Popular Post cinepro Posted October 25, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Is there any way to test if what I 'remember' now is an actual memory or an imposed one? Don't think so as there was nothing unusual to check. From what Elizabeth Loftus has said, there isn't a reliable way to distinguish false memories from true ones without outside evidence. Quote False memories are not easy to identify. Levels of emotional reaction do not affirmatively identify false memories, nor do brain imaging techniques, Loftus noted. Studies have found that the susceptibility of people to such memory distortions is the same regardless of the intelligence levels or superior memory capabilities of those involved. Beyond the significant impact of false memories in legal prosecutions, Loftus said, they also raise serious ethical questions for society. “We have shown that not only can you distort people’s memories through the details of events they actually experienced but you can go further, you can make people believe and remember entire events that did not happen,” said Loftus, adding later, “It does raise ethical dilemmas for society: when should we use this mind technology, if ever, or should we think of banning its use?” Her take-home message echoed the tenets of the scientific method: “Just because someone tells you something and they say it with a lot of confidence and a lot of detail and a lot of emotion, it does not mean that it actually happened,” she said. “You need independent corroboration to know if you are dealing with a genuine memory or one that is the product of some other process.” https://www.aaas.org/news/science-seeks-understand-why-everybody-lies Edited October 25, 2018 by cinepro 5
pogi Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, cinepro said: From what Elizabeth Loftus has said, there isn't a reliable way to distinguish false memories from true ones without outside evidence. That is kind of a scary thought... Personally, I would be content to have any memories. I am too young to hardly remember anything!
cinepro Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) The rabbit hole on the this whole "false memory" thing is insane. Just when I think it can't get any crazier, I find something that shocks me. Like this case from Washington. In 1988, a police office named Paul Ingram in Olympia, Washington, was accused by his daughters of engaging in Satanic Ritual Abuse. And he believed them even though he couldn't remember it! Quote At the time of the accusations, Ingram's older daughter, Ericka, was 21 years of age; her sister, Julie, was 18. Ericka had made an accusation which had arisen from discussions at a church camp. She had accused a man of attempted rape in 1983, but the police investigation revealed that he had only given Ericka a ride and had put his hand on her knee. In 1988, she attended a Pentecostal youth retreat for teenage women called Heart to Heart. A woman with prophetic and discernment powers told her that she had been sexually abused by her father. Ericka had no memories of such abuse, but went into counseling with a therapist who used Recovered Memory Therapyto attempt to restore abuse memories that had been repressed. She was able to recover memories of Satanic Ritual Abuse involving her father which started when she was about 5 and continued until one year previously. Later she remembered that the abuse continued until just before she left home. Edited October 25, 2018 by cinepro 3
cinepro Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) It won't let me edit the above post, so you can read the rest of the crazy story here... http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_ingra.htm Edited October 25, 2018 by cinepro 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: From what Elizabeth Loftus has said, there isn't a reliable way to distinguish false memories from true ones without outside evidence. A couple of months ago, I dropped my mobile phone, and the glass back shattered. It was all still intact, but there were cracks running through it everywhere. I felt really bad as I had just bought it in February this year, and it was the first smartphone I'd ever bought. (In the past, I'd just used other people's hand-me-downs.) I woke up one morning and felt the need to look over the damage to see if it was as bad as I remembered. (I could clearly see all the shattered glass in my mind, right down to certain cracks.) So I reached under my bed, where it was charging, picked up the phone, and turned it over. No cracks. My current mobile phone has a metal back. My previous phone had a glass back, and it had a single hairline crack in it, hardly noticeable at all. To this day, I have no idea where this 'memory' came from. I think I might have dreamt the whole thing, but I'm honestly not sure. The only way I can establish that my clear and rather traumatic experience didn't happen is the actual evidence of the phone. 3
bluebell Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 39 minutes ago, cinepro said: It won't let me edit the above post, so you can read the rest of the crazy story here... http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_ingra.htm That poor man. He actually sounds like a really good father for pleading guilty rather than do what he believed would harm his daughters. 4
katherine the great Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: A couple of months ago, I dropped my mobile phone, and the glass back shattered. It was all still intact, but there were cracks running through it everywhere. I felt really bad as I had just bought it in February this year, and it was the first smartphone I'd ever bought. (In the past, I'd just used other people's hand-me-downs.) I woke up one morning and felt the need to look over the damage to see if it was as bad as I remembered. (I could clearly see all the shattered glass in my mind, right down to certain cracks.) So I reached under my bed, where it was charging, picked up the phone, and turned it over. No cracks. My current mobile phone has a metal back. My previous phone had a glass back, and it had a single hairline crack in it, hardly noticeable at all. To this day, I have no idea where this 'memory' came from. I think I might have dreamt the whole thing, but I'm honestly not sure. The only way I can establish that my clear and rather traumatic experience didn't happen is the actual evidence of the phone. Maybe you somehow tapped into my experience. Mine was really and truly shattered to the bone.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, cinepro said: In 1988, a police office named Paul Ingram in Olympia, Washington, was accused by his daughters of engaging in Satanic Ritual Abuse. And he believed them even though he couldn't remember it! Is this a good place to point out that right before his disciplinary council, Sam Young posted the shocking story (complete with 'trigger warning') of a woman he knows? One very small excerpt provides a sense of the entire narrative: Quote This kind of abuse happened through my whole childhood and included group rapes, group ritualistic torture and making of snuff films, and included at least one child being killed, in which I was forced to participate and then partake in forms of cannabalism that were are for the purpose of producing these films and selling them on a dark black market. Of course, this was all organised by a clandestine network of senior Church leaders and family members (often the same people) who used the Church to cover everything up. The author concludes: 'Sam is the first bishop I have felt heard me and appreciated me, and wasn’t afraid of me knowing any part of my history'. To which Mr Young added: Quote I’ll gladly exchange my membership to prevent this kind of inhuman behavior to continue. Where is Jesus Christ? Is there any General Authority who really believes in Christ’s teachings? They condone the crap that allows this to happen. Edited October 26, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 3
cinepro Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Is this a good place to point out that right before his disciplinary council, Sam Young posted the shocking story (complete with 'trigger warning') of a woman he knows? One very small excerpt provides a sense of the entire narrative: Of course, this was all organised by a clandestine network of senior Church leaders and family members (often the same people) who used the Church to cover everything up. The author concludes: 'Sam is the first bishop I have felt heard me and appreciated me, and wasn’t afraid of me knowing any part of my history'. To which Mr Young added: I found her story. It's obvious she needs help, but it sounds like she found the wrong therapist. This part is the key, since these theories simply aren't true: Quote The only way a child can survive such horror, is too split or dissociate from the experience. For those of us with complex trauma of this kind, we survive by compartmentalizing this abuse so that we can survive, and for many years may have only fragments or complete amnesia until we become older and are safe enough to heal. Most of my childhood memories were not existent or fragmented in my conscious awareness for many years, but the pain and flashbacks that were confusing lead to self-destructive behavior when I was older. As a Church leader, I can't imagine how difficult it is to deal with these kinds of situations. 4
cinepro Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) And regarding false confessions ,the story of Ingram in Washington is especially interesting: Quote Psychologist Richard Ofshe claimed that Ingram, because of his long-standing and routine experiences in his church, was inadvertently hypnotized by authority figures who conducted his interrogation, although no mental health professionals were present, and that the confessions were the result of false memories being implanted with suggestion.[13] Ofshe tested this hypothesis by telling Ingram that a son and daughter had accused him of forcing them to commit incest with each other. Interrogating officers had previously accused Ingram of this, but he denied it, and also denied Ofshe's accusation. Ofshe instructed Ingram to pray on the idea, and later Ingram produced a full, detailed written confession. Questioning the daughter who was supposed to have been involved, despite many other accusations against her father, she denied that such an incident had ever occurred. Upon being told that no such accusation had been made by either his son or daughter, Ingram refused to believe the incident wasn't real, maintaining it's just as real to me as anything else".[14] Ofshe was thus convinced that Ingram's confessions were solely the result of extensive interrogation sessions and questions being applied to an unusually suggestible individual. He provided a report on his theory, but the prosecution initially refused to supply it to the defense, only doing so after being forced by the judge.[15] Ofshe later reported the incident in a scientific journal.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurston_County_ritual_abuse_case Edited October 26, 2018 by cinepro 3
Abulafia Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 12 hours ago, katherine the great said: The possibilities are endless. He may have been passing the buck. He may have been the type of person who is susceptible to suggestion (easily hypnotized), or #4 can be explained by #1. I don't know the man and he may or may not have abused all these children but if he did, he was a very messed up person and throwing other people under the bus with him would not surprise me at all. I am interested in the other group of people who made accusations against him. (the people from the Mt Olympus neighborhood). Were they completely untouched by Barbara Snow or by any information out there at the time? If so, I would consider that good evidence that he was a predator. I sincerely believe from the evidence available, that Bill C was a messed up paedophile, who predated upon the children of Mother 1 and later on the step children and children of Mother 2. I am also interested in the Mt. Olympus accusations. But, even without anyone from that neighbourhood coming forward, the corroborating evidence against Bill is quite damning. What an awful, awful mess. One thing that interested and surprised me from the Sunstone Presentation I linked to, highlighted by Robey (Utah State Prison Residential Program for Sex Offenders) was that with the prison offenders population he worked with, where the offenders admitted to their crimes, many expressed shock that they would ever divorce, visit a prostitute or have an affair, since that was immoral. Somehow they ignored the depravity in sexually abusing their own or other kids. Crazy.
Calm Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Abulafia said: I sincerely believe from the evidence available, that Bill C was a messed up paedophile, who predated upon the children of Mother 1 and later on the step children and children of Mother 2. I am also interested in the Mt. Olympus accusations. But, even without anyone from that neighbourhood coming forward, the corroborating evidence against Bill is quite damning. What an awful, awful mess. One thing that interested and surprised me from the Sunstone Presentation I linked to, highlighted by Robey (Utah State Prison Residential Program for Sex Offenders) was that with the prison offenders population he worked with, where the offenders admitted to their crimes, many expressed shock that they would ever divorce, visit a prostitute or have an affair, since that was immoral. Somehow they ignored the depravity in sexually abusing their own or other kids. Crazy. Why would you assume he was telling the truth about anyone else if you think he is such a monster? Do you believe he remembered what he did? Edited October 26, 2018 by Calm 1
Abulafia Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: Why would you assume he was telling the truth about anyone else if you think he is such a monster? Do you believe he remembered what he did? I never said he was a monster, but he did do terrible, monstrous things. I think we can all agree on that.
kllindley Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 7 hours ago, cinepro said: It's obvious she needs help, but it sounds like she found the wrong therapist. This part is the key, since these theories simply aren't true: Quote The only way a child can survive such horror, is too split or dissociate from the experience. For those of us with complex trauma of this kind, we survive by compartmentalizing this abuse so that we can survive, and for many years may have only fragments or complete amnesia until we become older and are safe enough to heal. Most of my childhood memories were not existent or fragmented in my conscious awareness for many years, but the pain and flashbacks that were confusing lead to self-destructive behavior when I was older. As a Church leader, I can't imagine how difficult it is to deal with these kinds of situations. I agree that Church leaders are facing a Herculean task in helping with these situations, even when working with competent professionals. I will say that I'm curious about what part of the quote you shared you would consider untrue.
cinepro Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, kllindley said: I agree that Church leaders are facing a Herculean task in helping with these situations, even when working with competent professionals. I will say that I'm curious about what part of the quote you shared you would consider untrue. The idea that sustained trauma of that magnitude would be totally "forgotten", only to be recovered years later. We don't remember every second of every day; we all have huge gaps of our lives that we just don't remember because that's how our memory works. All it takes is an imaginative patient with some sort of problem (depression, eating disorder etc.) and a willing therapist to start filling in the gaps. This woman is describing massive, intense abuse that went on for years. It went on for hours and hours each week, and occurred in different cities under the influence of different people. Again, here is what she is claiming: Quote This kind of abuse happened through my whole childhood and included group rapes, group ritualistic torture and making of snuff films, and included at least on child being killed, in which I was forced to participate and then partake in forms of cannibalism that were are for the purpose of producing these films and selling them on a dark black market. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I turned 11 years old, my parents moved us again to a different city, under the influence of my grandfather choosing the house for us. It happened to be next door to two polygamist families who were involved in this ring, and a bishop who was called to be the Stake President and was involved in my abuse. They rely on the torture and use of drug and the extreme of the abuse splitting a mind and intentionally push a victim to the point of Dissociation, and also administer drugs that induce forgetfulness after the abuse episode. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ When I was 15 I did start having a lot of flashbacks that made me feel crazy, I attempted suicide a few times, and developed a severe eating disorder. Because I started talking I was shut up by being taken to a therapist who was a part of this group, and for 16 months he drugged me, hypnotized me, raped me, and trafficked me by prostituting me from his office and producing pornography, three days per week, for 4-6 hours at a time, and used various methods of mind control to mess up my sense of reality and what was real. By the end, at the age of 17, he convinced me to leave my home to go live with his daughter in an apartment in a small, isolated college town away from anyone I knew. It ended up being a set up, and I was used the whole time, drugged, and raped by multiple men for a period of 4 months. Oh, and yes, there was a bishopric member of the local singles ward who was trafficking me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ When I finally barely escaped with my life, I was very fragmented, and at that time could not access many of my memories and lost awareness of much of any of that time period until several years later. I think we can all agree that that woman needs serious help. But she is making horrific accusations against several people, and I would be interested in having someone actually investigate her claims if I wasn't pretty sure of how that investigation would turn out. Edited October 26, 2018 by cinepro 4
kllindley Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: The idea that sustained trauma of that magnitude would be totally "forgotten", only to be recovered years later. We don't remember ever second of every day; we all have huge gaps of our lives that we just don't remember because that's how our memory works. All it takes is an imaginative patient with some sort of problem (depression, eating disorder etc.) and a willing therapist to start filling in the gaps. This woman is describing massive, intense abuse that went on for years. It went on for hours and hours each week, and occurred in different cities under the influence of different people. Again, here is what she is claiming: I think we can all agree that that woman needs serious help. But she is making horrific accusations against several people, and I would be interested in having someone actually investigate her claims if I wasn't pretty sure of how that investigation would turn out. Okay. I totally agree. I thought you were stating that there is never dissociation during trauma or repressed memories of traumatic events. It definitely does happen in extreme situations. But in those cases there is not some miracle process that allows these memories to be accurately recovered like an accidentally deleted file. Also, Flashbacks from trauma do impact functioning and can lead to confusion and self-destructive behavior. 3
cinepro Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 On 10/25/2018 at 2:16 PM, pogi said: Personally, I would be content to have any memories. I am too young to hardly remember anything! If you saw the right therapist, you might be amazed at what you could remember. 4
cinepro Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) On 10/24/2018 at 9:23 PM, Abulafia said: Also..Loftus conclusions are controversial because getting lost in a supermarket is nothing like the deep trauma associated with child abuse. This has been studied as well. You'll never guess what they found: Reliability and Credibility of Young Children's Reports: From Research to Policy and Practice Interestingly, and most applicable to this case: Quote One of the motivations for repeating interviews, especially with young children, is to provide them with an opportunity to remember important details that they had not originally reported in the first interview. We found that repeated interviewing resulted in reports of new details (called reminiscences), but more reminiscences were produced for false than for true events. It is in fact possible that high rates of reminiscing may signify unreliable reporting, and this may be especially so when the reminiscences are produced after some lengthy delay. For example, Salmon and Pipe (1997) exposed children to a quasi-medical examination and then interviewed them soon after and one year later. They found that children's reminiscences for an event that had been experienced a year previously were largely inaccurate. More research on this important topic is needed before we can confidently state what types and rates of reminiscences are symptomatic of false accounts. Edited October 30, 2018 by cinepro 3
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, cinepro said: If you saw the right therapist, you might be amazed at what you could remember. A few days later: 2
Abulafia Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 15 hours ago, cinepro said: This has been studied as well. You'll never guess what they found: Reliability and Credibility of Young Children's Reports: From Research to Policy and Practice Interestingly, and most applicable to this case: And again, this area is horrendously difficult to study and analyse because the sexual abuse of a minor is a uniquely horrific act. A medical exam wouldn't cut it, Cinepro. And if that medical exam was designed to be traumatic or painful then the research itself would be unethical. It's a messy, messy area.
Tacenda Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 Sometimes you need to look at it this way, people that you would never think could do such a thing, do. In the following article, this man looks like a great guy, has a great family, church man, and owns a funeral home, has a lot of friends too. https://www.ksl.com/article/46417379/utah-funeral-home-owner-charged-with-sex-crimes-attorney-faces-obstruction-charge
Popular Post cinepro Posted October 31, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Abulafia said: And again, this area is horrendously difficult to study and analyse because the sexual abuse of a minor is a uniquely horrific act. A medical exam wouldn't cut it, Cinepro. And if that medical exam was designed to be traumatic or painful then the research itself would be unethical. It's a messy, messy area. I disagree. There is every indication that the principles found in these studies of memory also hold in situations where abuse is being reported. And there is tons of evidence that all the reports of ritual satanic abuse are a result of contamination by therapists and law enforcement in the interview and investigation process (as well as a total lack of any other supporting evidence). You're creating an exception when none is needed. This is the problem that has been going on since the 1980s. In order to sustain these false accusations, exceptions must be made to the way we investigate and prosecute crimes. We make these exceptions "for the children" and because "this is different." But it's not different. It's only that when we make these exceptions, we allow a river of bull crap to flood in and suddenly we think the local daycare is flying kids up in hot air balloons in order to molest them. Edited October 31, 2018 by cinepro 5
Abulafia Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 But Cinepro. Again. Each account must be judged on its own merits and it's own failings. Not all accounts of abuse of minors include the impossible or highly improbable. When they do and the stories seem so illogical, there may be a variety of reasons playing into it. You can't fairly, imho, hold up your hands and say..no..impossible...categorically...sexual abuse of minors using props...threats..and more than one person...does not exist. It does. Sadly. For me, the great sadness of the moral panic, is that it could have obscured the reality of sexual abuse for some children. As I have also stated elsewhere, if you want to give that power over memory to therapists then you also need to give that power to criminals. Abusers themselves could impact a child's memory so much that they couldn't tell fantasy from reality. This section on the controversial nature of this area was helpful to me. "Finally, and most controversially, Lipian and his colleagues (2004) suggest that some child- hood fabrications are pseudomemories or unintentional cognitive distortions. The most interesting scenario by which children might create false memories (and perhaps most common) is that they are inadvertently led to do so by parents and professionals. Parents and professionals, by asking leading questions or making subtle suggestions, may intentionally or unintentionally contribute to the distortion of children’s memories. Research on children suggests that memory is related to both language skills and the ability to order and interpret events, skills that are not usually well developed in young children (Hewitt, 1998). Some researchers have examined the suggestibility of children by exposing them to differ- ent kinds of events and then asking the children about those events. It is clear from this research that several factors can contaminate the memories of young children (Ceci & Bruck, 1998; Lyon, 1999; Saywitz, Goodman, & Lyon, 2002). Loftus and Ketcham (1991), for example, describe research in which preschool and kindergarten children were shown 1-minute films and subse- quently interviewed about what they saw. The children who were asked leading questions such as “Did you see a boat?” and “Didn’t you see a bear?” responded affirmatively that they had seen these objects in the films. Because there was neither a boat nor a bear in the films, the researchers con- cluded that they were able to alter the children’s responses, or possibly even create memories in the children, simply by asking leading questions. In another study with children, Ceci (1995) managed to convince 58% of a sample of preschoolers that they once had to go to the hospital to get a mousetrap off of their finger. Many of the fabricated memories included detailed information that had not been suggested by the researchers.It is difficult to determine how well such results generalize to the questions surrounding false allegations, because the circumstances in experimental situations are different from those sur- rounding actual events of maltreatment. One factor that distinguishes experimental situations from actual child maltreatment situations is that the latter are generally traumatic for the child. Several studies that have examined memories for stressful events among both adults and children suggest that individuals generally retain core features of stressful events, although they may not retain some less significant details (e.g., Bidrose & Goodman, 2000; Christiansson, 1992; Goodman, Hirschman, Hepps, & Rudy, 1991). In addition, there appear to be significant differ- ences among individuals in the ways they remember stressful events (Saywitz et al., 2002). As I have stated before, I am certain these children ( in the suit) were being sexually abused. I am pretty certain that the abuse was being committed by the perpetrator. As for the Miles and the babysitters involvement. I just don't know. Jane Doe 1, Jane Doe 5, and the Perpetrators evidence is controversial as has been debated. I hope their memories are not based in reality. I don't want it to be true. But sifting out reality from fantasy is not easy, and if other alleged participants come forward, this will muddy the water further. The children from Marion Smith's other daughter aren't in this suit, and Jane Doe 5 was willing to make a witness statement but doesn't want to be part of the suit. The Miles children categorically deny the events happened, but at least one other family's children seem to have been involved and are not coming forward. See: Child Maltreatment: An Introduction By Cindy L. Miller-Perrin, Robin D. Perrin chapter 9. Which can be found online.
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 4:15 AM, Abulafia said: I sincerely believe from the evidence available, that Bill C was a messed up paedophile, who predated upon the children of Mother 1 and later on the step children and children of Mother 2. I am also interested in the Mt. Olympus accusations. But, even without anyone from that neighbourhood coming forward, the corroborating evidence against Bill is quite damning. What an awful, awful mess. One thing that interested and surprised me from the Sunstone Presentation I linked to, highlighted by Robey (Utah State Prison Residential Program for Sex Offenders) was that with the prison offenders population he worked with, where the offenders admitted to their crimes, many expressed shock that they would ever divorce, visit a prostitute or have an affair, since that was immoral. Somehow they ignored the depravity in sexually abusing their own or other kids. Crazy. People compartmentalize evil to a shocking degree. Rapists will confess to all the actions that qualify as rape but not rape itself because that is bad and will deny it is rape after they admit to actions that literally are rape, I think the worst example I know of was a lady who was prostituting her toddler out to pedophiles for money. The toddler was riddled with STDs and very sick and injured when they finally caught her. When CPS showed up to take the kid away (and the police to arrest her) she was screaming at them to make sure the child did not go to a gay couple because she was a “God fearing woman and her child would not go to sinners”. The disconnect there is insane.
Abulafia Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: People compartmentalize evil to a shocking degree. Rapists will confess to all the actions that qualify as rape but not rape itself because that is bad and will deny it is rape after they admit to actions that literally are rape, I think the worst example I know of was a lady who was prostituting her toddler out to pedophiles for money. The toddler was riddled with STDs and very sick and injured when they finally caught her. When CPS showed up to take the kid away (and the police to arrest her) she was screaming at them to make sure the child did not go to a gay couple because she was a “God fearing woman and her child would not go to sinners”. The disconnect there is insane. True.
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