Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think it's fair to say that men - a lot of men - are scared these days.  An allegation of sexual abuse alone is sufficient to destroy his reputation, his family, his livelihood, his life.

And we, as a society, are going along with it.  Some of us are even rooting for it.

 

After centuries marginalizing and ignoring womens' claims, I can understand if this new awareness and intolerance for abuse swings the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Hopefully we can find the proper medium where women (and men) who face abuse are respected and taken seriously, while at the same time the rights of the accused are similarly respected (and that isn't perceived as a slight to the accuser).

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, cinepro said:

After centuries marginalizing and ignoring womens' claims, I can understand if this new awareness and intolerance for abuse swings the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Hopefully we can find the proper medium where women (and men) who face abuse are respected and taken seriously, while at the same time the rights of the accused are similarly respected (and that isn't perceived as a slight to the accuser).

I appreciate and agree with what you say here.

It's going to be a hard pill for some folks to swallow. 

An allegation of sexual abuse is not evidence of itself.

The presumption of innocence applies to allegations of sexual abuse.

Due process applies to allegations of sexual abuse.

Statutes of limitations apply to allegations of sexual abuse.

Requiring the same standards of evidence as used for other claims applies to allegations of sexual abuse.

Scrutinizing allegations of sexual abuse is not, in and of itself, "victim-blaming" or "victim-shaming."

Women are not entitled to their say-so about a sexual assault claim being taken as the gospel truth simply because they are women.

Women are not entitled to privilege their claims of sexual assault from normative measures of scrutiny and evidentiary requirements simply because the accuser is a woman and the accused is a man.

Politicizing allegations of sexual assault (deeming them established without evidence, or else utterly without merit, depending on the political affiliation of the accuser and/or the accused) is a terrible, terrible thing.

Unbridled, let's-destroy-a-man's-life-solely-on-the-uncorroborated-and-unsubstantiated-say-so-of-a-woman's-claims activism is a terrible, terrible thing.

These things are indeed indicative of the pendulum having swung way too far.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[katherine the great]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Back to the article:

I think it's fair to say that men - a lot of men - are scared these days.  An allegation of sexual abuse alone is sufficient to destroy his reputation, his family, his livelihood, his life.

And we, as a society, are going along with it.  Some of us are even rooting for it.

 

It seems like most people I know equate the commandment to "not bear false witness" with any type of lying. I think lying is far too broad a definition for this commandment. I believe that THIS type of false witness is what the Bible refers to because in Biblical times, it only took a couple of people making up a story (or swearing to something they were not sure of) to send a person off to their death.  In light of the current "rape culture" climate, I worry about the men in my life. Fortunately, none of them have any aspirations for public life but I agree with you that it only takes one allegation.

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It seems like most people I know equate the commandment to "not bear false witness" with any type of lying. I think lying is far too broad a definition for this commandment. I believe that THIS type of false witness is what the Bible refers to because in Biblical times, it only took a couple of people making up a story (or swearing to something they were not sure of) to send a person off to their death.  In light of the current "rape culture" climate, I worry about the men in my life. Fortunately, none of them have any aspirations for public life but I agree with you that it only takes one allegation.

For all my support to women and to those who are victims...I so undertand the above.  It is a scary world.  I worry that retaliation of any sort would put the men friends and family in my life up against something that is only revenge.

[katherine the great]

On 10/9/2018 at 6:13 PM, Abulafia said:

There are such strong feelings in this board going one way, and as strong feelings in the opposite direction in the online world. Those views cross religious allegiances. So this isn't a Mormon/ex Mormon thing. Ex Mormons who lived through this are as skeptical as many here, and yet there are also survivors from those areas who continue to validate at least some of the claims that were made.. Mostly that they were abused, that religious elements could be introduced to manipulate them, that group abuse occurred in many cases, and that their memories are not false but remain clear, intense and traumatic. 

I don't have a strong opinion about the guilt or innocence of the individual fathers in these cases (although I have my doubts). I'm a 'big picture' kind of thinker. The big picture here is that Barbara Snow somehow uncovered organized ritual abuse of children - at least four major rings of every conceivable atrocity against children (and sometimes animals) consisting of moms, dads, uncles, babysitters and even grannies. All of these going on simultaneously within a relatively small geographic area--suddenly springing into action with Barbara Snow et al. heroically stamping them out. I don't think anyone on this board denies that children are sometimes abused in horrific manners or that pedophiles exist. We've all known people who were abused as children. It's the description of this vast underworld of otherwise normal, stand up people with jobs, families, civic and religious responsibilities that strains credulity. That, along with empirical evidence that false memories can be implanted in children and susceptible adults makes me feel quite sure that these stories originated in the minds of a very small group of quack psychologists. And a whole lot of people are still feeling the sting.

[katherine the great]

14 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

For all my support to women and to those who are victims...I so undertand the above.  It is a scary world.  I worry that retaliation of any sort would put the men friends and family in my life up against something that is only revenge.

And it completely nullifies the credibility of those people who are true victims. Its sad and scary.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

I don't have a strong opinion about the guilt or innocence of the individual fathers in these cases (although I have my doubts). I'm a 'big picture' kind of thinker. The big picture here is that Barbara Snow somehow uncovered organized ritual abuse of children - at least four major rings of every conceivable atrocity against children (and sometimes animals) consisting of moms, dads, uncles, babysitters and even grannies. All of these going on simultaneously within a relatively small geographic area--suddenly springing into action with Barbara Snow et al. heroically stamping them out. I don't think anyone on this board denies that children are sometimes abused in horrific manners or that pedophiles exist. We've all known people who were abused as children. It's the description of this vast underworld of otherwise normal, stand up people with jobs, families, civic and religious responsibilities that strains credulity. That, along with empirical evidence that false memories can be implanted in children and susceptible adults makes me feel quite sure that these stories originated in the minds of a very small group of quack psychologists. And a whole lot of people are still feeling the sting.

And yet, underneath the mistakes, exaggerations, confusion and non malicious false allegations, there are real victims with parents who first approached ISAT because they saw suspicious behaviour in their children.

It's getting underneath the panic and errors to see if there is anything there. Imho.

[katherine the great]

9 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And yet, underneath the mistakes, exaggerations, confusion and non malicious false allegations, there are real victims with parents who first approached ISAT because they saw suspicious behaviour in their children.

Victims for sure, but victims of whom I'm not sure. I don't know what Marion Smith's list of suspicious behaviors were. The one that jumps out to me is that one woman responded to Smith's Relief Society presentation with a concern because one of her very young children was trying to poke the baby's behind with an object. Is that indicative of abuse? Possibly. Is it simple childhood curiosity? Possibly. What is clear is that the people of the area were alerted by  to a list of suspicious behaviors that they should report.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

I don't have a strong opinion about the guilt or innocence of the individual fathers in these cases (although I have my doubts). I'm a 'big picture' kind of thinker. The big picture here is that Barbara Snow somehow uncovered organized ritual abuse of children - at least four major rings of every conceivable atrocity against children (and sometimes animals) consisting of moms, dads, uncles, babysitters and even grannies. All of these going on simultaneously within a relatively small geographic area--suddenly springing into action with Barbara Snow et al. heroically stamping them out. I don't think anyone on this board denies that children are sometimes abused in horrific manners or that pedophiles exist. We've all known people who were abused as children. It's the description of this vast underworld of otherwise normal, stand up people with jobs, families, civic and religious responsibilities that strains credulity. That, along with empirical evidence that false memories can be implanted in children and susceptible adults makes me feel quite sure that these stories originated in the minds of a very small group of quack psychologists. And a whole lot of people are still feeling the sting.

The weirdest thing about all this is that if they were right back then, then those things either must be continuing today in towns and cities all over America (and the world), or they just kind of petered out in the mid 90's. 

After generations of secrecy, hiding pregnant women so they could torture and sacrifice their secret babies in private, recruiting and terrorizing neighborhood kids and teenagers and then effectively erasing their memories (or thinking they had), and preventing even a single person who was ever leading these groups from having a crisis of conscience and spilling the beans to the cops, they just gave up.

Or, it continues to this day.  If there were four of these cult groups operating in suburban SLC in the 1980s, then either that was ground zero for child-abuse cults in the 1980s (and Snow just ended up being in the right place at the right time - imagine the odds!), or there are dozens and dozens of these in cities in every state, operating right now.

Are there still witches in Salem?

[katherine the great]

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

It's getting underneath the panic and errors to see if there is anything there. Imho.

It looks like to me that is precisely what the police tried to do. There were arrests and convictions. The weirdest thing to me is that the one case that Marion Smith alleges was backed up by physical evidence did not result in a conviction or even an arrest. That is puzzling.

[Abulafia]

27 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It looks like to me that is precisely what the police tried to do. There were arrests and convictions. The weirdest thing to me is that the one case that Marion Smith alleges was backed up by physical evidence did not result in a conviction or even an arrest. That is puzzling.

Agreed on that. 

[Judd]

37 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It looks like to me that is precisely what the police tried to do. There were arrests and convictions. The weirdest thing to me is that the one case that Marion Smith alleges was backed up by physical evidence did not result in a conviction or even an arrest. That is puzzling.

That’s really not the best way to investigate delicate situations like this, though. It’s best done remotely, by individuals, through internet documents, and with a larger degree of seasoning through time, where we can more accurately put things into context, especially assisted by looking through the lens contemporary religiocultural views.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Judd

[katherine the great]

39 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Are there still witches in Salem?

Idk but before Salem there was Long Island. My genealogy let me to an insightful account of lower status 17th century Long Island women (a decade or two before Salem) accusing the higher status women who had wronged them of witchcraft. One of my ancestresses was a proud participant of this practice.  

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, Judd said:

That’s really not the best way to investigate delicate situations like this, though. It’s best done remotely, by individuals, through internet documents, and with a larger degree of seasoning through time, where we can more accurately put things into context, especially assisted by looking through the lens contemporary religiocultural views.

Not sure I catch your meaning.

[Judd]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Not sure I catch your meaning.

Allegations of satanic ritualistic abuse are not the expertise of law enforcement, so it’s no surprise that they come up empty. These investigations are best done decades later, via the Internet, relying on a few perspectives, and on the backdrop of a seductive narrative. It’s really the only way to know what happened.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Judd

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Judd said:

Allegations of satanic ritualistic abuse are not the expertise of law enforcement, so it’s no surprise that they come up empty. These investigations are best done decades later, via the Internet, relying on a few perspectives, and on the backdrop of a seductive narrative. It’s really the only way to know what happened.

You are being sarcastic, right?

[Judd]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are being sarcastic, right?

I wish others were.

[Abulafia]

6 hours ago, Judd said:

Allegations of satanic ritualistic abuse are not the expertise of law enforcement, so it’s no surprise that they come up empty. These investigations are best done decades later, via the Internet, relying on a few perspectives, and on the backdrop of a seductive narrative. It’s really the only way to know what happened.

But that's not what happened historically. It isn't what's happening in this thread  and it isn't what is claimed in the suit filed by the alleged victims... 

Go check out the timeline, Judd. From sections...

1990 – Pace Memo [released in 1991] up to 60 members were giving testimony that they were ritually abused. A 30 month investigation found no evidence to substantiate testimonies. Two interview methods of therapists were criticised – 1] hypnotism 2] automatic writing

 
1992 – Utah State Task Force on Ritual Abuse. 125 alleged cases, including a case where a mother and father admitted to sexual crimes involving the ritual sexual abuse of 3 children. Other individuals named in that case, but cannot be prosecuted because of statute of limitations.

1992 – Alvin Shreeve and Sharon Kapp of Zion Society in Ogden sentenced to 20 and 10 years including sexual abuse of children. 12 members of 100 strong group, also convicted.

1992 – Richard G. Scott, apostle, gives talk noting that false allegations are a sin.

1992 – Brett Bullock files writ of habeas corpus on basis  he had ineffective counsel in jury trial.

1995 – Jane Doe 3 and Jane Doe 4 allegedly tell Mother 2 that perpetrator had sexually abused them as children. Police contacted perpetrator who fled Utah only to return where, at his mother’s house, he commits suicide.

 
1995 – Attorney General Report: Ritual Crime in the State of Utah. Investigation, Analysis and a look forward – Conclusion was testimony only evidence. No evidence of homicide.

Did you read the contemporary reports?

Perhaps, if I am able I should add the primary source documents I used..

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Abulafia

[mnn727]

On 10/3/2018 at 12:44 PM, Duncan said:

Or just because someone is in a position of authority, power, "big name" doesn't mean they can get away with anything they want to and lowly peasants just have to deal with their deceit and crimes. Like my Grandma used to say your sin is sure to find you out. How do you deal with people in power who did awful things but refuse to acknowledge it? In this Nelson case though it seems looney

How do you deal with it? you report it at the time, not 30 years later.

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

How do you deal with it? you report it at the time, not 30 years later.

when it comes to sexual assault or attempted rape there is no right way to deal with it and everyone is different. Sometimes it can be so horrific it takes time to even mentally process what happened and come to terms with it, you see that with some military combat vets as well

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

when it comes to sexual assault or attempted rape there is no right way to deal with it and everyone is different. Sometimes it can be so horrific it takes time to even mentally process what happened and come to terms with it, you see that with some military combat vets as well

Especially if they are small children.  Children may be traumatized and feel ashamed or responsible in some way and may be afraid to tell their parents, for fear that they won't believe them or accuse them of doing wrong. 

[Abulafia]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

How do you deal with it? you report it at the time, not 30 years later.

Um... 

1. It was reported at the time. 

2. The police called Def1 and Def2 24 hours before to tell them they were coming to search the house.

3. Despite the Drs report at PC hospital that all children were medically assessed as having been sexually abused, the police were not interested in proceeding.. perhaps because the parents did not want the children testifying? I don't know. 

4. For whatever reason, this matter was dropped by the police and the church and led directly to further abuse by the perpetrator of his step children.

 

This is an absolutely tragic set of events.

 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Um... 

1. It was reported at the time. 

2. The police called Def1 and Def2 24 hours before to tell them they were coming to search the house.

3. Despite the Drs report at PC hospital that all children were medically assessed as having been sexually abused, the police were not interested in proceeding.. perhaps because the parents did not want the children testifying? I don't know. 

4. For whatever reason, this matter was dropped by the police and the church and led directly to further abuse by the perpetrator of his step children.

 

This is an absolutely tragic set of events.

 

#2 is allegedly, I believe.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

#2 is allegedly, I believe.

Thanks Calm. I understand some of the police records are missing

[smac97]

5 hours ago, mnn727 said:

How do you deal with it? you report it at the time, not 30 years later.

And if you report it 30 years later, you need to limit your expectations as to what can be done about it.  Statute of limitations, witnesses gone, witnesses' recollections faded, forensic evidence gone, corroborative evidence lost, etc.

The same is true of any allegation of wrongdoing.  If you wait to report misconduct, you risk the loss/deterioration of evidence pertaining to that misconduct.

Thanks,

-Smac