Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[Tacenda]

On 10/26/2018 at 1:52 PM, cinepro said:

The idea that sustained trauma of that magnitude would be totally "forgotten", only to be recovered years later.  We don't remember every second of every day; we all have huge gaps of our lives that we just don't remember because that's how our memory works.  All it takes is an imaginative patient with some sort of problem (depression, eating disorder etc.) and a willing therapist to start filling in the gaps.

This woman is describing massive, intense abuse that went on for years.  It went on for hours and hours each week, and occurred in different cities under the influence of different people. 

Again, here is what she is claiming:

I think we can all agree that that woman needs serious help.  But she is making horrific accusations against several people, and I would be interested in having someone actually investigate her claims if I wasn't pretty sure of how that investigation would turn out.

Cinepro, I've always took you for a person that says it like it is, but have you not looked into human sex trafficking? In the links below there are children sex trafficked by their own parents. So as far fetched as this lady story appears, it happens.

https://fox13now.com/tag/human-trafficking/

https://kutv.com/news/local/sex-trafficking-in-utah

https://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/initiatives/human-trafficking/

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=40638726  "

 

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Cinepro, I've always took you for a person that says it like it is, but have you not looked into human sex trafficking? In the links below there are children sex trafficked by their own parents. So as far fetched as this lady story appears, it happens.

https://fox13now.com/tag/human-trafficking/

https://kutv.com/news/local/sex-trafficking-in-utah

https://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/initiatives/human-trafficking/

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=40638726  "

 

Without checking those links, I'll ask if for any of those cases the sole evidence is memories and claims that came about after talking with a therapist?

Edited November 1, 2018 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Without checking those links, I'll ask if for any of those cases the sole evidence is memories and claims that came about after talking with a therapist?

Good point, I'm sure you dislike having to open links as much as the next person. But more links for you. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3688395&page=1

https://kspope.com/therapistas/amnesia1.php

[Calm]

The problem for me is not the claim that sex trafficking happens and parents and even reputable people can be involved in it, it is the elaboration of conspiracies and extremes that gets built on that basic frame.  It should not be an automatic accepting of the details just because we should accept the general principle.

I can believe members in good standing being involved in abuse and even sex trafficking.  I am sad it is so easy for me to believe.

However, numerous members in a particular small area being involved in extensive and bizarre actions and no one being aware of them until their existence is teased out of a "recovered memory"?  Probability of that is very, very, very low, imo.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

However, numerous members in a particular small area being involved in extensive and bizarre actions and no one being aware of them until their existence is teased out of a "recovered memory"?  Probability of that is very, very, very low, imo.

Calm,  as some of the 1990s documents in the timeline have emphasised, (Introvigne) it is extremely important to distinguish between the *recovered* memory of an adult, and the accounts of a child.  The Miles suit argues that Snow's involvement in the therapy of the children invalidates their joint recollections. Jane Doe 1 and 5 would be the only ones really old enough to remember imho. And of course the corroborating evidence of Mother 1 and the Perpetrator. 

 

If children's memories contain fantastical and bizarre elements, then there might be a number of possible reasons for that along with the influence of Snow. The Lanning Guide actually deals with why children's testimonies might contain obviously untrue elements. I'll copy paste if you are interested.

[Judd]

4 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Calm,  as some of the 1990s documents in the timeline have emphasised, (Introvigne) it is extremely important to distinguish between the *recovered* memory of an adult, and the accounts of a child.  The Miles suit argues that Snow's involvement in the therapy of the children invalidates their joint recollections. Jane Doe 1 and 5 would be the only ones really old enough to remember imho. And of course the corroborating evidence of Mother 1 and the Perpetrator. 

 

If children's memories contain fantastical and bizarre elements, then there might be a number of possible reasons for that along with the influence of Snow. The Lanning Guide actually deals with why children's testimonies might contain obviously untrue elements. I'll copy paste if you are interested.

Childhood memories ‘recovered’ in adulthood are equally problematic. It’s a solution in search of a problem. Though fairly discredited, there’s still a not-insignificant minority who still engage in this belief, between society and ‘professionals.’ And, of course, some inclined to think ‘oh my, we can’t view this as discredited when child abuse is on the line!’

It’s often the unfortunate event of a well-meaning therapist colluding with their patients to destroy their lives.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Judd

[cinepro]

7 hours ago, Abulafia said:

If children's memories contain fantastical and bizarre elements, then there might be a number of possible reasons for that along with the influence of Snow. The Lanning Guide actually deals with why children's testimonies might contain obviously untrue elements. I'll copy paste if you are interested.

If abuse hasn't occurred, then the accusation of abuse is just as "fantastical and bizarre" as all the other accusations.

[cinepro]

17 hours ago, Abulafia said:

If children's memories contain fantastical and bizarre elements, then there might be a number of possible reasons for that along with the influence of Snow. The Lanning Guide actually deals with why children's testimonies might contain obviously untrue elements. I'll copy paste if you are interested.

I'll add that another part of the problem is that there are no claims for this type of abuse outside of the therapist office or law enforcement interrogation.

There is not a single case of a child going to a parent saying "Mom, the Smiths down the street have weird parties where they video tape us naked and make us eat poop."   There isn't a single case where an adult walks into a police station and says "Hey, when I was growing up, my parents and neighbors would have these weird rituals where they murdered babies and forced me to have an abortion."

That's why the theory of trauma-induced amnesia and recovered memories fails.  Not because it's not possible for it to happen occasionally, but because in this case it is theorized to happen every single time.  All over the world.  Across years and decades.  If the dozens of accusations are the ones we know about, then there must be hundreds of other neighborhoods and daycare centers where this has been going on for decades, and yet the only word of this to leak out is because of the skill of a few investigators. 

These satan worshippers developed a method of mind control and brainwashing that is so thorough, it zips up the memories airtight, with the only weakness being if the victim is asked probing and leading questions repeatedly by certain therapists and investigators.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

Cinepro. One of the more recent retrospective studies argued that the more bizarre allegations became much more uncommon when therapists stopped having training sessions, that does suggest a good correlation between accounts by adults and children having been influenced by therapists, but... again,  it may have muddied the waters as to what was going on in the case of the Carstensen children. They were being abused by someone. That someone was almost certainly their father.  

 

I don't know how the other disclosures occurred for sure. The perpetrators involvement most likely came through the child to the mother and not to the therapist.  As I have been walked through this by a lawyer, it seems that though the factual statement in the suit says the Jane Doe disclosed to her mother the Miles involvement, it doesn't say that this was the first disclosure of the Miles involvement.  So I don't  know. I thought it was clear. It isn't.  And maybe it doesn't matter. To me, it did. Now I'm not so sure.

I'm more than willing to learn on this,  what I don't want to do is argue..Snow was involved... therefore it can't be true.

It's a matter of carefully sifting out fantasy from reality.  

 

Surely if this ever got to a jury trial, then the jurors would have to be scrupulously fair. 

 

 

[cinepro]

23 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Surely if this ever got to a jury trial, then the jurors would have to be scrupulously fair.  

 

 

Well, hopefully they'd be fair. 

But I'm sure there are dozens of innocent adults who have spent years in prison who would argue that they don't have to be fair.

Edited November 4, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

13 hours ago, cinepro said:

Well, hopefully they'd be fair.  I'm sure there are dozens of innocent adults who have spent years in prison who would argue that they don't have to be fair.

That argument only takes you so far. I am 100% certain there are many, many child abusers who have never spent a day in prison.  

Edited November 4, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

For interest.  David Eccles Hardy gave permission to share his comment. He is also a lawyer. Utahns may be more familiar with his work in activism than I am from here in the UK.

 

"I have first hand knowledge of this matter. In 1986 I received a letter by fax and hand-delivered it to then Apostle Russell M. Nelson as a favor for a Washington DC attorney about the strategy to keep this matter from being exposed. I provided a signed declaration about this matter to the victims’ attorney, Craig Vernon. I spent February through May of this year interviewing victims and parents and gathering documentary evidence, much of it in the U of U Special Collections section, all supporting the victims’ allegations. I have shared this information with two national news organizations and with the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. The children, from multiple families in the Bountiful Maple Hills Ward, weren’t “getting jerked around by both sides.” They had been horrifically sexually abused by those they trusted. Their stories were consistent and corroborative. They worked with different therapists, and an MD’s examination found scarring and evidence of serious sexual abuse  in several of the victims (this evidence is in the lawsuit). The facts regarding the police “investigation” are disturbing; police gave the Miles & Bill Carstensen 24 hours advance notice that their houses would be searched - before summarily dropping the investigation upon finding no evidence. This abuse occurred. The victims, their parents and grandparents have been discredited and not believed for thirty years. Not again."

Edited November 4, 2018 by Abulafia

[cinepro]

7 hours ago, Abulafia said:

For interest.  David Eccles Hardy gave permission to share his comment. He is also a lawyer. Utahns may be more familiar with his work in activism than I am from here in the UK.

 

"I have first hand knowledge of this matter. In 1986 I received a letter by fax and hand-delivered it to then Apostle Russell M. Nelson as a favor for a Washington DC attorney about the strategy to keep this matter from being exposed. I provided a signed declaration about this matter to the victims’ attorney, Craig Vernon. I spent February through May of this year interviewing victims and parents and gathering documentary evidence, much of it in the U of U Special Collections section, all supporting the victims’ allegations. I have shared this information with two national news organizations and with the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. The children, from multiple families in the Bountiful Maple Hills Ward, weren’t “getting jerked around by both sides.” They had been horrifically sexually abused by those they trusted. Their stories were consistent and corroborative. They worked with different therapists, and an MD’s examination found scarring and evidence of serious sexual abuse  in several of the victims (this evidence is in the lawsuit). The facts regarding the police “investigation” are disturbing; police gave the Miles & Bill Carstensen 24 hours advance notice that their houses would be searched - before summarily dropping the investigation upon finding no evidence. This abuse occurred. The victims, their parents and grandparents have been discredited and not believed for thirty years. Not again."

Sounds like a great lawyer.  If I'm ever in need of a strong and committed advocate in Utah, I would definitely put him on the list.

Edited November 4, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

And more from David.

 

"Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow. I have interviewed the parent and provided this video interview to the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. Barbara Snow has also told me that the involvement of the Miles was first disclosed to her by that parent. Snow did not conjure this up. She could not have. This was not “implanted memories” by the therapist. Convenient defense - but facts matter."

[cinepro]

8 hours ago, Abulafia said:

That argument only takes you so far. I am 100% certain there are many, many child abusers who have never spent a day in prison.  

I have a good friend in my ward who is an LAPD detective in their special investigations unit into child endangerment cases.  He won't share the worst of what he sees, but from the few things he has shared, there is no doubt to me or anyone that horrific child abuse occurs.  Far too regularly.

It does a great disservice to those kids to mingle their cases with the accusations under discussion in this thread.  While there are obviously too many cases that never get discovered and prosecuted, make no mistake that when they are investigated, the evidence and prosecutions aren't based solely on accusations the kids make after talking to therapists like Barbara Snow (anymore!). 

Edited November 4, 2018 by cinepro

[cinepro]

12 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And more from David.

 

"Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow. I have interviewed the parent and provided this video interview to the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. Barbara Snow has also told me that the involvement of the Miles was first disclosed to her by that parent. Snow did not conjure this up. She could not have. This was not “implanted memories” by the therapist. Convenient defense - but facts matter."

I'm sure you already asked him this because the question is obvious, but just in case, had the children already had counseling sessions with Barbara Snow before making that claim?

Edited November 4, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

This is an ongoing discussion in a group where David gave permission to share.  His responses are what they are Cinepro.  I've appreciated the clarifications. 

[Abulafia]

This would have occurred by my reckoning between January and Feb 13th.  

 

So in that time, how many sessions did the children have with Snow?

[cinepro]

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

This would have occurred by my reckoning between January and Feb 13th.  

 

So in that time, how many sessions did the children have with Snow?

How many would it take?

I know I've posted this statement from Marion Smith before, but I'll repost it again.  As far as I'm concerned, this should have been the end of her account.  She should have posted this, and then said "Everything that came after this is unreliable garbage."

Quote

Barbara found no problems with Susan (Eileen’s oldest child, recently turned eight) or Tricia. Susan had completed psychological tests with a school psychologist two months earlier in connection with consideration of skipping a school grade. The psychologist found Susan to be, “a very healthy child with no significant problems.” Barbara told Eileen the kids seemed fine, but on hearing more about the baby tender, she re-interviewed the children for another two hours, Susan finally volunteered, “Sometimes when we’re asleep Janice comes in and puts crayons up us.” All the children in both families had appeared to be very fond of Janice. Our other daughter’s little girls corroborated their cousins’ stories about things put up their bottoms.

https://archive.org/stream/ABlipHereAndABlipThere/A Blip Here and A Blip There_djvu.txt

 

[Abulafia]

16 minutes ago, cinepro said:

How many would it take?

I know I've posted this statement from Marion Smith before, but I'll repost it again.  As far as I'm concerned, this should have been the end of her account.  She should have posted this, and then said "Everything that came after this is unreliable garbage."

 

I know that is your position. I don't find it tenable and I'm not a gullible idiot who will believe anything and everything according to a preset notion of what can and cannot, or what did and did not happen. 

 

Anyway. Posting for interest more than anything.  

 

If I am understanding your argument, it would be that a child will always disclose abuse on a first meeting with a therapist.  If they don't and are interviewed again and disclose abuse then that 2nd meeting is tainted because the child was telling the truth the first time and it is then the therapists fault for pressurising the child and rewarding them for telling lies. (With regard to the alleged abuse of the babysitter and her two male friends)

[Calm]

Quote

If I am understanding your argument, it would be that a child will always disclose abuse on a first meeting with a therapist.  If they don't and are interviewed again and disclose abuse then that 2nd meeting is tainted because the child was telling the truth the first time and it is then the therapists fault for pressurising the child and rewarding them for telling lies. (With regard to the alleged abuse of the babysitter and her two male friends)

If a therapist has a history of tainting memories (as does Snow), then everything that happens once exposure to her or those involved with her (because ideas can be talked about between alleged victims) is highly questionable.  It is the specific therapist and their use of the practice of certain types of recovered memories, pressure tactics, and leading children to create false memories that is at issue, not the entire therapy field. If a therapist uses good practices, timing of the child's revelation can take place whenever a child feels comfortable doing so, even if years later. Many therapists are trained to be effective, nonleading interviewers.  They don't keep pushing until they get accusations just because they personally believe abuse took place.  Videos and other records can be used to determine whether they have accidentally led the children into false memories and accusations or not.

I don't see anything that cinepro is saying (or anything the rest of us have said) that requires all therapy with child for possible abuse to be questionable.  You keep making leaps to extreme conclusions (all therapists are to be rejected, no abuse took place) when all of us in the thread who are questioning Snow are limiting our reservations to a type of therapy that has been found highly problematic by professionals in the field nor are any of us saying the father is likely innocent, just that the evidence presented about him isn't as clear cut as is getting claimed by you.

It would waste less of your time and efforts as well as ours if you would avoid making conclusions that we are not.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

Um, Calm..

 

Here's what Cinepro said.

 

*I've posted this statement from Marion Smith before, but I'll repost it again.  As far as I'm concerned, this should have been the end of her account.  She should have posted this, and then said "Everything that came after this is unreliable garbage."*

 

[Abulafia]

And I was responding specifically to his comment.

[Abulafia]

And I just posted David Hardy's comments because they clarify that the disclosure of the alleged Miles involvement was to the mother NOT Snow.

Snow has clarified this to be the case.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

Um, Calm..

 

Here's what Cinepro said.

 

*I've posted this statement from Marion Smith before, but I'll repost it again.  As far as I'm concerned, this should have been the end of her account.  She should have posted this, and then said "Everything that came after this is unreliable garbage."*

 

Yeah, because a particular therapist who used poor techniques that have been discredited is the one who was interviewing.

Nothing cinepro has said has ever been applied to pediatric psychology/therapy in general.  He is criticizing only certain practioners.

That you make the jump to universal makes communication with you very frustrating.