Refined in the fire?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

If I had the omnipotence to know without a doubt of the untold trauma and suffering that would be unleashed by my unborn child in the years to come, yes I would terminate that pregnancy (I am saying that as a father of three children). It may not be just for that one unborn child, but certainly it would be for his many victims.

I might do the same (though I noticed that you did not answer my question about whether or not you would kill your born child if you knew that he or she would eventually kill millions.  It's much easier to talk about sacrificing a child that you don't have to look in the eyes while you do it, or that you don't already know and love).  Thankfully though, God, unlike you and me, is perfectly just.  

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe God knows ahead of time.

Ok.  I do.

[changed]

I just finished my "Safe Colleges" training, the new stats for the year:  

 

"Among undergraduates, 23.1 percent of females and 5.4 percent of males experiences rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence or incapacitation."  

When I first started teaching ~ 20 years ago it was only 10%.  

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

I just finished my "Safe Colleges" training, the new stats for the year:  

 

"Among undergraduates, 23.1 percent of females and 5.4 percent of males experiences rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence or incapacitation."  

When I first started teaching ~ 20 years ago it was only 10%.  

That may be due to better reporting and not increased assaults.  Might not be, but given the greater scrutiny of law enforcement, etc., if the rate of actual assaults has more than doubled, I would like to hear any explanation they gave for this.

[changed]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

That may be due to better reporting and not increased assaults.  Might not be, but given the greater scrutiny of law enforcement, etc., if the rate of actual assaults has more than doubled, I would like to hear any explanation they gave for this.

 

No reasons were given, only stats.  

This year they added a segment on alcohol (our campus does not allow alcohol on campus or at any college events), and also included % of male students (I do not remember the % of male students being reported in the past.)   A few other stats from the training:

• Among undergraduates, 23.1 percent of females and 5.4 percent of males experiences rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence or incapacitation.
• 21% of transgender, gender queer and nonconforming (TGQN) college students have been sexually assaulted, compared with 18% of non-TGQN females and 4% of non-TGQN males.  
• Only 20% of female students age 18-24 who have experienced sexual violence make a report to law enforcement
• About one in six college-age female survivors received assistance from a victim services agency.
• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention acknowledges that more than 32,000 pregnancies result from rape every year 

Google "Sexual Violence Elimination (SaVE) Act"

HIV/AIDS Awareness:

• First identified as a disease in 1981
• At the end of 2015, an estimated 1.1 million people 13 and older were living with HIV infection in the US
• In 2016, the number of new HIV diagnoses in the US was 39,782
• An estimated 1 million people died from AIDS-related illnesses in 2016.  An estimated 35 million people have died from AIDS-related illnesses since the start of the epidemic
• AIDS remains the dominant major health crisis worldwide for which there still remains no cure.

Here are some #'s
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

This actually shows the #'s are down which is odd- I really do remember them saying 10% when I first started teaching.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem

 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by changed

[changed]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

... recovery through Christ can be such a powerful and refining experience.  

 

13 hours ago, bsjkki said:

.....Most girls I know that suffered sexual abuse as a teen are no longer active .....

 

The case I was involved with last year involves a few people who went inactive... 

So - what would be the best way for the church to support abuse victims?

Edited October 5, 2018 by changed

[CV75]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

I might do the same (though I noticed that you did not answer my question about whether or not you would kill your born child if you knew that he or she would eventually kill millions.  It's much easier to talk about sacrificing a child that you don't have to look in the eyes while you do it, or that you don't already know and love).  Thankfully though, God, unlike you and me, is perfectly just.  

An omniscient also knows that knowledge is only part of the equation for existence, that charity is just as important. And that knowledge and charity are only obtained through agency, which is why he would change the course of history only through an infinite atonement, allowing the benefactors to choose their outcome. And that being alone as an omniscient is no way to know all things. Through the Atonement of Christ we are all omniscient, we just live below our privileges for now, anyway.

[Walden]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe God knows ahead of time.

If you do not believe that God knows the future, then you cannot believe that God is omniscient. If God knows every hair on my head, every intent of my heart, every thought in my head (as an omniscient being would) then he must surely know how I will act and react in every situation before that situation occurs in real time/Earth time.

This is one of the issues that I have always had difficulty wrapping my head around....an omniscient God would know my life story before it even unfolds, and thus he would know what kingdom I will inherit from the moment I am born.

Do you think that God can be surprised? This idea goes against everything I have been taught of the Christian God, the Mormon God, and would mean that he is not in fact omniscient.

[rodheadlee]

On 10/3/2018 at 3:14 PM, changed said:

I do not want to start another thread on who is guilty and who is innocent - but rather a more general approach.   and 

For those who have actually been abused (and it seems this is a real issue, with a large % of females who have been abused).  What is the point of this trial?  Does abuse refine?

You must learn to ask Heavenly Father to take your pain and suffering and to lay the burden on His Son, Jesus Christ. Literally. I have experienced immediate relief.

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

 

The case I was involved with last year involves a few people who went inactive... 

So - what would be the best way for the church to support abuse victims?

A good beginning would be for Bishops not to have abuse victims “repent.” 

[changed]

50 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

You must learn to ask Heavenly Father to take your pain and suffering and to lay the burden on His Son, Jesus Christ. Literally. I have experienced immediate relief.

 

So, the point of the trial is to experience the atonement?  ... There are quite a few people who have not experienced relief...

Mercy and justice - Alma 37:30. ... the Lord will not suffer blood of Saints to cry for vengeance and he avenge them not...?  Is it wrong to "cry for vengeance"?

Edited October 5, 2018 by changed

[changed]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

I might do the same (though I noticed that you did not answer my question about whether or not you would kill your born child if you knew that he or she would eventually kill millions.  It's much easier to talk about sacrificing a child that you don't have to look in the eyes while you do it, or that you don't already know and love).  Thankfully though, God, unlike you and me, is perfectly just.  

 

Is everyone a determinist here? thinks what some spirit will do is set in stone, that people cannot be changed by education?

Let's say we know some percentage of people are going to have this natural problem - an addiction, or whatever you want to call it - this disease of the mind and body - that will cause them to harm others... that is how I am choosing to look at it, as a disease... there are medications, there are environmental controls to put in place - there are solutions to it if the problem is not hidden in a "shame culture".  

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Is everyone a determinist here? thinks what some spirit will do is set in stone, that people cannot be changed by education?

Let's say we know some percentage of people are going to have this natural problem - an addiction, or whatever you want to call it - this disease of the mind and body - that will cause them to harm others... that is how I am choosing to look at it, as a disease... there are medications, there are environmental controls to put in place - there are solutions to it if the problem is not hidden in a "shame culture".  

I don't really understand this question.  We're not talking about someone being predetermined to do something or never changing or growing, we are talking about knowing someone so well and so completely (all of their past experiences, their secret feelings, even the thoughts in their head) that it's possible to always know what they are going to do in any situation 100% of the time.  

None of us know anyone else that well, but God does.   

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

If you do not believe that God knows the future, then you cannot believe that God is omniscient. If God knows every hair on my head, every intent of my heart, every thought in my head (as an omniscient being would) then he must surely know how I will act and react in every situation before that situation occurs in real time/Earth time.

This is one of the issues that I have always had difficulty wrapping my head around....an omniscient God would know my life story before it even unfolds, and thus he would know what kingdom I will inherit from the moment I am born.

Do you think that God can be surprised? This idea goes against everything I have been taught of the Christian God, the Mormon God, and would mean that he is not in fact omniscient.

More and more I have wondered if the word "test" really covers what was meant by one of the purposes of life we have been taught. That it doesn't mean we will see IF we will have exhaltation or if God will see IF we have it when he already knows, but to help us prove/become more like Him. The testing or proving process that changes us rather than the end result.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Rain

[changed]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't really understand this question.  We're not talking about someone being predetermined to do something or never changing or growing, we are talking about knowing someone so well and so completely (all of their past experiences, their secret feelings, even the thoughts in their head) that it's possible to always know what they are going to do in any situation 100% of the time.  

None of us know anyone else that well, but God does.   

 

if you know... why not put everyone in situations that will lead to the best outcome for everyone?

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

 

if you know... why not put everyone in situations that will lead to the best outcome for everyone?

I think that God does.  But I don't think that means He puts us in the easiest situations, or ones where we won't ever be impacted by the sins of others.

[Rain]

28 minutes ago, changed said:

 

if you know... why not put everyone in situations that will lead to the best outcome for everyone?

Earth's not the outcome. Eternity is. We know so little about that it would be impossible to judge the best outcome of eternity by the outcome of earth. Besides, what if outer darkness is the best outcome for some people? 

That all stems on agency. If we must have agency, and our doctrine says we must, then that has to allow the idea that even if God puts us in situations that should lead us to the best outcome then some will chose not to follow that path. And if its the case that God put us there for the best outcome then the best outcome for some people is outer darkness. 

I know that is not easy to accept especially when we think about our loved ones and how God is supposed to love us so much more than we can. Parents get just a taste of it when our children follow paths we would not have them on.

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Rain

[Walden]

50 minutes ago, Rain said:

Earth's not the outcome. Eternity is. We know so little about that it would be impossible to judge the best outcome of eternity by the outcome of earth. Besides, what if outer darkness is the best outcome for some people? 

That all stems on agency. If we must have agency, and our doctrine says we must, then that has to allow the idea that even if God puts us in situations that should lead us to the best outcome then some will chose not to follow that path. And if its the case that God put us there for the best outcome then the best outcome for some people is outer darkness. 

I know that is not easy to accept especially when we think about our loved ones and how God is supposed to love us so much more than we can. Parents get just a taste of it when our children follow paths we would not have them on.

 

So God created someone just to send them to outer darkness? If God is omniscient, he already knows what the outcome will be not matter what situation he puts us into; he already knows that we will choose/not choose to follow a certain path, and thus he already knows from the time we are born (and then even in pre-mortal life in LDS doctrine) which kingdom we will inherit. So essentially he is creating persons with the absolute knowledge that their destiny will be outer darkness (if he is in fact omniscient).

 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Walden said:

So essentially he is creating persons with the absolute knowledge that their destiny will be outer darkness (if he is in fact omniscient).

 

Not destiny.  He is creating persons with the absolute knowledge that a few will choose to spend eternity in outer darkness.  

[Walden]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Not destiny.  He is creating persons with the absolute knowledge that a few will choose to spend eternity in outer darkness.  

But he created them that way, he created them knowing all along that they would choose that path to outer darkness

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Walden said:

But he created them that way, he created them knowing all along that they would choose that path to outer darkness

He didn't create them any specific way.  He created them with the ability to receive exaltation, just like everyone else.  They simply choose something different.  Knowing some one is going to choose something is not the same thing as being responsible for their choice.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

So God created someone just to send them to outer darkness? If God is omniscient, he already knows what the outcome will be not matter what situation he puts us into; he already knows that we will choose/not choose to follow a certain path, and thus he already knows from the time we are born (and then even in pre-mortal life in LDS doctrine) which kingdom we will inherit. So essentially he is creating persons with the absolute knowledge that their destiny will be outer darkness (if he is in fact omniscient).

 

 

We were intelligences before we were Spirits. I've never thought about it, but do we know if God created intelligences?

[changed]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Earth's not the outcome. Eternity is. We know so little about that it would be impossible to judge the best outcome of eternity by the outcome of earth. Besides, what if outer darkness is the best outcome for some people? 

That all stems on agency. If we must have agency, and our doctrine says we must, then that has to allow the idea that even if God puts us in situations that should lead us to the best outcome then some will chose not to follow that path. And if its the case that God put us there for the best outcome then the best outcome for some people is outer darkness. 

I know that is not easy to accept especially when we think about our loved ones and how God is supposed to love us so much more than we can. Parents get just a taste of it when our children follow paths we would not have them on.

 

 

I guess I'm just not convinced there is only "one path" up the mountain, or that the refinement process could not be more delicately completed...

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Walden said:

If you do not believe that God knows the future, then you cannot believe that God is omniscient. If God knows every hair on my head, every intent of my heart, every thought in my head (as an omniscient being would) then he must surely know how I will act and react in every situation before that situation occurs in real time/Earth time.

This is one of the issues that I have always had difficulty wrapping my head around....an omniscient God would know my life story before it even unfolds, and thus he would know what kingdom I will inherit from the moment I am born.

Do you think that God can be surprised? This idea goes against everything I have been taught of the Christian God, the Mormon God, and would mean that he is not in fact omniscient.

I think He is relatively omniscient, and perfectly so as far as we are concerned. Yes, He can be "surprised," as He was with the brother of Jared seeing His finger. He knew it was possible, but didn't expect it. I think we can develop faster and in different ways than the opportunities He lays out for us to achieve a marginal level of progress which propels us to higher levels. To me, being omniscient isn't so much knowing a singular path for the future in granular detail (though to us it may seem that way), but knowing how to respond to and prepare for the unexpected decisions of the less-than-omniscient beings to whom He gave agency, and whose paths are invited to merge into His.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Walden said:

But he created them that way, he created them knowing all along that they would choose that path to outer darkness

They always existed. He created for them an invitation to follow Him, and sometimes they accept it and then change their minds, and then repent and change their minds again.