Navidad Posted November 4, 2018 Author Posted November 4, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And it's odd that he cannot understand "Mormon exclusivity" when after all the Catholics invented it. No we did not break off from you guys- arguably- but we certainly understand competing claims of exclusive authority That's one of the reasons I have never been able to figure out Protestantism- on one hand each denomination stresses one doctrine over another defends those doctrines vigorously. There are entire boards on which Protestants argue about baptism and it's necessity Certainly one side thinks they are right while the other is wrong. It's like someone took the "Glass of Truth" and shattered it and now everyone is arguing that they have a bigger piece than the others when they are the ones who broke the glass in the first place I don't get it. So much for "one faith one baptism" Sigh!
Navidad Posted November 4, 2018 Author Posted November 4, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You see this is the sort of thing I am shocked to see in your posts." The answer is easily found in our most elementary book on doctrine, "Gospel Principles" which is taught every Sunday in Sunday School in regular wards for investigators and those who are not members who want to learn more. I cannot imagine that you are not aware of this volume and because you are I have truly questioned the leadership of your ward that you would not be encouraged to attend this class and take the missionary lessons. So here is the link to your question and with it, a link to the book itself which I suggest you study. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/06195_eng.pdf?lang=eng Since one cannot enter the temple without following the WoW then one cannot receive the ordinances of exaltation - without which one may be "saved" in a Christian sense but not "Exalted" in the view of the COJCLDS. I would suggest that you look up doctrinal questions like these in this volume so you are more acquainted with our beliefs regarding the basics. Sigh Sigh Sigh! Yes, indeed I have "Gospel Principles" right here on my desk. So yes, I am much more than "aware" of it. Regular wards?" Pick on me all you want; I am immune to your meanness by now. But I don't appreciate your speaking with your typical sarcasm and mean-spiritedness of our ward. They are doing exactly what they should be in trying to help my wife and I learn about the Church. They testify more of "Gospel Principles" than your pragmatism and meanness ever could. I study people, I listen, I watch, I learn. I read your posts. I learn from you, enough at this point, that I usually ignore you. If you are an example of "Gospel Principles" in your demeanor, manner, and haughtiness then I will never be baptized, regardless of what "the book" says. I am reading you. And now you mock my ward. I must ignore Saints like you and look for the goodness and kindness in others. The "Gospel Principles" book calls the Word of Wisdom a "temporal law" by the way. It calls the "law of health" the law of the Lord. That goes way beyond the Word of Wisdom into overeating, red meat, and much more. So it seems reasonable to me to ask about the difference between the law of tithing (which many if not most Christians accept), together with the law of fasting (which many if not most Christians accept) and the ever-changing "law of the word of wisdom" which to my observation, even many Saints don't agree about the specifics of it. The Word of Wisdom is a constantly changing set of practical principles that are wonderful to follow. I am a huge believer in the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit; probably more so than the Saints who relegate all Christians who are not Saints to being a motel where the Spirit spends a night or two but does not "dwell." I strive and struggle every day to be a suitable place for the Holy Spirit to dwell in many more ways than in what I ingest. So mock me and avoid hot tea. It that combination is the "Gospel Principle" of the Latter-day Saint, I will happily move on. So I asked a question about these laws and again you have mocked me. Well guess what, I know what the Gospel Principles" says about the Word of Wisdom on pages 167-172 and I have known that for at least thirty years. I still have questions about it. Why aren't playing cards, representing gambling which is very harmful in there? Why isn't dancing in there? Why isn't refusing to support Hollywood movies with all the ancillary immorality and amorality in its culture? Why did I hear last Sunday that we should fast if we truly want God to do something for us? I believe we fast to honor God and show self-discipline whether we "want" something or not. That was the first question my wife asked me when we got in the car. I was also surprised that was from a member of the high council. So yes, I have lots of questions about the practical application of Mormonism in one's life. So mock away. The Book of Mormon has some rough things to say about those dressed in fine apparel who mock those seeking the fruit of the tree of life. You are like those big crowds in the big fine building. Whether you believe it or not, I am trying to grasp hold of the rod of iron as I find my way through the confusing world of Mormonism to the tree and its fruit. In Lehi's dream the folks ate and were ashamed because of the mocking of the naysayers. So mock away, I won't be ashamed of my questions no matter how shocked you are at them. Using your words again "I am looking up doctrinal questions like these" in your lives because I have already read the books. I know the basics, what I am trying to learn is the reality! I heavily edited my reply to remove most of the toxic things I wrote and regret. Edited November 4, 2018 by Navidad Regret
Navidad Posted November 4, 2018 Author Posted November 4, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Luckily, the Catholic Church being what it is (a lover of systematics), there is a ranking of what is essential and how much you have to believe. Here is a good summary: The Virgin of Guadalupe is a Marian apparition declared worthy of belief, but it is not required (as declared by the Church), so a Mexican Catholic who says you have to believe it is not correct. The issue comes down to the details, then. What is essential and non-essential? Catholicism has many dogmatically declared essential beliefs and practices that protestants do not have. We cannot unify and ignore the essentials, because the essentials are the truth. If Catholicism is what it claims it is, the Church of Christ, then our duty is clear: we must share this with the protestants in hopes of their coming home to Rome. We have foot washing, too, by the way. On Maundy Thursday of Holy Week, the bishop washes the feet of select individuals as part of the Mass. See, you can join us and still have foot washing as part of the liturgy Hi: I thought I replied to you earlier, but I don't see it anywhere. The vagaries of quoting and replying on this board are sometimes beyond me. Your question, "what is essential and non-essential" is the essential question! I mean no disrespect but, living in a dominantly Catholic culture here in Mexico, I would suggest that "Catholicism has many dogmatically declared essential beliefs and practices" that Catholics 9not just Protestants) do not have. That is why I question that your fancy list has anything to do with reality here in our village where we have 1182 people, of which I would guess 1170 are Catholic by baptism and self-proclaimed faith. Your list is wonderful theory, but I see little of it in the reality of the individual Catholic's faith in the popular Catholicism of the Mexican pueblo. That is why I get confused about those things you deem "essential." What is essential here is belief in the Virgin of Guadalupe. She is ubiquitous - the Queen of Mexico. Zapata fought under her banner. The same hierarchy that established the essentials are seen as the non-Mexican foreign hierarchy who abandoned the lay Catholics in the first and second Cristero Wars. That is as real today as if it happened yesterday. The living room altars are essential here. They aren't in your list. The Matachin dancers protect the crops and invoke God' blessing on them. They are essential here. Any priest who speaks ill of them doesn't last long. Yesterday, the Day of the Dead observations were essential here; banks were closed in their honor. The capillas beside the road are essential here. They aren't on your list.To be fair, it doesn't say anywhere in the "Gospel Principles" that Catholics have to abandon belief in the primacy of the Virgin of Guadalupe to convert. My observation is that they don't. So, getting back to what is essential and what is non-essential. I am not sure that in reality we have an answer to that yet. Our local priest is a wonderful Godly man. He has cancer. My wife and I pray for him every day. He is a humble, yet strong man. He is troubled by the lack of spirituality in our village. His talks with me are one reason I titled my series of books on Mexican religion, predominantly (83%) Catholic, "The Search for the Soul of Mexico." Maybe we each, in our own respective faiths are still searching for "the essentials of our own personal faith." I know I am. Best to you. Edited November 4, 2018 by Navidad
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2018 Posted November 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Navidad said: Sigh Sigh Sigh! Yes, indeed I have "Gospel Principles" right here on my desk. So yes, I am much more than "aware" of it. Regular wards?" Pick on me all you want; I am immune to your meanness by now. But I don't appreciate your speaking with your typical sarcasm and mean-spiritedness of our ward. They are doing exactly what they should be in trying to help my wife and I learn about the Church. They testify more of "Gospel Principles" than your pragmatism and meanness ever could. I study people, I listen, I watch, I learn. I read your posts. I learn from you, enough at this point, that I usually ignore you. If you are an example of "Gospel Principles" in your demeanor, manner, and haughtiness then I will never be baptized, regardless of what "the book" says. I am reading you. And now you mock my ward. I must ignore Saints like you and look for the goodness and kindness in others. The "Gospel Principles" book calls the Word of Wisdom a "temporal law" by the way. It calls the "law of health" the law of the Lord. That goes way beyond the Word of Wisdom into overeating, red meat, and much more. So it seems reasonable to me to ask about the difference between the law of tithing (which many if not most Christians accept), together with the law of fasting (which many if not most Christians accept) and the ever-changing "law of the word of wisdom" which to my observation, even many Saints don't agree about the specifics of it. The Word of Wisdom is a constantly changing set of practical principles that are wonderful to follow. I am a huge believer in the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit; probably more so than the Saints who relegate all Christians who are not Saints to being a motel where the Spirit spends a night or two but does not "dwell." I strive and struggle every day to be a suitable place for the Holy Spirit to dwell in many more ways than in what I ingest. So mock me and avoid hot tea. It that combination is the "Gospel Principle" of the Latter-day Saint, I will happily move on. So I asked a question about these laws and again you have mocked me. Well guess what, I know what the Gospel Principles" says about the Word of Wisdom on pages 167-172 and I have known that for at least thirty years. I still have questions about it. Why aren't playing cards, representing gambling which is very harmful in there? Why isn't dancing in there? Why isn't refusing to support Hollywood movies with all the ancillary immorality and amorality in its culture? Why did I hear last Sunday that we should fast if we truly want God to do something for us? I believe we fast to honor God and show self-discipline whether we "want" something or not. That was the first question my wife asked me when we got in the car. I was also surprised that was from a member of the high council. So yes, I have lots of questions about the practical application of Mormonism in one's life. So mock away. The Book of Mormon has some rough things to say about those dressed in fine apparel who mock those seeking the fruit of the tree of life. You are like those big crowds in the big fine building. Whether you believe it or not, I am trying to grasp hold of the rod of iron as I find my way through the confusing world of Mormonism to the tree and its fruit. In Lehi's dream the folks ate and were ashamed because of the mocking of the naysayers. So mock away, I won't be ashamed of my questions no matter how shocked you are at them. Using your words again "I am looking up doctrinal questions like these" in your lives because I have already read the books. I know the basics, what I am trying to learn is the reality! I heavily edited my reply to remove most of the toxic things I wrote and regret. Well I don't know what to say other than I apologize for you feeling that you were mocked and if you feel I have said mean things. That was not my intention at all. The good news for you is I will not post any more about your posts. I wish you the best and I hope all things turn out for you the way God wants them to.
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