Abulafia Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 41 minutes ago, Judd said: That’s the same here, but we’re talking about the 1980s and we’re talking about paper charts. My husband got them all the way back to infancy, so we are talking 60s. Some of the comments were interesting!
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) When we moved to Canada, the doctors weren't interested in making the effort to get records from the States and when we moved back, the States' doctors weren't interested either....we even had paper copies by then, but they just asked for us to tell them as they said they wouldn't take anything as far as tests not directly from another doctor (I guess forgery is a possibility). Back before then the doctors wouldn't even give us copies. I think traditions and local laws and how much you have moved around makes a difference. Even between states, they just blew stuff off...probably wouldn't these days since all of us have more serious issues rather than the usual minor stuff of youth (except for my weird disorder that most doctors probably thought was psychosomatic and therefore ignored after the first prescription didn't work). Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm 1
kllindley Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Abulafia said: My husband got them all the way back to infancy, so we are talking 60s. Some of the comments were interesting! But you're talking about a single healthcare system protected from malpractice torts. 1
kllindley Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Abulafia said: "Even if they were abused by their father, the fact that they currently believe that they were abused by dozens of people, when that is demonstrably exceptionally unlikely, means that Snow/Smith caused long term emotional damage by preventing them from healing from the actual abuse that occurred" Can you point out why their abuse by the baby sitters, def1, def2, and the perpetrator is demonstrably and exceptionally unlikely? Did you miss the entire discussion of why these methods are notorious for creating false allegations and fabricated claims of abuse? Or ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------?
Popular Post cinepro Posted October 17, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Abulafia said: Cinepro, again, according to the witness statements, Jane Doe 1 revealed to Snow that the teenage babysitters had abused them. Jane Doe 1 revealed to her Mother the alleged abuse of the Miles, and the alleged abuse of her father. Are you also accusing Mother 1 of lying? Again, here is how Marion (the grandmother) described what happened. If I understand correctly, Tricia and Susan are "Jane Doe 1" and "Jane Doe 2", right? Quote Our daughter Eileen and her husband Bill Carstensen were told by me about the allegations regarding Janice. Bill insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow. He told Barbara, “Ask Tricia (then age five). She’ll tell.” Barbara found no problems with Susan (Eileen’s oldest child, recently turned eight) or Tricia. Susan had completed psychological tests with a school psychologist two months earlier in connection with consideration of skipping a school grade. The psychologist found Susan to be, “a very healthy child with no significant problems.” Barbara told Eileen the kids seemed fine, but on hearing more about the baby tender, she re-interviewed the children for another two hours. Susan finally volunteered, “Sometimes when we’re asleep Janice comes in and puts crayons up us.” After many appointments, the children had revealed that Janice sometimes brought two teen-age boys to join in her sex play with them. They told of terrible acts. After about two months of therapy, we had a “hero’s” party for our grandchildren. (Emphasis added) This is the point where, if this were a football game, the referee would throw a flag in the air and say "Foul on the play!" Do you want to know how many appointments the kids had with Snow? As many as it took. Edited October 17, 2018 by cinepro 5
cinepro Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Abulafia said: Do you think Bill was innocent? As I've said before, I'm much more inclined to think Bill was guilty, but the case against him keeps getting weaker and weaker. The weirdest thing for me is this moment, as described by Marion Smith: Quote A few months later in January of 1986, Janice, a baby tender used by both our daughters, was implicated by a child victim in the Bullock case. Our daughter Eileen and her husband Bill Carstensen were told by me about the allegations regarding Janice. Bill insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow. He told Barbara, “Ask Tricia (then age five). She’ll tell.” (Emphasis added) I can't understand why someone who is abusing his kids would want them to be interviewed about whether or not they are being molested. That just seems a little counter-intuitive. 2
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: As I've said before, I'm much more inclined to think Bill was guilty, but the case against him keeps getting weaker and weaker. The weirdest thing for me is this moment, as described by Marion Smith: I can't understand why someone who is abusing his kids would want them to be interviewed about whether or not they are being molested. That just seems a little counter-intuitive. And iirc even after they were accusing him, he was encouraging them to dig deeper to find out the truth. 1
Abulafia Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, kllindley said: Did you miss the entire discussion of why these methods are notorious for creating false allegations and fabricated claims of abuse? Or ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------? No. I really didn't. And I would appreciate it if you cut the patronising and sarcastic tone. In general terms I have acknowledged elsewhere that mistakes, non malicious mistakes, were made in the context of a panic and a new and developing field. A field which you have already looked at with contempt and derision and an arrogance that misses the benefit of working experience and being willing to get your hands dirty in a pretty awful part of human behaviour. And as someone who has worked with children all my working life, I wouldn't want you and your attitude any where near a vulnerable child. Look, when I was a kid, when my parents were kids, this stuff went on, (meaning the abuse of kids) but it was taboo. It wasn't discussed or talked about except in hushed tones. It was kept in families. It went on and on. I've seen it, sadly, in families, and I've seen it almost destroy kids. No police were informed, no social workers in any of the cases I know about. In every case I personally know about the abusers were men. Fathers, uncles, brothers. And the victims were kids and youths. Have you spent hours sifting through the Bullock, Hadfield cases, and this case? Because I have, and I'm pretty sick of it, to be honest. I'm taking a pretty forensic approach to this. What's the evidence? And I will not and nor should you, make up your mind based on an association with Barbara Snow within the context of a panic, nor a belief that widespread and organised abuse is not possible. It is. Did you read the Attorney General Report from 1995? Really read it? I did. Behind the fantastic and unsubstantiated stories were cases of real abuse. One involved girls whose parents admitted they used ritual elements to put the fear of God into their children. They admitted it. They admitted other adults were involved. One of the girls later revealed her name. The courts couldn't prosecute because of the Statute of Limitations. In another case Arvin Shreeve used the trappings of polygamy and the precedent of marrying young girls, set in the church in the 1800s, to sexually abuse minors. He died in prison. Warren Jeff's is in prison today, and self-styled prophets are still today, using the trappings of the historical and patriarchal framework of Mormonism to sexually abuse children. Utah has a unique problem with this. So forgive me, if I read the panicked situation of the 80s, and yet still do not wish to dismiss all and every case simply because it has *panic* and *oh it's Barbara Snow and her ignorant ilk* written all over it. And to blame and demonize the therapists, parents and grandparents in what was a pretty horrific case of abuse of children including the abuse of Smith's own younger daughters, as well as her grandchildren, is to be ignorant of what these grandparents, parents and children experienced, even if the Miles were no part of it. Shame on you. Edited October 17, 2018 by Abulafia
Abulafia Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) And here's an interesting couple of points I have gleaned from sifting through the suits and contemporary accounts. No one wanted to involve the police with the abuse done by the teenagers. There seemed to be an assumption that they were young, that they would benefit from therapy, that ultimately they had most likely been abused themselves. No one wanted to involve the police when the children noted the involvement of the Miles, as far as I can tell. Perhaps it seemed too fantastical. I don't know. Immediately on hearing the children reveal the abuse of their father, the perpetrator, the police were called, that very day from the office at ISAT. That's the one at the time, that got the police involved. A father's marriage lessons with his kids. And who called the police? Barbara Snow. "1986 February 14th - Marion Smith and Mother 1 take 6 year old daughter to Barbara Snow. The meeting is recorded. Marion Smith is in attendance, whilst other family members remain outside. 6 year old describes marriage lessons with perpetrator. Barbara Snow phones the police. Marion Smith phones husband and asks him to bring perpetrator to office. In the meantime Snow interviews Jane Doe 1, who confirms what younger sister had said. Marion Smith, her husband, perpetrator and Mother 1 meet with Barbara Snow. Perpetrator allegedly says “I don’t remember anything. I don’t know what they’re talking about but my kids don’t lie” Marion Smith suggests therapeutic help and encourages perpetrator to acknowledge his crimes. [ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p9]" Yet sadly, the police reports seems to have gone missing. And remember also, that Smith notes the involvement of another family, whom she calls the Thomas's. And the involvement of her other daughter's children. It is they who were sent to Ann Tyler. And they aren't a part of this suit. (Yet). Edited October 17, 2018 by Abulafia
Abulafia Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 If anyone can help me out on when the police were informed of the alleged involvement of the Miles, that would be great. Still working through the documents.
cinepro Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 12 hours ago, Abulafia said: Yet sadly, the police reports seems to have gone missing. When you say they've "gone missing", are you saying the the department has all the files from that time period and these specific files are mysteriously not there? Or are all files from that time period archived or destroyed? 2
Abulafia Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 13 hours ago, cinepro said: When you say they've "gone missing", are you saying the the department has all the files from that time period and these specific files are mysteriously not there? Or are all files from that time period archived or destroyed? Missing, so I have been told by someone close to the case. I have heard of individual items going missing. It happened in the case for which I was a juror.. Marion Smith appears to refer to missing documents also. Am travelling, but it is at the end of her article.
Abulafia Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) I'm not sure if this is the same thing. "About eighteen months after Eileen’s divorce, Bill filed an action in the ThirdDistrictCourtseekingvisitationrightswithhischildren.WeengagedDanBushnelltodefendthechildrenagainstBill.DanincludedtheJohnsHopkinsdiagnosisofpedophileandverbaltestimonyfromDr.Whiteheadaswellasthechildren’sartinhisprotestationofBill’sclaim.Bill’ssecondwifeheardalltheevidencepresentedthatday.Billwasdeniedanyvisitation.Several years later, in connection with a civil suit against Bill filed by our two youngest children,vDan requested the court records and was told the file was missing. Laterattemptstolocatethefilealsofailed.OurassumptionisthatBillhadaconnectionintheThirdDistrictCourt,butwehaveneverbeenabletodeterminewhathappenedtothatfile. P27. Edited October 18, 2018 by Abulafia
Abulafia Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 Sorry about spacing. I painstakingly separated the words but they didn't pick up on posting.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 31 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Later attempts to locate the file also failed. Our assumption is that Bill had a connection in the Third District Court, but we have never been able to determine what happened to that file. Assumptions, innuendo, bare accusations, and the like, ain't evidence … except, it seems, in this here thread.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 1:41 AM, Abulafia said: … Shame on you.
Tacenda Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) On 10/17/2018 at 2:02 AM, Abulafia said: And here's an interesting couple of points I have gleaned from sifting through the suits and contemporary accounts. No one wanted to involve the police with the abuse done by the teenagers. There seemed to be an assumption that they were young, that they would benefit from therapy, that ultimately they had most likely been abused themselves. No one wanted to involve the police when the children noted the involvement of the Miles, as far as I can tell. Perhaps it seemed too fantastical. I don't know. Immediately on hearing the children reveal the abuse of their father, the perpetrator, the police were called, that very day from the office at ISAT. That's the one at the time, that got the police involved. A father's marriage lessons with his kids. And who called the police? Barbara Snow. "1986 February 14th - Marion Smith and Mother 1 take 6 year old daughter to Barbara Snow. The meeting is recorded. Marion Smith is in attendance, whilst other family members remain outside. 6 year old describes marriage lessons with perpetrator. Barbara Snow phones the police. Marion Smith phones husband and asks him to bring perpetrator to office. In the meantime Snow interviews Jane Doe 1, who confirms what younger sister had said. Marion Smith, her husband, perpetrator and Mother 1 meet with Barbara Snow. Perpetrator allegedly says “I don’t remember anything. I don’t know what they’re talking about but my kids don’t lie” Marion Smith suggests therapeutic help and encourages perpetrator to acknowledge his crimes. [ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p9]" Yet sadly, the police reports seems to have gone missing. And remember also, that Smith notes the involvement of another family, whom she calls the Thomas's. And the involvement of her other daughter's children. It is they who were sent to Ann Tyler. And they aren't a part of this suit. (Yet). It appears to me to be some cover up. I'm amazed at the work you continue to do to get to the bottom of this, Abulafia. I couldn't do it. Edited October 18, 2018 by Tacenda
Abulafia Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Assumptions, innuendo, bare accusations, and the like, ain't evidence … except, it seems, in this here thread. So the files have been found?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 19, 2018 Posted October 19, 2018 10 hours ago, Abulafia said: So the files have been found? What evidence do we have, save the bare allegation itself, that something nefarious is behind their unavailability? Are other files of the time period "missing"? Are other files of the time period available for inspection? If the answer to the second question is "Yes," then perhaps it's worth considering why those files are available while these files are not. Until then . . .
Abulafia Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 Cinepro. Just an added point. Marion Smith's two youngest daughters successfully sued the perpetrator. It was a *no contest* win. Do you still want to pronounce upon his innocence?
Abulafia Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 " 1993(approx), - According to Marion Smith, her two youngest daughters decided to sue perpetrator civilly for their sexual abuse. Attorney was Rocky Anderson, who by 2002 had become mayor of Salt Lake. Girls awarded a no-contest judgement of two and a half million dollars. [ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p30 ]
Kenngo1969 Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Abulafia said: Cinepro. Just an added point. Marion Smith's two youngest daughters successfully sued the perpetrator. It was a *no contest* win. Do you still want to pronounce upon his innocence? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that it was settled prior to trial? If so, I wouldn't read too much into that: Parties routinely settle without admitting liability, and it would surprise me if something different happened in in this case.
Abulafia Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: What do you mean by that? Do you mean that it was settled prior to trial? If so, I wouldn't read too much into that: Parties routinely settle without admitting liability, and it would surprise me if something different happened in in this case. They were awarded 2.5 million dollars Kengo. He didn't contest it. The daughters were to be paid monthly.
Abulafia Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 I have been trying to find the case online. Any help appreciated.
kllindley Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: What do you mean by that? Do you mean that it was settled prior to trial? If so, I wouldn't read too much into that: Parties routinely settle without admitting liability, and it would surprise me if something different happened in in this case. I thought he died before it went to trial. Did his estate not contest things? Edited October 20, 2018 by kllindley
Recommended Posts