue the sacrament table cloth from roving toddlers, pray before and after meetings; surely I am missing something. Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Is it fairly common to have folks like us in a ward?
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Navidad said: Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Eternal investigator. I guess that now we have abandoned the term "Mormon", you can have it. Dry Latter-day Saint just doesn't roll of the tongue quite right. Edited October 25, 2018 by pogi 2
katherine the great Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: It is apostasy. Going completely inactive in the Church is also apostasy but we do not always excommunicate for it. Do we EVER excommunicate for it? I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for being inactive. 1
RevTestament Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Navidad said: Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? We are not like Muslims - non-members are not "infidels." Probably the worst characterization is "gentiles." However, I think according to the Book of Mormon we are still gentiles - members are just grafted into Israel if they are not already descendants. For instance the BoM says that the fullness of the gospel will come from among "the gentiles." To me if people try to follow Christ's teachings, they are Christian. I've never heard other Church members call other Christians reprobates, etc. We don't even typically call them apostates even though technically we believe they are in some degree of apostasy - it is not intentional - they have been misled by the teachings of men (or if you are me, by the teachings of the great whore of Revelation - I know, ouch). Quote Another question that will probably not be a good one. Just like with 90% of faith groups, It is possible to be very active in a Mormon ward without being a member. I have experienced that for over a year. We attend all regular services; testify, serve as Sacrament service speakers, take the sacrament, donate, sing solos, sing in the choir, clean on Saturday, attend baptisms and funerals, drive missionaries to and from their place of calling, teach adult Sunday School (as a substitute), bring Mennonite cookies, salads, and jello, visit the sick and bereaving, attend all social functions, watch general conferences, attend stake conferences, volunteer for ministry opportunities, rescue the sacrament table cloth from roving toddlers, pray before and after meetings; surely I am missing something. Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Is it fairly common to have folks like us in a ward? I think you are uncommon I would find it quite strange if you have an official calling. I think that takes membership. I would hazard that you were not called as a substitute teacher, but that you just are available if the official teacher is absent, kind of thing. Investigators can do essentially all those things you mention without being members and without holding a calling. So you are the uncommon investigator - humble and silent servant named Phil... 1
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, Navidad said: Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? Anyone who has not yet accepted the restoration, is in a current state of apostasy. It doesn't mean you are a reprobate. It just means that you have not embraced the restoration via baptism, etc.
Navidad Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, pogi said: Eternal investigator. I guess that now we have abandoned the term "Mormon", you can have it. Dry Latter-day Saint just doesn't roll of the tongue quite right. I like that!
CV75 Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 22 hours ago, Navidad said: If a Latter-day Saint converts to another faith, is that considered a sin? If a person then resigns his or her membership can he or she subsequently be excommunicated? I think the answer must be no, but I am not sure. I think I have heard of folks resigning their membership to keep from being excommunicated. Is there some benefit to doing that? One other different thing; I ask this because of a real historical situation I am researching. I would like your thoughts. In 1889 a Saint was arrested and convicted for incest (not for plural marriage). He was sentenced to 10 years in Yuma Federal Penitentiary. He escaped and ran to a small Mexican colony where he lived, we know for at least 23 years. He had been excommunicated for his crime. He then was re-baptized and had "his blessings restored." - not sure what that means, in his new home ward. All this time he was wanted for his escape from prison. It is said he was then murdered in his home, but there are no civil records of his death and no records of his being buried in the LDS cemetery in the colony. Would it be considered rare or strange for a wanted man to be re-baptized (I have seen the records) and apparently being ordained into the priesthood without paying restitution for his escape, and having been convicted of incest? I know this was 100 years ago, but I have been asked to look into it by some of his descendants. A lot of it just doesn't make sense to me. Any thoughts? I think whether converting to another faith constitutes sin is between the individual and God. I'm sure people who do it don't consider it a sin, and that is where the judgement begins. God will let him know His mind in due time. Sometimes He lets His will be known through His authorized representative, so excommunication for apostasy may be deemed necessary at some point. I'd need more facts about the historical matter you bring up, but on the surface it seems to me the escaped prisoner would have needed to do more before qualifying for re-baptism. But maybe he did, or there is more to the story, and we have no record of it.
Navidad Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, RevTestament said: We are not like Muslims - non-members are not "infidels." Probably the worst characterization is "gentiles." However, I think according to the Book of Mormon we are still gentiles - members are just grafted into Israel if they are not already descendants. For instance the BoM says that the fullness of the gospel will come from among "the gentiles." To me if people try to follow Christ's teachings, they are Christian. I've never heard other Church members call other Christians reprobates, etc. We don't even typically call them apostates even though technically we believe they are in some degree of apostasy - it is not intentional - they have been misled by the teachings of men (or if you are me, by the teachings of the great whore of Revelation - I know, ouch). I think you are uncommon I would find it quite strange if you have an official calling. I think that takes membership. I would hazard that you were not called as a substitute teacher, but that you just are available if the official teacher is absent, kind of thing. Investigators can do essentially all those things you mention without being members and without holding a calling. So you are the uncommon investigator - humble and silent servant named Phil... Humble and Salient Servant Phil - I like that too! I will answer to that. Probably not so salient however.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, pogi said: Eternal investigator. I guess that now we have abandoned the term "Mormon", you can have it. Dry Latter-day Saint just doesn't roll of the tongue quite right. We no longer say Mormon and we no longer say "investigator". "Less Actives" are now referred to as "returning member". It would now be "a person who may or may not be taught by missionaries for the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints". Man, this is getting tough. Quote The term “less active” is no longer part of the Preach My Gospel manual, replaced with the concept of “returning member.” With the digital age allowing manuals to be updated on the fly, this is a change that actually occurred in April, but no one noticed. I’m not even sure the missionaries noticed, as the erstwhile term still pervades most interactions with them and ward mission-affiliated members. “Returning member” is not the only change in Preach My Gospel. “Investigator” has also been removed from the lexicon, replaced with “person being taught” or some other term that aptly describes the course that individual is pursuing, even if it is not quite as succinct. This is wise, as “investigator,” although common throughout the Latter-day Saint community, is a strange term to use if you step outside of your Mormon bubble and think about the way we describe someone. Wordier terminology it is. So there we have it. There is no LDS Church. There are no Mormons. There are no less active Mormons. There are no investigators. Go and teach your returning members! http://thisweekinmormons.com/2018/10/there-are-no-more-less-active-latter-day-saints-according-to-church-materials/?fbclid=IwAR2C0m3RI9VfVgLjLGwZAq0VE7X6gUGCJVe5znpaGmZI-nRw2ZOAw2Qzh3I 2
CV75 Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 32 minutes ago, Navidad said: Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? Another question that will probably not be a good one. Just like with 90% of faith groups, It is possible to be very active in a Mormon ward without being a member. I have experienced that for over a year. We attend all regular services; testify, serve as Sacrament service speakers, take the sacrament, donate, sing solos, sing in the choir, clean on Saturday, attend baptisms and funerals, drive missionaries to and from their place of calling, teach adult Sunday School (as a substitute), bring Mennonite cookies, salads, and jello, visit the sick and bereaving, attend all social functions, watch general conferences, attend stake conferences, volunteer for ministry opportunities, rescue the sacrament table cloth from roving toddlers, pray before and after meetings; surely I am missing something. Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Is it fairly common to have folks like us in a ward? Non-members that never were members cannot be apostates (per Handbook 1 definition) even if they belong to an apostate group or otherwise oppose the Church. They may have other rebellious moral and spiritual issues, including broader Judeo-Christian apostate leanings, but not that one. Your designation, to borrow an old-fashioned term, would be known as "a friend to the Church." But I'm sure your ward members call you "Brother." It is not uncommon to have one or two folks like you in a ward. 1
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: We no longer say Mormon and we no longer say "investigator". "Less Actives" are now referred to as "returning member". It would now be "a person who may or may not be taught by missionaries for the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints". Man, this is getting tough. I guess all the terms for Navidad just suck anymore. Dry Latter-day Saint and eternal person being taught... Lame! 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, CV75 said: Non-members that never were members cannot be apostates (per Handbook 1 definition) even if they belong to an apostate group or otherwise oppose the Church. They may have other rebellious moral and spiritual issues, including broader Judeo-Christian apostate leanings, but not that one. Your designation, to borrow an old-fashioned term, would be known as "a friend to the Church." But I'm sure your ward members call you "Brother." It is not uncommon to have one or two folks like you in a ward. Technically, anyone who isn't a Mormon member of the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints... is apostate from the true gospel of Jesus Christ, considering that all churches fell into apostasy and the church "restored" Christ's original church. No?
Navidad Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, pogi said: I guess all the terms for Navidad just suck anymore. Dry Latter-day Saint and eternal person being taught... Lame! Well, I'm not an investigator, nor an alligator (I prefer the Seminoles), but I am an instigator! Maybe that would fit!?
Calm Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, pogi said: Anyone who has not yet accepted the restoration, is in a current state of apostasy. It doesn't mean you are a reprobate. It just means that you have not embraced the restoration via baptism, etc. How can you apostatize from something you never personally accepted? Edited October 25, 2018 by Calm
MiserereNobis Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 28 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: We no longer say Mormon and we no longer say "investigator". "Less Actives" are now referred to as "returning member". It would now be "a person who may or may not be taught by missionaries for the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints". Man, this is getting tough. What’s up with all the word games? Is this all part of the rebranding effort?
CV75 Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 40 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Technically, anyone who isn't a Mormon member of the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints... is apostate from the true gospel of Jesus Christ, considering that all churches fell into apostasy and the church "restored" Christ's original church. No? “Technically?” OK… I can't seem to find a scriptural or Handbook reference designating those who are not members of the Church as “apostates”... I take the question to be about a social designation and not a catechism regarding the repudiation of the Restored Gospel (which not every non-member does, or even can do, either!).
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, Calm said: How can you apostatize from something you never personally accepted? Well, maybe I am thinking about this wrong. I am thinking in terms of the general apostasy. All of those who lived during the general apostasy were considered to be in a state of apostasy, even though they never had the opportunity to personally accept or reject the Church. I have considered that to mean that those who have not yet accepted the restoration are still in that state apostasy until they accept the restoration? But maybe that is the wrong way to think about it. I don't know for sure. Did the restoration lift all living beings out of a state of apostasy, or just those who accept the restoration? Maybe it is more accurate to say that Joseph Smith lifted the world out of general apostasy, and now we can only think of apostasy in the personal rather than general sense. I think I like that way of viewing it better. It makes sense. Quote When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng It is interesting that this definition describes apostasy in terms of "principles". In that sense, both active members, inactive members, ex-members, and never-members could potentially be in a state of apostasy according to how they heed the light of Christ which teaches true principles of the gospel of love. When it comes to apostasy, perhaps it is best for us to follow the counsel to "judge not", unless we are a judge in Israel of course, called to judge Church members and their states of apostasy. I think I have converted myself to a new way of thinking. Thanks for the nudge Calm! Navidad, perhaps it is best for you to personally decide if you are in a state of apostasy to the principles taught by the light within. We are not judges in Israel, and you are not a member of the Church, so it is not our place to judge you in matters of apostasy.
CV75 Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: What’s up with all the word games? Is this all part of the rebranding effort? It is not rebranding. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 51 minutes ago, Navidad said: Well, I'm not an investigator, nor an alligator (I prefer the Seminoles), but I am an instigator! Maybe that would fit!? An eternal instigator. That could be a good thing or a bad thing I guess, depending.
bluebell Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: What’s up with all the word games? Is this all part of the rebranding effort? For what it's worth, I haven't heard anything about not using investigator or less active. 1
The Nehor Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? Another question that will probably not be a good one. Just like with 90% of faith groups, It is possible to be very active in a Mormon ward without being a member. I have experienced that for over a year. We attend all regular services; testify, serve as Sacrament service speakers, take the sacrament, donate, sing solos, sing in the choir, clean on Saturday, attend baptisms and funerals, drive missionaries to and from their place of calling, teach adult Sunday School (as a substitute), bring Mennonite cookies, salads, and jello, visit the sick and bereaving, attend all social functions, watch general conferences, attend stake conferences, volunteer for ministry opportunities, rescue the sacrament table cloth from roving toddlers, pray before and after meetings; surely I am missing something. Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Is it fairly common to have folks like us in a ward? No, you cannot be an apostate if you never affiliated. In that circumstance you are a heathen.
The Nehor Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, katherine the great said: Do we EVER excommunicate for it? I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for being inactive. I have heard of it happening but it was a very unique circumstance and I am not sure how reliable the story is.
katherine the great Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I have heard of it happening but it was a very unique circumstance and I am not sure how reliable the story is. It seems so pointless. 1
flameburns623 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok, I shudder to ask this question, but I must . . . what about those who never were members of the Church - are they apostate, reprobate, or something else? Another question that will probably not be a good one. Just like with 90% of faith groups, It is possible to be very active in a Mormon ward without being a member. I have experienced that for over a year. We attend all regular services; testify, serve as Sacrament service speakers, take the sacrament, donate, sing solos, sing in the choir, clean on Saturday, attend baptisms and funerals, drive missionaries to and from their place of calling, teach adult Sunday School (as a substitute), bring Mennonite cookies, salads, and jello, visit the sick and bereaving, attend all social functions, watch general conferences, attend stake conferences, volunteer for ministry opportunities, rescue the sacrament table cloth from roving toddlers, pray before and after meetings; surely I am missing something. Besides being "dry Mormons" is there any other designation for us? Is it fairly common to have folks like us in a ward? The bishop of the ward you attend shouldn't receive financial contributions from you AFAIK. Nonmembers are not encouraged to partake of Sacrament, bear testimony, offer public prayers, serve in priesthood callings. However unless formally under discipline, they usually are not prevented from doing so either. Unbaptised attendees are Investigors. You are well-disposed to ultimately receive the Gospel, if not in this life then in the intermediate state of the Afterlife we commonly call "Spirit Prison". While those who leave the Church, formally or informally, would be deemed "apostates", if they do not become willful vitriolic adversaries of the Church, it is always possible that their departure was owing to some lack of understanding and that they will have some opportunity to progress in the life to come. 1
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