Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[Abulafia]

Calm. I was being specific to this context. Good grief. 

[Abulafia]

I'm a lone voice on this forum when it comes to this issue. I understand that. If you want an echo chamber then maybe I'll give up posting here on this issue.

 

I felt David Hardy's clarifications would be of interest. I'm obviously wrong. Your minds are made up.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

Just now, Abulafia said:

And I just posted David Hardy's comments because they clarify that the disclosure of the alleged Miles involvement was to the mother NOT Snow.

 

 

I believe everyone understands that.  What is being challenged is the why the Miles' name might have been "disclosed" by the child. We don't believe it directly follows that because the child said it outside of Snow's therapy sessions it was independent of those sessions.

A first time accusation of the Miles to the mother does not exclude the possibility that Snow, Smith, or someone else trying to be helpful asked the child (children) if the Miles were involved, thereby suggesting the possibility to the child.  Since there are no records of Snow's sessions and it is impossible to know what the likely rampant gossip/discussion in the community was exposing the children to, it is impossible to tell if the children were asked about specific people prior to the time they accused them.

There is in detangling the process of how the accusations came to be the extreme problem of the possibility of a sex ring was being talked about in the community (no way names were not brought up, "who do you think it could be?", "what about _____, they have kids over to their house a lot", etc) and multiple children were being pressured by parents to talk about abuse (and it is possible the parents asked "was it _____" going down a list of everyone they could think of, believing it would make it easier for the child to just say yes or no).  Pressure, intentional or not, will lead to false accusations and confessions in adults as well as children.  If the children are being pushed to give names of abusers, no one even needs to supply names as the kids can just point to anyone they know if they think that will take the pressure off, make parents or therapists happy, etc.  It is not unknown, for example, for children to accuse someone else they know in order to avoid having to accuse someone they love (I have no clue of how common this is though).  It is possible the children were accusing others because they didn't want to accuse their father (assuming he did abuse them).  Again, names didn't have to be suggested to them, only the idea they needed to accuse someone and that accusations were good things...something that Snow's pressure tactics and Smith and others' massive rewarding of accusations made clear to the children.  Snow triggered an avalanche, she didn't necessarily provide all the snow (pun not intended).

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm. I was being specific to this context. Good grief. 

Then write it that way.

[Abulafia]

I'm done Calm. All best. When it starts to get personal from people I like, it's just not worth it. Xx

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

I'm a lone voice on this forum when it comes to this issue. I understand that. If you want an echo chamber then maybe I'll give up posting here on this issue.

 

I felt David Hardy's clarifications would be of interest. I'm obviously wrong. Your minds are made up.

My mind isn't. I am aware of horrific stories and this is why I'm not able to conclude it's a wrap. Thanks for the clarifications by David Hardy. I don't understand those that think it's an open and shut case. I think the possiblity might be that things have been covered up as to protect the Miles and even the church's reputation. And that doesn't mean I think they're guilty, I just think they want to paint Snow as leading these children on and believing it to be the case. Wouldn't it be wonderful to email Snow and get her story? I'm up for it, but it would be better coming from you. I looked her up and she is still practising. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

I'm done Calm. All best. When it starts to get personal from people I like, it's just not worth it. Xx

My apologies if I took it too far.  It was not my intent.  There is this idealistic gut belief I have that if people come up with just the right way of saying things, understanding will occur and even persuasion and therefore agreement and conflict is resolved.  It doesn't match reality, but it drives me to endless slight variations in what I say and I tend to assume when others repeat a lot they are attempting the same thing so I probably give too much instruction on where I see possible miscommunication occurring.

As far as minds made up, on the problems of Snow's techniques, yes, unless there was somehow evidence that this technique actually worked and didn't result in false and bizarre accusations, I am not going to change my mind that any evidence not demonstrated to be independent of her involvement is suspect.  I hold this position because of the research and law enforcement findings demonstrating the problems that have resulted from these techniques.

As far as who is an abuser, I would have no problem changing my mind if credible evidence came up (videos, records of credible---in terms of based on effective techniques---interviews, any misplaced records of forensic evidence found).  My problem is so far I see all the specific evidence tied to Snow and Smith indirectly and directly or details are not given so as to be able to understand the implication of evidence (there is medical evidence, but not what kind; other therapists involved, but specifics of interviews not provided).

Edited November 4, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

I'm a lone voice on this forum when it comes to this issue. I understand that. If you want an echo chamber then maybe I'll give up posting here on this issue.

 

I felt David Hardy's clarifications would be of interest. I'm obviously wrong. Your minds are made up.

I found them extremely interesting and have been following this thread.  I'm sorry that you feel like a "lone voice" because I know for a fact that you're not alone here.  This is an emotional topic for me, so I try to avoid threads discussing the abuse that is being discussed here (I've learned from experience to avoid them now).  So, I apologize that I've not been of more support for you.  

I honestly hate the false memory stuff and accusations and really do not believe much in them.  I firmly believe that the great majority of memories that adults have of early abuse are real....and especially when they are supported by physical evidence such as is present in this case.  I don't know who abused these kids, but I 100% believe they were abused.  I acknowledge that the "who" can be open to discussion here.

I feel you have been a voice for many and not just A VOICE, but one of honesty, integrity, bravery and fairness. 

Thank you, Abulafia.

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I'm a lone voice on this forum when it comes to this issue. I understand that. If you want an echo chamber then maybe I'll give up posting here on this issue.

I think you’ve been amazing here and are speaking for so many.   I’ve been reading this closely and have appreciated all that you post.  My mind is not made up (of course about who actually abused them) about what happened here, but I believe firmly these poor children were horribly abuse by someone who they should have been able to trust.  It’s very tragic and sad.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this case.  Thanks for not backing down!!!  I have a lot of respect for you.

Edited November 4, 2018 by JulieM

[cinepro]

7 hours ago, Abulafia said:

 

If I am understanding your argument, it would be that a child will always disclose abuse on a first meeting with a therapist.  If they don't and are interviewed again and disclose abuse then that 2nd meeting is tainted because the child was telling the truth the first time and it is then the therapists fault for pressurising the child and rewarding them for telling lies. (With regard to the alleged abuse of the babysitter and her two male friends)

 

If that therapist is Barbara Snow (or someone from that school of thinking), then I would say yes. 

This claim comes to mind:

Quote

When the police concluded their investigation in 1987, Dr. Snow had accused forty adults -- almost all of them active Mormons in Lehi's Eight Ward -- to be ritual child abusers and members of a secret Satanic cult.

https://www.cesnur.org/2001/archive/mi_mormons.htm

If that number is true, then I would say that while it is possible some of those people were actually abusing children, Barbara Snow's methodology was so fatally flawed that it would be impossible to determine who (if anyone) was actually guilty by relying on the claims of  the accusers or the accused.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

I don't know if this link  has been shared yet, but thought it would be of interest. It has an article and a documentary video with Snow and Hadfield. Just started watching, so not sure what it all entails.  https://greyfaction.org/how-teal-swans-therapist-instigated-a-satanic-panic/

Also need to mention, that some on here find it hard to believe some of these stories. But really, who in the world is allowing their children to be filmed or have pics of sex abuse and become child pornography on the net?

And awhile back in the local news it mentioned a problem with parties with several LDS involved that are swapping partners. And if they can do this with children in the home, who knows what else they can do. 

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=254254&nid=148  

https://kutv.com/news/local/dangerous-liaisons-the-popular-state-of-swinging-in-utah

There is such depravity in the world, that is makes me ill, and I hope people can and will do whatever it takes to weed them out. 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Tacenda

[jerryp48]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I'm a lone voice on this forum when it comes to this issue. I understand that. If you want an echo chamber then maybe I'll give up posting here on this issue.

 

I felt David Hardy's clarifications would be of interest. I'm obviously wrong. Your minds are made up.

It just seems like right from the outset you took a presumption of guilt position.  Just my observation.

[cinepro]

Here's an interesting PBS documentary about the Hadfield case:

 

[Abulafia]

On 11/5/2018 at 2:30 AM, jerryp48 said:

It just seems like right from the outset you took a presumption of guilt position.  Just my observation.

You are wrong,  but neither am I assuming innocence. This is a complicated case.

[Abulafia]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here's an interesting PBS documentary about the Hadfield case:

 

Good find. I couldn't get behind the paywall.

[Calm]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/4848/CHILD-ABUSE-EXPERTS-DECRY-INVESTIGATORS-CLAIM.amp

The article is also good at presenting the other side  I suspect there is a good chance the reporter believes the accusations, but provides details of both positions that explain weaknesses, so helpful creating the attitudes.  Need to go to sleep so someone else can put up that.  

“Private investigator Rikki Profita, who filed an affidavit in support of a motion for a new trial in the Hadfield case, insists there are too many similarities among the investigations. She said she has investigated five sexual abuse cases involving alleged child abuse "rings" - two in Bountiful, two in Lehi (including the Hadfield case) and one in Midvale. She said she was initially hired by Hadfield relatives to interview jurors at Hadfield's trial, but has since developed a burning curiosity about the case and its similarities to other child sexual abuse cases.

All of the cases, she said, involved strikingly similar and bizarre details concerning ritual abuse, satanic themes, costumes and games. Each case also involved Snow to some degree, she said.

"I thought I'd walked into a joke," Profita said, when a Bountiful woman recited, sometimes in the same words, a tale of child abuse virtually identical to that of the Lehi case. "And some of the instances happened within hours or days of the same accusations (in a different case). They used the same identical drawings and played the same games. How? How could they be so similar?"

Dr. David C. Raskin, a University of Utah psychology professor and polygraph expert who says he has "intimate knowledge" of at least two of the celebrated cases, asks the same questions. "If there are sexual rings, I have yet to see any concrete evidence of them," he said. "There are similar factors involved in the Lehi case and Bullock case in Bountiful, which raises more than a suspicion of evidence that Barbara Snow is a key player in many of those cases.

"It is not the law enforcement people who create these situations," Raskin continued. "It is poorly trained and confused mental health professionals who use inadequate techniques and have their own agenda."...

”

Profita sees things differently, although she said she merely gathers information without drawing conclusions.

In addition to similar descriptions of the abuse, Profita said she also identified counseling techniques common to at least eight therapists, including Snow, in all five cases. She said, for example, that the children were first told of the difference between "good and bad touch." The therapist also repeated the allegations that were made by other children and hugged or encouraged the children when they gave "correct" responses and threatened them when they did not. She said the therapist would not accept denials from the children and persisted in asking the same questions in as many as 50 interviews.

"If you keep on asking the same question over and over again, the kids will catch on to what you want to hear," Profita said.”

Edited November 6, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

I'm betting Rikki Regan Profita Hunt was very likely a relative of Alan Hadfield.  

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I'm betting Rikki Regan Profita Hunt was very likely a relative of Alan Hadfield.  

I'll bet Dr. David C. Raskin is, as well.  

[Abulafia]

28 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'll bet Dr. David C. Raskin is, as well.  

It looks like she died a few years back, but bizarre to use a private investigator with a shady back ground.  

[kllindley]

On 11/4/2018 at 6:33 PM, Tacenda said:

I don't know if this link  has been shared yet, but thought it would be of interest. It has an article and a documentary video with Snow and Hadfield. Just started watching, so not sure what it all entails.  https://greyfaction.org/how-teal-swans-therapist-instigated-a-satanic-panic/

 

Thank you for this awesome link!

A couple of quotes stood out to me:

Quote

Teal Swan is a cult leader “spiritual guru” with some dangerous ideas about mental health. She claims to be part alien and to have extrasensory abilities which she uses to “heal” others’ psychological ailments, communicating with her large following via YouTube videos, speaking tours, and at her “spiritual retreat” in Costa Rica. She has made some troubling comments about suicide, and at least one of her followers has committed suicide shortly after a conversation with Teal about it.

Gizmodo recently launched a highly recommended six-part podcast — called ‘The Gateway’ — all about Swan, her upbringing, her pseudoscientific methods, her supernatural beliefs, and her followers.

Swan perpetuates the concept that symptoms of mental illness are necessarily rooted in repressed memories of childhood abuse. While traumatic events undoubtedly contribute to and cause mental illness, the idea that someone who, for example, suffers from depression but remembers a normal childhood must have repressed memories of traumatic events is extraordinarily harmful. The traumatic events were so horrendous, the narrative goes, that the brain must prevent the conscious recollection of them — a debunked concept of memory that runs contrary to the state of cognitive science today.

This is more than reminiscent of the Satanic Panic — the period during the 80s and 90s when it was believed, based on “memories” of abuse “recovered” by mental health practitioners, that nonexistent roving groups of satanists were kidnapping and abusing children — it’s quite literally the same thing.

Then the article starts addressing Barbara Snow's history rather directly:

Quote

But prosecutors only filed charges against Hadfield, and he was likely innocent. A colleague of Snow’s at the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center, and Chief Deputy Utah County Attorney Wayne Watson, witnessed one of Dr. Snow’s interviews and felt that she was pressuring children into disclosing abuse that they originally denied. One girl testified that she felt that Snow would not let her end the interview unless she lodged an accusation of ritual abuse.

Then this insightful quote from the Utah Supreme Court:

Quote

“The trial court quashed an affidavit filed by defendant in support of his motion for a new trial and declined to permit defendant an opportunity to produce evidence relating to its allegations. The affidavit had been prepared by a “paralegal/investigator” who had investigated “four separate alleged child abuse cases in which Barbara Snow or an employee of ISAT [Intermountain Sexual Abuse Center] was or is a percipient witness.” The affidavit details the following bizarre factual correlations between those cases and the case resulting in defendant’s trial: (1) they all involve a neighborhood “sex ring” of from three to twenty families; (2) they all involve members of the same church, including a significant number of religious leaders; (3) they all involve satanic rituals and neighborhood “sex parties”; and (4) in all of the cases, children taken to Barbara Snow at ISAT for counselling have in turn identified other children and adults in the neighborhood. In addition, the affidavit claims that several nearly identical allegations exist in several of these cases. Three of the cases allegedly include prominent reference to playing with, consuming, and bathing in human excrement. Pictures drawn by some of the children in treatment with Barbara Snow in two of the cases are claimed to be identical. Men dressing in women’s clothing and the use of costumes and masks were described by children in two of the cases. In three cases, the children described large groups of adults congregating for the purpose of touching naked children and referred to the use of candles and pentagrams for satanic rituals. The affidavit further alleges that no known connection exists between any of the cases except for the involvement of Barbara Snow and ISAT in the investigations and the inability of law enforcement to discover any corroborating evidence of the group activities (such as photographs, paraphernalia, etc.).”

Then there is this gem from the Court regarding the Bullock case:

Quote

“In making their case, Mr. Bullock’s defense attorneys relied, in part, on Dr. Snow’s own statements during trial. Dr. Snow testified, for example, that she was “very aggressive in [her] questioning of children,” that she was “relatively indifferent to what [would] happen to the [alleged] perpetrator,” that she did not approach interview sessions “with an open mind” but as an “ally for the child,” and that she did not see herself as a fact collector like the police. Dr. Snow also testified extensively about her interview techniques, and she acknowledged that she did not record her interviews with the children, take notes during the interviews, or write reports following the interviews. Indeed, Dr. Snow admitted that her “own integrity” was the only way of verifying what had occurred during the interview sessions. Similarly, the defense team emphasized contradictions and inconsistencies in the boys’ testimony, including the fact that one of the boys had retracted an allegation of abuse as being untrue.”

[…]

“Snow intentionally failed to preserve critical evidence of her initial and subsequent interviews in spite of the fact that she knew such interviews were critically important to both the prosecution and the defense in ascertaining the truth of the allegations she ascribed to the children. In addition, such failure was accomplished in complete bad faith since she had been requested numerous times to do so by the police and by other therapists. Finally, the loss of a record of these initial priceless interviews can never be replaced for Appellant’s defense.”

Here is this further bit of information about Snow's illustrious career as an impartial investigator of facts:

Quote

During one of the numerous investigations involving Snow, “Utah police deliberately fed her false information to see if her suggestive interviewing techniques were influencing the children’s allegations. Soon enough this information appeared in the answers of the children she interviewed,” according to Chicago Reader.

 But let's actually look into Barbara Snow's "untarnished" license:

Quote

According to documents obtained by Grey Faction from the Utah Department of Professional Licensing Social Work Board, Snow was providing services to two of her family members — a sister-in-law (initials SJ) and her daughter (initials JB) — and had been treating family members for at least 15 years. This treatment included hypnosis, which led to the supposed recovering of repressed memories of abuse by her SJ’s husband (which would seem to be Snow’s own brother).

One of the complaints, filed by a family member Snow was treating, states:

“I told Barbara that I would [redacted] when he got home, he was out of town at the time. She was furious that I would confront him and wanted me to leave him and never talk to him again. Needless to say I did confront him because I wanted answers and this was a horrible accusation. That was the night of Feb 8 and I did not talk to Barbara again until she showed up at my door on Feb 11 with a bat in her hands.”

Snow then entered the residence and asked if SJ’s husband was home. After finding out that he was not, she went into his office and “started swearing and smashing things, including a laptop computer and office equipment,” causing thousands of dollars worth of damage. There were numerous witnesses to these events, including both family members being treated by Snow. In fact, they attempted to stop Snow from causing more damage, but she began to hit them with the bat, too, and both reported they were bruised by Snow. “She smashed the laptop along with our home computer, printer, pictures and everything in the room including me,” one complainant stated. When they tried to stop her, Snow claimed that SJ knew about the abuse and let it happen. Snow left after the police were called, and a report along with photographs documented the incident. (According to the Provo, Utah police department, Snow had these records expunged in August of that same year.) Snow evaded police and hired an attorney, one of the complainants alleges.

The complainants did not pursue criminal charges against Snow, instead hoping that she would seek help. They urged the Board to permanently revoke Snow’s license, on the grounds that she is unfit to practice:

“Barbara is unbalanced and does not have a grip on reality and should not be allowed to practice on the basis that she broke her oath as a professional. She can no longer be objective with information and the fact that she was treating her own [redacted] and has been for over 15 years is a slight breach of ethics.”

“I did not pursue this matter legally, which is something I could have done, because of the [redacted] but wanted Barbara to get help which she refused to do. She needs to be stopped and I hope with the terrible accusations she made but more importantly her actions speak volumes here, that she should not be able to renew a license that she has not honored but broken too many rules that govern the reason why we have them in the first place.”

“She is not a professional in any form of the word and in my opinion, should not be treating anyone, but should get help for herself.”

They also pointed out that the supposed repressed memories that Snow uncovered were downright false.

According to a document posted online by the Board in January of 2007, Snow was also alleged to have suggested that SJ and JB were subjected to “military testing,” and alluded to previous allegations against Snow which were not disclosed in response to Grey Faction’s request.

Although Snow admitted the allegations are true and did not deny any aspect of them, the Board’s main concern in the investigation was that Snow was treating family members, not that she practiced the pseudoscience of recovered memory therapy, dabbled in harmful conspiracy theories, or, you know, smashed property and hit her own clients/family members with a baseball bat and then evaded police.

 

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I'm betting Rikki Regan Profita Hunt was very likely a relative of Alan Hadfield.  

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'll bet Dr. David C. Raskin is, as well.  

 

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

It looks like she died a few years back, but bizarre to use a private investigator with a shady back ground.  

And I'll bet Dr. David C. Raskin has an equally-shady background.  Bizarre that he was quoted in the story, too.  

[ksfisher]

On 11/4/2018 at 12:55 PM, Calm said:

It is not unknown, for example, for children to accuse someone else they know in order to avoid having to accuse someone they love (I have no clue of how common this is though).  It is possible the children were accusing others because they didn't want to accuse their father (assuming he did abuse them).

I believe children will also accuse someone else to avoid making an accusation against someone they are afraid of.

[Abulafia]

28 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

And I'll bet Dr. David C. Raskin has an equally-shady background.  Bizarre that he was quoted in the story, too.  

Oh come on Kengo. Did you even read the article to the end? I'm guessing you didn't.  

 

[Abulafia]

"Profita raises eyebrows even in the Hadfield camp. Brad Rich, Hadfield's defense attorney, said Profita has never worked on the Hadfield case. He also said he'd like to know who Profita really is."

 

"

Said Rich: "How can you use an investigator who would be impeached on the first question: What is your name?"

Profita acknowledged she used the aliases, but said it was only because she was recently married. (Rikki, she said, is a nickname.) As for the two Social Security numbers, she said she may have inadvertently given her son's number when she applied for one of the licenses.

She said the shoplifting conviction is irrelevant to her credentials as private investigator. She also said she is innocent of the charges, but decided to plead guilty at the advice of her attorney so she could avoid the stress of going to trial. In fact, she said she brought it up herself during conversations with an investigator in the attorney general's office to illustrate how people can be intimidated by the judicial system.

She said prosecutors are bringing up the shoplifting because they don't like what she's saying. "So they're shooting the bringer of bad news."

As for the charges that she isn't qualified to evaluate the situation, Profita acknowledges that she doesn't have as much experience as state detectives. She also concedes she does not have the expertise to determine just where therapists cross the line into coercion in child abuse cases.

"You're asking me (questions in) an area I have no expertise," she said. "All I can say is it doesn't appear to be working . . . . There is something wrong and there has to be some more definitive way to get at this. There has to be better evidence."

[Abulafia]

With all respect to Tacenda, the grey faction is an initiative of the Satanic Temple.

 

https://greyfaction.org/