Refined in the fire?

[changed]

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

Changed, could you help a slow on the uptake person like me understand your question, I need help. 😣

[CV75]

2 hours ago, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

Abuse destroys; only Jesus Christ restores and refines. No matter how deep the abuse, every spirit child of God has it within herself to look to Jesus for restoration and refinement. This “looking” begins with a desire to stay alive, live and then to believe, which evolves into faith and then hope, and finally into charity.

There is no specified one-fits-all timetable, but very child of God can expect eventual restoration, healing and refinement in this life or the next. If any or all of that has been irrevocably taken from someone in the flesh (murder, both physical and psychic, are examples; rape and child abuse and so forth are similarly murderous of physical and spiritual well-being), life in the spirit world continues in anticipation of the resurrection, and the spirit can still look to Christ in paradise.

When we say that trials refine us, we mean that looking to Christ in relation to them refines us, whenever that opportunity is afforded. This is why we don’t judge others of lacking that capacity, for it can be lost in this life through no fault of their own, and those of us who recognize our capacity try to give Him priority over our trials. Or, if we can even feel we lost it, we still have the capacity to turn it around through Christ. But some don't even have that for the rest of their mortal lives, and I believe these are received into the arms of Jesus most immediately after death.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Changed, could you help a slow on the uptake person like me understand your question, I need help. 😣

Quoting myself, and have realized what you mean Changed.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, changed said:

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

I'm no expert on abuse or its results.

But any trial that causes an increase in faith and reliance on God has a refining process.

Abuse doesn't refine.  Building faith in God sufficient to overcome, endure, or  move beyond the trial is what refines. (6th Lecture on Faith)

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

Depends on what "trial" you refer to, (1) the trial of faith of the victims, (2) the psychological and physical trial the victims suffer, (3) the criminal court trial of the abuser, (4) the civil trial for monetary damages against those who did not exercise due diligence in protecting the innocent victims, or (5) the trial members and non-members go through just reading about and discussing abuse.

Is suffering a good thing?  Does it refine our souls?  Or is suffering only a Satanic plot to hurt everyone?  The Buddha said that desire is the beginning of suffering.  Was he correct, and is suffering only really an illusion??

[Rivers]

I am reminded of the scene in Lord of the Rings when Frodo says, “I wish none of this ever happened to me.”  And Gandalf responds, “So do all who live to see such times.  But that is not for them to decide.  All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.” 

Life sucks.  Some get it worse than others.  Things that happen to us are often out of our control.  But we can always choose how we respond to things.  The way we respond to life’s adversities helps define us.  

I hope that answers the question.

[Danzo]

My wife was abused as a child when she was living in Mexico.  It wasn't until she joined the church and talked it over with her branch president as a youth that she was able be healed of the damage that was done to her.  While she isn't happy for what was done to her, doesn't wish it on anyone and wishes it had never happened to her, she has an unshakable testimony of the atonement of Jesus Christ and its power in her life to heal.  I don't believe the abuse refines, but the healing is real.

[smac97]

19 hours ago, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

Not sure what you mean by "what is the point."  We are hear under a "Plan of Salvation."  Integral to the Plan is Agency, the ability to choose.  Sin is a natural and foreseeable consequence of the use of agency.  Sin, or the consequences of it, can be overcome.  "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."  (AoF 1:3).

Thanks,

-Smac

[changed]

46 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Not sure what you mean by "what is the point." 

 

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Changed, could you help a slow on the uptake person like me understand your question, I need help. 😣

 

Let me try to further explain with examples of other common trials, and perhaps common lessons that can be learned from them:

• Trials with poor health - learn lessons on how to take better care of your body, lessons about not being vain, 
• Trials of poor finances - learn lessons on not being greedy, have more compassion for the poor, learn work ethic etc.
• Trials of natural disasters (flood, fire, earthquakes) - learn how to rebuild, how to serve, letting go of materialism

So.... what lessons and refinement is supposed to happen for victims of abuse?  Abuse tends to destroy trust, destroy love, destroy faith, destroy everything we are supposed to be getting strong in.... 

 

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, changed said:

 

 

Let me try to further explain with examples of other common trials, and perhaps common lessons that can be learned from them:

• Trials with poor health - learn lessons on how to take better care of your body, lessons about not being vain, 
• Trials of poor finances - learn lessons on not being greedy, have more compassion for the poor, learn work ethic etc.
• Trials of natural disasters (flood, fire, earthquakes) - learn how to rebuild, how to serve, letting go of materialism

So.... what lessons and refinement is supposed to happen for victims of abuse?  Abuse tends to destroy trust, destroy love, destroy faith, destroy everything we are supposed to be getting strong in.... 

 

I am not sure that bad thing that happens to us has to be for a reason, other than letting others have their agency. 

Sometimes the only thing we learn from these trials is how to feel sorrow for sins and to "experience evil that we might know the good".

I think of the saviors life.  He suffered much, not so that he could learn a practical lesson, but to fully understand the mortal experience

"And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.  And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities."

 

 

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, changed said:

So.... what lessons and refinement is supposed to happen for victims of abuse?  Abuse tends to destroy trust, destroy love, destroy faith, destroy everything we are supposed to be getting strong in.... 

Abuse can destroy all of those things.  The experience of recovery through Christ is like going from a state of drowning, to a gasp of fresh air.  It can be that drastic and profound.  Imagine your most profound pain which causes you to contract in pain, being released in Christ - would that not build faith?  Would that not fill your life with purpose to help others heal?  

Every experience in life is a moving experience, it is ultimately up to us to decide which direction we want the experience to move us - towards Christ or away.

Often times the most painful and difficult trials result in the deepest conversion.

That is why recovery through Christ can be such a powerful and refining experience.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by pogi

[BlueDreams]

20 hours ago, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

Oddly enough, I was talking about this very thing in a group workshop on sexual assault related to a podcast I'm participating in that's discussing the topic of sexual assault/abuse among LDS women. If you're interested the podcast is called "On Sovereign Wings" And is available on apple podcasts. It's just barely starting though and currently has just the introduction episode up. 

I started the topic of pain by explaining that when you work or see assault/abuse cases on a regular basis, you get used to a degree of injustice that implicit in their stories. Whether that entails the actions themselves, what happens to their perpetrators in the short term, or legal/social reactions to the abuse. It's not okay, but no matter how far you dig into these areas, you have to accept the areas of influence you do and don't have to illicit change or you can drive yourself crazy hitting up against invisible walls. 

That said, I talked about two types of pain: Harming and healing pain.

Harmful pain is like the pain they experienced directly from their assualt or abuse. It's destructive, unjust, and not something that God or fate or what have you, intends for a person to have. It isn't necessary or good. On a religious note, this type of pain can grow on itself and begin to destroy individuals, families, social structures, and overall societies, as seen in the BoM especially.

Healing pain is the pain that one must go through in order to  become whole again. It is necessary and what God intends, in other words. Some pain, in my opinion, is sacred in nature. Grief, for example, is sacred. It represents the loss of someone or something loved....something beautiful in one's life. 

To give an example of this, I made an analogy to our own shelters. There were black and white houses that had parts of them colored red. on the non-red parts, they put positive and happy memories. On the back of the red ones, went their most painful experiences, that were put aside. With just the white parts, they were asked to construct a shelter or a place that they would find safety. These refuges were incomplete, temporary, precarious, and insecure. I explain that the pains on the back were the things that kicked out part of their shelters, but that the experiences of healing pain were the ones that would help bring them back together. I also explained that by avoiding our pain or lives inevitably become defined by it.

And then I explained my own course of healing from my biggest harmful pains, though not sexual assault. It wasn't easy, the path and journey often took years...it included seeking God and moving through grief that I hadn't allowed myself to feel, forgiving others, several phases of therapy, letting go of control, coping mechanisms, and unhealthy patterns within myself... being vulnerable to those who truly loved me and that I trusted, etc. These aren't easy, they often included feeling pain....sometimes short lived, and sometimes for years. But it did give me wholeness and what I learned and became in this journey was invaluable to such an extent that I wouldn't change my own experience of it. Not that I would wish it on another....just that the journey of healing pain made me at peace with the harmful aspects. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited October 4, 2018 by BlueDreams

[rpn]

22 hours ago, changed said:

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine? 

I don't believe for any iota of any second that God aids/ abets/ sets up/ intends for/... abuse.  It isn't a trial in the sense that it would be something intended to refine or that He planned to refine.   If your question is whether there is any good that could come out of it,  I think not if you are referring to the heinous actions themselves.   But if you are speaking about what happens as the result of living through the experience, then yes, some can make lemonade out of some some part of the lemon, or more commonly, instead of the lemon.  One of my friends got a child, whom she dearly loved and who brought her lots of joy, though she eventually committed suicide because of the rape (and many women must place a child of rape for adoption or abort them because raising the child forces regular reliving of the rape --- not sure how a child born of rape deals with that origin fact).   I am of more use to God in service to others because of what I learned as a date rape survivor (and a bunch of other really awful things I've lived).

Edited October 4, 2018 by rpn

[rpn]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

I don't believe for any iota of any second that God aids/ abets/ sets up/ intends for/... abuse.  It isn't a trial in the sense that it would be something intended to refine or that He planned to refine.   If your question is whether there is any good that could come out of it,  I think not if you are referring to the heinous actions themselves.   But if you are speaking about what happens as the result of living through the experience, then yes, some can make lemonade out of some some part of the lemon, or more commonly, instead of the lemon.  One of my friends got a child, whom she dearly loved and who brought her lots of joy, though she eventually committed suicide because of the rape (and many women must place a child of rape for adoption or abort them because raising the child forces regular reliving of the rape ---- not sure how a child who was born of rape ever deals with that origin fact, themselves).   I am of more use to God in service to others because of what I learned as a date rape survivor (and a bunch of other really awful things I've lived).

 

[Walden]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

I don't believe for any iota of any second that God aids/ abets/ sets up/ intends for/... abuse.  It isn't a trial in the sense that it would be something intended to refine or that He planned to refine.   If your question is whether there is any good that could come out of it,  I think not if you are referring to the heinous actions themselves.   But if you are speaking about what happens as the result of living through the experience, then yes, some can make lemonade out of some some part of the lemon, or more commonly, instead of the lemon.  One of my friends got a child, whom she dearly loved and who brought her lots of joy, though she eventually committed suicide because of the rape (and many women must place a child of rape for adoption or abort them because raising the child forces regular reliving of the rape.   I am of more use to God in service to others because of what I learned as a date rape survivor (and a bunch of other really awful things I've lived).

But doesn't God know everything that has ever happened and will ever happen....with his omnipotent knowledge and power, God knows what every person will choose and decide and how they will act before it even happens; God cannot be surprised. He knows that the rapist will rape, the abuser will abuse and that the victims will be the victims long before it ever occurs in real time. In a sense, he is not responsible then for setting this up or intending it?

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Walden said:

But doesn't God know everything that has ever happened and will ever happen....with his omnipotent knowledge and power, God knows what every person will choose and decide and how they will act before it even happens; God cannot be surprised. He knows that the rapist will rape, the abuser will abuse and that the victims will be the victims long before it ever occurs in real time. In a sense, he is not responsible then for setting this up or intending it?

That's kind of like saying that a parent who brings a child into the world--who knows for an absolute fact that the child will experience pain, sorrow, heartache, and hurt at times throughout their lives--set it up or intended for the child to feel those things.  That doesn't seem very reasonable to me.  Knowing that pain and hurt will happen isn't the same thing as setting them up or intending for them to happen.  

[Walden]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's kind of like saying that a parent who brings a child into the world--who knows for an absolute fact that the child will experience pain, sorrow, heartache, and hurt at times throughout their lives--set it up or intended for the child to feel those things.  That doesn't seem very reasonable to me.  Knowing that pain and hurt will happen isn't the same thing as setting them up or intending for them to happen.  

If I knew my child was going to be Adolf Hitler, would I go through with the pregnancy?

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Walden said:

If I knew my child was going to be Adolf Hitler, would I go through with the pregnancy?

I don't know, would you?  Would you kill children for crimes they haven't committed yet but which you knew they would commit?  Would you find that to be just?

Edited October 4, 2018 by bluebell

[bsjkki]

On 10/3/2018 at 4:14 PM, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.  

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

I've only seen abuse cause immense amounts of pain for all involved. Most girls I know that suffered sexual abuse as a teen are no longer active but I also know a few that, through lots of counseling and compassionate pastoral care, returned to the gospel after many years of pain. I hope the #metoo movement provides a springboard for more understanding and training for all Bishops in the church. 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Let me try to further explain with examples of other common trials, and perhaps common lessons that can be learned from them:

• Trials with poor health - learn lessons on how to take better care of your body, lessons about not being vain, 
• Trials of poor finances - learn lessons on not being greedy, have more compassion for the poor, learn work ethic etc.
• Trials of natural disasters (flood, fire, earthquakes) - learn how to rebuild, how to serve, letting go of materialism

So.... what lessons and refinement is supposed to happen for victims of abuse?  Abuse tends to destroy trust, destroy love, destroy faith, destroy everything we are supposed to be getting strong in.... 

Not every trial has a corresponding object lesson, and "blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble," so I would that say every trial can be associated with every Beatitude, which are the first lessons Jesus wants us to learn so we can apply the broader doctrines of life in His kingdom more effectively (and vice-versa). I think abuse is involved when any of the trials you listed above (and any other) comes by way of someone intentionally imposing it on another for his own gratification, which is evil. This is the kind of trial that requires forgiveness for healing and why only a God can make that possible through His own sacrifice, for both minor personal offenses and major forms of abuse.

[Walden]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know, would you?  Would you kill children for crimes they haven't committed yet but which you knew they would commit?  Would you find that to be just?

If I had the omnipotence to know without a doubt of the untold trauma and suffering that would be unleashed by my unborn child in the years to come, yes I would terminate that pregnancy (I am saying that as a father of three children). It may not be just for that one unborn child, but certainly it would be for his many victims.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

 

Let me try to further explain with examples of other common trials, and perhaps common lessons that can be learned from them:

• Trials with poor health - learn lessons on how to take better care of your body, lessons about not being vain, 
• Trials of poor finances - learn lessons on not being greedy, have more compassion for the poor, learn work ethic etc.
• Trials of natural disasters (flood, fire, earthquakes) - learn how to rebuild, how to serve, letting go of materialism

So.... what lessons and refinement is supposed to happen for victims of abuse?  Abuse tends to destroy trust, destroy love, destroy faith, destroy everything we are supposed to be getting strong in.... 

 

When you put it that way, I think it's the opposite of refine, to be abused.

re·fine

rəˈfīn/

verb

 

1. remove impurities or unwanted elements from (a substance), typically as part of an industrial process.

   "sugar was refined by boiling it in huge iron vats"

   synonyms:

   purify, process, treat "refining our cereal foods"

   • improve (something) by making small changes, in particular make (an idea, theory, or method) more subtle and accurate.

     "ease of access to computers has refined analysis and presentation of data"

     synonyms:

     improve, perfect, polish (up), hone, fine-tune "helping students to refine their language skills"

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

If I had the omnipotence to know without a doubt of the untold trauma and suffering that would be unleashed by my unborn child in the years to come, yes I would terminate that pregnancy (I am saying that as a father of three children). It may not be just for that one unborn child, but certainly it would be for his many victims.

An omniscient would also know all the factors shaping that unborn child through the years, and seek to terminate those factors long before terminating the child, and terminate those factors shaping those persons unleashing the factors shaping the unborn child and so on, even before they were born, and without terminating any of the would-be perpetrators. An omniscient would accomplish that by invitation rather than compulsion, knowing that only his own sacrifice would accomplish it. This is what Jesus did; He atoned for all things so that everyone can choose what they unleash (or organize) thereby choosing their end.

Edited October 5, 2018 by CV75

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't know, would you?  Would you kill children for crimes they haven't committed yet but which you knew they would commit?  Would you find that to be just?

I don't believe God knows ahead of time.