Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[kllindley]

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Evidence please. Lots of accusations here. I assume you are a social worker/therapist/expert in Child abuse?

You've been given a lot of evidence that these interview practices are not considered therapeutic and are discouraged by every professional body in the US.  They have been shown to cause false accusations and severe emotional distress to alleged victims.  Did you even read that evidence?  Even if they were abused by their father, the fact that they currently believe that they were abused by dozens of people, when that is demonstrably exceptionally unlikely, means that Snow/Smith caused long term emotional damage by preventing them from healing from the actual abuse that occurred.  

It is an ethical violation not to document treatment sessions. 

It is a violation for Ms. Smith to be doing any interviewing of a son-in-law or to have any involvement at all in her grandchildren's treatment. 

How did mother 1 find out that the babysitter had been accused or implicated?  By police?  Or through a violation of confidentiality on the parts of Snow/Smith's clinic?  

I am trained to respond to and treat child abuse. This kind of behavior would cause any therapist today to lose his'her license for malpractice.  

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification
of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Unless details are provided, hard to tell why he was so convinced. For all we know he relied primarily on what the kids told him or their psychological reaction to being examined. 

30 years ago they might not have been aware (research not done yet) that some variation of the hymen missing in small children is normal if I am interpreting the second article I linked to above correctly. So it would be important to know what he saw as evidence. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

Just now, kllindley said:

You've been given a lot of evidence that these interview practices are not considered therapeutic and are discouraged by every professional body in the US.  They have been shown to cause false accusations and severe emotional distress to alleged victims.  Did you even read that evidence?  Even if they were abused by their father, the fact that they currently believe that they were abused by dozens of people, when that is demonstrably exceptionally unlikely, means that Snow/Smith caused long term emotional damage by preventing them from healing from the actual abuse that occurred.  

It is an ethical violation not to document treatment sessions. 

It is a violation for Ms. Smith to be doing any interviewing of a son-in-law or to have any involvement at all in her grandchildren's treatment. 

How did mother 1 find out that the babysitter had been accused or implicated?  By police?  Or through a violation of confidentiality on the parts of Snow/Smith's clinic?  

I am trained to respond to and treat child abuse. This kind of behavior would cause any therapist today to lose his'her license for malpractice.  

Those are some interesting points. I appreciate the clarifications of current practices. Were you working in the 1980s when Whitehead, Tyler, Snow and others were practicing? 

 

 

[kllindley]

9 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification
of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

This is not Dr. Palmer's report.  It is what Marion Smith claims was in the report.  

[Abulafia]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unless details are provided, hard to tell why he was so convinced. For all we know he relied primarily on what the kids told him or their psychological reaction to being examined. 

They were examined medically,  according to Marion Smith. 

[Abulafia]

Just now, kllindley said:

This is not Dr. Palmer's report.  It is what Marion Smith claims was in the report.  

Right. And does that report still exist?

[Judd]

12 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, I've been working on the timeline.

The Dr was named and I assume, if still alive, could be recalled.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xA2b4pwWuHWc2G2cXLVlJb8vMfbBnuFYGP2TzDzN1TI/edit?usp=sharing

 

Recalled to provide the specifics of a case/evaluation? I struggle recalling any meaningful detail about patients I saw even a week, or few days, prior.

[Abulafia]

2 minutes ago, Judd said:

Recalled to provide the specifics of a case/evaluation? I struggle recalling any meaningful detail about patients I saw even a week, or few days, prior.

There would be a written report surely? 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

They were examined medically,  according to Marion Smith. 

And for all we know that amounted to looking down their throats with a tongue depressor  and nothing else. (Though more likely to include more obviously)

It means nothing to say “medically examined” unless what was examined and what standards were those findings compared to is also shared  

I was medically examined for 20 plus years and misdiagnosed each and every time (dozens probably) until one doctor thought it wise to give me a sleep study since my complaint was fatigue, not depression.  So I don’t see “medically examined” as inherently meaning both thoroughly and correctly examined.

 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

There would be a written report surely? 

Hopefully. But until such details are shared, appealing to a secondhand report of vague medical findings is not impressive in my view. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm

[kllindley]

12 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Those are some interesting points. I appreciate the clarifications of current practices. Were you working in the 1980s when Whitehead, Tyler, Snow and others were practicing? 

 

 

No.  Those practices were told to us as horror stories in the training.  The equivalent of lobotomizing everyone who showed any mental illness, trepanation,  bleeding people, or using leeches.  

[Abulafia]

31 minutes ago, kllindley said:

No.  Those practices were told to us as horror stories in the training.  The equivalent of lobotomizing everyone who showed any mental illness, trepanation,  bleeding people, or using leeches.  

From what I have read, people learned from their mistakes. Snow is still practising today. Whitehead is still around.  It would be great if they were available for comment.  Your disdain equals their professional experience. I'd love to hear from them.

[Abulafia]

"Even if they were abused by their father, the fact that they currently believe that they were abused by dozens of people, when that is demonstrably exceptionally unlikely, means that Snow/Smith caused long term emotional damage by preventing them from healing from the actual abuse that occurred"

 

Can you point out why their abuse by the baby sitters, def1, def2, and the perpetrator is demonstrably and exceptionally unlikely?  

[cinepro]

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Can you point out why their abuse by the baby sitters, def1, def2, and the perpetrator is demonstrably and exceptionally unlikely?  

Because other than Bill Carstensen, the only evidence for it was the claims of children after they had been exposed to therapists that were skilled at getting kids to say stuff like that (and then unequivocally believing it, and then getting other kids to say more stuff).

However horrible it was for the Miles to be accused, and even for this current dredge to be back in the news, we can only be thankful that they didn't get thrown in jail.  It would have been very possible for us to be talking about this case with it ending with the Miles in jail for decades.  I guess that's a tender mercy.

 

Abulafia, I'm not sure if you missed my previous post, but can you please review it and let me know if you see any red flags, and if so, what they are?

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71089-lawsuit-re-sex-abuse-allegations-against-daughter-of-pres-nelson-and-her-husband/?do=findComment&comment=1209862960

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

Cinepro, again, according to the witness statements, Jane Doe 1 revealed to Snow that the teenage babysitters had abused them. Jane Doe 1 revealed to her Mother the alleged abuse of the Miles, and the alleged abuse of her father. Are you also accusing Mother 1 of lying? 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Cinepro, again, according to the witness statements, Jane Doe 1 revealed to Snow that the teenage babysitters had abused them. Jane Doe 1 revealed to her Mother the alleged abuse of the Miles, and the alleged abuse of her father. Are you also accusing Mother 1 of lying? 

The problem is accusations didn't occur in isolation of each other, but built on each other.  When therapists as demonstrated here push kids to come up with more abusers, they will.  When kids are encouraged to come up with fantastical examples of abuse, they will.  When they will (immediately or later) probably depends on the kid and how much they want to get out of the Session or feel comfortable or have parents or others outside of therapy fishing for info in order to be reassured.

Even if the kids came up with the accusations later on, the ideas can be first planted in their heads by the therapist.  Then it gets completed and verbalized at a later time, which may mean when they say it to someone else besides the therapist.

And it doesn't have to be lying, but it can still be inaccurate.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Cinepro, again, according to the witness statements, Jane Doe 1 revealed to Snow that the teenage babysitters had abused them. Jane Doe 1 revealed to her Mother the alleged abuse of the Miles, and the alleged abuse of her father. Are you also accusing Mother 1 of lying? 

[Abulafia]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

The problem is accusations didn't occur in isolation of each other, but built on each other.  When therapists as demonstrated here push kids to come up with more abusers, they will.  When kids are encouraged to come up with fantastical examples of abuse, they will.

Even if the kids came up with the accusations later on, the ideas can be first planted in their heads by the therapist.  Then it gets completed and verbalized at a later time, which may mean when they say it to someone else besides the therapist.

Are you saying that Barbara Snow first suggested the names of the Miles and the Perpetrator? Bullock seemed to be the end of the trail to find an adult abuser. 

 

From the timeline

 

1985 July - Arden Brett Bullock's neighbour (Bountiful) took her 4 year old boy to Barbara Snow on recommendation of Marion Smith at ISAT because she was worried about inappropriate sexual comments to two other 4 year olds. On 2nd meeting it emerges that boys have been allegedly sexually abused by 2 eight year olds, one of whom was Brett Bullock's son. [ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p5]

1985 December - boys in Brett Bullock’s case referred to Dr Ann Tyler [Psychologist and Executive Director of the Family Support Centre] Her assessment is that all 4 boys were likely sexually abused.

1986 January - Janice, a baby tender used by both of Marion Smith's daughters was implicated by a child victim in the Bullock case.

[Abulafia]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Yeah. That really goes both ways.  You do realise that?

[Judd]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

There would be a written report surely? 

No. Unless it was obtained during the initial investigation, the facility would no longer have it. This is before electronic medical records and they don’t keep physical records that long. In any case, if I understand correctly, this was done in an emergency department. In our current world of fear of litigation pushing excessive documentation, ER notes remain amongst the most worthless documents in all of healthcare. I couldn’t imagine how scant they’d be in the 80s, assuming you could decipher the chicken scratch. Calling a physician to recall the details, even with documentation, would be completely unreliable.

[Calm]

Quote

Are you saying Barbara Snow...etc.

No, I am saying Snow and/or Smith introduced the idea that telling names was a good thing to the kids and likely to the mother as well.  The kids were rewarded by being told how brave they were, etc. every time they came up with a new abuse or person involved (understandably so).  That kind of reinforcement leads to greater numbers of similar reports.  That doesn't mean the kids were lying.  They may have had no real clue until later about the meaning of what they were saying, they may have understood it to mean something else or it was meaningless to them save that they figured out the adults around them wanted them to say such things (they would have assumed this based on the rewards when they said it).

What names the kids came up with might have been based on their familiarity with the names, the connection with shared babysitters, someone suggesting their names...possibly if involved in or aware of previous investigations, parents or therapists or others might have simply gone down a list or something else or more likely a combination.  Since very little of actual discussion with the kids is documented, just some recollections (that may be accurate or not that would have taken less than an half an hour total in all probability to list vocally) while we know the kids talked with adults (and likely their siblings and other kids) endless hours just from Smith's descriptions, the vast majority of what the kids said or were told is undocumented.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

1 minute ago, Judd said:

No. Unless it was obtained during the initial investigation, the facility would no longer have it. This is before electronic medical records and they don’t keep physical records that long. In any case, if I understand correctly, this was done in an emergency department. In our current world of fear of litigation pushing excessive documentation, ER notes remain amongst the most worthless documents in all of healthcare. I couldn’t imagine how scant they’d be in the 80s, assuming you could decipher the chicken scratch. Calling a physician to recall the details, even with documentation, would be completely unreliable.

Interesting. Here in the UK, medical records are kept as sacrosanct. My husband asked for all his and for a photocopy charge, got them. 

Hospitals here also send copies to the local GPs.

[Abulafia]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I am saying she introduced the idea that telling names was a good thing to the kids.  What names the kids came up with might have been based on their familiarity with the names, the connection with shared babysitters, someone suggesting their names...possibly if involved in or aware of previous investigations, parents or therapists or others might have simply gone down a list or something else or more likely a combination.  Since very little of actual discussion with the kids is documented, just some recollections that may be accurate to not that would have taken less than an half an hour totalmin all probability to detail while we know the kids talked with adults (and likely their siblings and other kids) endless hours just from Smith's descriptions. 

Calm, okay. I understand that. In the context of sexual abuse telling names is a good thing. False accusations are not. Do you think Bill was innocent?

[Judd]

7 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Interesting. Here in the UK, medical records are kept as sacrosanct. My husband asked for all his and for a photocopy charge, got them. 

Hospitals here also send copies to the local GPs.

That’s the same here, but we’re talking about the 1980s and we’re talking about paper charts.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, okay. I understand that. In the context of sexual abuse telling names is a good thing. False accusations are not. Do you think Bill was innocent?

I don't really know with the first kids, with the second marriage it appears medical information is more detailed and the accusations narrowed to him.  I think it likely, but I don't rule out the possibility he was innocent.

Quote

the context of sexual abuse telling names is a good thing. False accusations are not.

This is one of the major problems with dealing with potential victims, one wants to raise comfort levels and positive feelings about being open, but not encourage inaccurate comments or lead victims and witnesses.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm