Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[alter idem]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Have you read the witness testimony? Why on earth would children lie? Particularly when it's their own parent. They love their parents. They trust them. And remember,  whoever was involved in being interviewed by Snow, was there because suspicion had already been raised.  

As to the Miles being implicated, that would come only from the children of the 1st wife who actually have the memories of what allegedly happened to them.

So, are we to assume that the plaintiffs are all children from the first wife and none from the second?

[Abulafia]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I hate to be the one to break it to you but children lie.

ALL.

THE .

TIME.

Oh good grief.  Children tend not to lie about sexual abuse, that's if they ever tell anyone in childhood. Most don't. They hold it in, blame themselves, feel responsible, feel guilty, feel afraid to tell. 

I spent my working life working with young children.  Please don't insult me. 

 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Oh good grief.  Children tend not to lie about sexual abuse, that's if they ever tell anyone in childhood. Most don't. They hold it in, blame themselves, feel responsible, feel guilty, feel afraid to tell. 

I spent my working life working with young children.  Please don't insult me. 

 

Me too, children don't normally scheme to lie either. 

[provoman]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6244083/amp/High-school-clique-mean-girls-sued-targeting-boy-false-allegations-sexual-assault.html

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6244083/amp/High-school-clique-mean-girls-sued-targeting-boy-false-allegations-sexual-assault.html

Not sure if this is directed to my quote, but when I say children, I mean younger than teenagers.

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Oh good grief.  Children tend not to lie about sexual abuse, that's if they ever tell anyone in childhood. Most don't. They hold it in, blame themselves, feel responsible, feel guilty, feel afraid to tell. 

I spent my working life working with young children.  Please don't insult me. 

 

I really cannot believe your willful ignorance.  

Children are notorious about lying about sexual abuse.

Here is a story about a poor lady that was destroyed by a lying child. 

https://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2015/07/its_your_mom_im_in_jail_woman.html

"The girl's 9-year-old brother, who was at the store with his mother and siblings that day, told police that a man tried to pull him into the men's bathroom. The boy admitted that he made up the story in part because "he was a little jealous of how much attention his sister was getting," a police report said." 

Read the story if you want to know about children lying about abuse

Here is a famous historical example which caused 20 men to loose their lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

"She was friends with some of the girls who claimed to be afflicted by witchcraft and, in March 1692, proclaimed to be afflicted herself. She is responsible for the accusations of 62 people,^[2] which, along with the accusations of others, resulted in the executions of twenty people, as well as the deaths of several others in prison"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Putnam

"On August 25, 1706, when Ann Putnam Jr., one of the most active accusers, joined the Salem Village church, she publicly asked forgiveness. She claimed that she had not acted out of malice, but had been deluded by Satan into denouncing innocent people"

Her Confession

"I desire to be humbled before God for that sad and humbling providence that befell my father's family in the year about ninety-two; that I, then being in my childhood, should, by such a providence of God, be made an instrument for the accusing of several people for grievous crimes, whereby their lives was taken away from them, whom, now I have just grounds and good reason to believe they were innocent persons; and that it was a great delusion of Satan that deceived me in that sad time, whereby I justly fear I have been instrumental, with others, though ignorantly and unwittingly, to bring upon myself and this land the guilt of innocent blood; though, what was said or done by me against any person, I can truly and uprightly say, before God and man, I did it not out of any anger, malice, or ill will to any person, for I had no such thing against one of them; but what I did was ignorantly, being deluded by Satan.
And particularly, as I was a chief instrument of accusing Goodwife Nurse and her two sisters, I desire to lie in the dust, and to be humble for it, in that I was a cause, with others, of so sad a calamity to them and their families; for which cause I desire to lie in the dust, and earnestly beg forgiveness of God, and from all those unto whom I have given just cause of sorrow and offense, whose relations were taken away or accused"

 

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Not sure if this is directed to my quote, but when I say children, I mean younger than teenagers.

Do you have any studies that show children younger than teenagers do not lie, or are you just making all of this up as you go.

[Abulafia]

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

So, are we to assume that the plaintiffs are all children from the first wife and none from the second?

No.They are from the 2nd wife also. But Jane Doe 5 is not part of the suit. She is the 1st wife's 2nd oldest, child. Her witness forms part of the evidence packet.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I really cannot believe your willful ignorance.  

Children are notorious about lying about sexual abuse.

Here is a story about a poor lady that was destroyed by a lying child. 

https://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2015/07/its_your_mom_im_in_jail_woman.html

"The girl's 9-year-old brother, who was at the store with his mother and siblings that day, told police that a man tried to pull him into the men's bathroom. The boy admitted that he made up the story in part because "he was a little jealous of how much attention his sister was getting," a police report said." 

Read the story if you want to know about children lying about abuse

Here is a famous historical example which caused 20 men to loose their lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

"She was friends with some of the girls who claimed to be afflicted by witchcraft and, in March 1692, proclaimed to be afflicted herself. She is responsible for the accusations of 62 people,^[2] which, along with the accusations of others, resulted in the executions of twenty people, as well as the deaths of several others in prison"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Putnam

"On August 25, 1706, when Ann Putnam Jr., one of the most active accusers, joined the Salem Village church, she publicly asked forgiveness. She claimed that she had not acted out of malice, but had been deluded by Satan into denouncing innocent people"

Her Confession

"I desire to be humbled before God for that sad and humbling providence that befell my father's family in the year about ninety-two; that I, then being in my childhood, should, by such a providence of God, be made an instrument for the accusing of several people for grievous crimes, whereby their lives was taken away from them, whom, now I have just grounds and good reason to believe they were innocent persons; and that it was a great delusion of Satan that deceived me in that sad time, whereby I justly fear I have been instrumental, with others, though ignorantly and unwittingly, to bring upon myself and this land the guilt of innocent blood; though, what was said or done by me against any person, I can truly and uprightly say, before God and man, I did it not out of any anger, malice, or ill will to any person, for I had no such thing against one of them; but what I did was ignorantly, being deluded by Satan.
And particularly, as I was a chief instrument of accusing Goodwife Nurse and her two sisters, I desire to lie in the dust, and to be humble for it, in that I was a cause, with others, of so sad a calamity to them and their families; for which cause I desire to lie in the dust, and earnestly beg forgiveness of God, and from all those unto whom I have given just cause of sorrow and offense, whose relations were taken away or accused"

 

 

Danzo, if all you can find  for *notorious evidence of children lying about sexual abuse* is a few accounts from 1692 and 1706, I am not going to respond to you. Again, most childhood sexual abuse is never reported. Never prosecuted. 

 

[alter idem]

5 hours ago, Abulafia said:

As I understand it, false accusations (of child abuse) are rare.  But let me go see if I can back that up.  

That may be true in general, but unfortunately not true for the time period in the US called 'The Satanic Panic' of the 80's and 90's.  Lots of children were prompted, coerced and manipulated into making false accusations through the influence of unscrupulous  therapists.  Barbara Snow, who was involved in the case being discussed in  this thread,  and was one of those therapists and the Miles's and others being accused, along with dozens of other innocent people in the Bountiful area are some of the victims of this modern day witchhunt.  Are you familiar with the McMartin preschool case?  That's one of the most famous from that time period.

[alter idem]

21 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

No.They are from the 2nd wife also. But Jane Doe 5 is not part of the suit. She is the 1st wife's 2nd oldest, child. Her witness forms part of the evidence packet.

So, you said this;

"As to the Miles being implicated, that would come only from the children of the 1st wife who actually have the memories of what allegedly happened to them".

 

So I'm confused.  If the Miles' could only be implicated by the children of the first wife, why are they being implicated in  this present case by children from the second wife who really have no knowledge to accuse them?   Seems to me that  they and their attorney are simply trying to tie  this unfairly to the church and trying to get publicity out of it because the Miles' are related to Pres. Nelson.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Danzo, if all you can find  for *notorious evidence of children lying about sexual abuse* is a few accounts from 1692 and 1706, I am not going to respond to you. Again, most childhood sexual abuse is never reported. Never prosecuted. 

 

You didn't read very well, my first example was from my area and just happened a few years ago.

[Abulafia]

14 minutes ago, alter idem said:

That may be true in general, but unfortunately not true for the time period in the US called 'The Satanic Panic' of the 80's and 90's.  Lots of children were prompted, coerced and manipulated into making false accusations through the influence of unscrupulous  therapists.  Barbara Snow, who was involved in the case being discussed in  this thread,  and was one of those therapists and the Miles's and others being accused, along with dozens of other innocent people in the Bountiful area are some of the victims of this modern day witchhunt.  Are you familiar with the McMartin preschool case?  That's one of the most famous from that time period.

I'm aware of the ritual abuse scare of the 80s. The Pace Memo and so forth. I'm looking at the evidence in the suit, which is all I can do, and the report by Marion Smith, the maternal grandmother. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the children were severely sexually abused. Who by, is the issue.  These children are now adults and we must assume that all 3 girls from the first marriage are blaming the babysitter, her accomplices (who seem to be connected to the Miles), and the Miles,rather than their own father. That takes us so far, but we must then assume that Bill Carstensen is lying when he admits on tape to Marion Smith that the Miles were involved.  I would think that tape is still around and can be used as evidence. 

Calm, unless Smac beats me to it, and would do a better job, I have made a time line, which I have found helpful. I did this by cross referencing the suit and Marion Smith's account where it was helpful. I'll post later, but tiredness is overcoming me at present (night time here in the UK), and I really do need to breathe from reading this stuff. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

Alter Idem, the children from the 2nd marriage are suing the Miles for negligence as I understand it. It's in the suit. 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

I'm aware of the ritual abuse scare of the 80s. The Pace Memo and so forth. I'm looking at the evidence in the suit, which is all I can do, and the report by Marion Smith, the maternal grandmother. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the children were severely sexually abused. Who by, is the issue.  These children are now adults and we must assume that all 3 girls from the first marriage are blaming the babysitter, her accomplices (who seem to be connected to the Miles), and the Miles,rather than their own father. That takes us so far, but we must then assume that Bill Carstensen is lying when he admits on tape to Marion Smith that the Miles were involved.  I would think that tape is still around and can be used as evidence. 

Calm, unless Smac beats me to it, and would do a better job, I have made a time line, which I have found helpful. I did this by cross referencing the suit and Marion Smith's account where it was helpful. I'll post later, but tiredness is overcoming me at present (night time here in the UK), and I really do need to breathe from reading this stuff. 

Abulafia, it's great that you are "aware" of the ritual abuse scare of the 80s, but you need to be more than aware of it.  Read up on the cases, and the claims that were made.  Read up on how sure the kids were these things happened to them.  Read up on who the therapists were that were involved.

It's simply irrational to understand all the other false claims of RSA and how they happened, and then look at this situation and say "but I think it really happened in this case" when it has the same warning signs as the other cases (and the same flimsy evidence). 

Perhaps the fact that Bill Carstensen was actually molesting kids makes this a more difficult case.  But let's not compound that tragedy by falsely accusing others. 

 

 

[Calm]

Marion Smith, the grandmother, was also the first director of the clinic Barbara Snow worked at and it sounds like she shares the same theories about interviewing children as Snow did...which is very problematic if she attempted to act as both therapist and family member because she could have a huge impact on the children which might be more difficult to figure out from typical family influences because she would most likely be using her professional training when she was engaging as a family member. 

Appealing to Marion Smith as an independent witness doesn’t work if she was also involved withSnow professionally. Instead it creates the likelihood that Snow’s influence on this family was much more extensive than other such cases and Smith’s own likely tendencies to contribute to creating false memories through questionable techniques needs to be taken into account. 

Quote

In 1982 I became the first director of ISAT, (Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center) which at the time was the only agency in Utah devoted exclusively to the treatment of child sexual abuse. I had returned to graduate school at the University of Utah when our youngest daughter was five and was a board member for Utah Girls Village when they decided to expand their program to include the treatment and preventionofchildsexualabuse. AlongwiththeothertherapistsatISAT,Itrained around the country under most of the national experts then practicing in this brand new field in psychotherapy. Child sexual abuse emerged as an area of social and psychological  imperative interest only in the late seventies and early eighties and we were on the cutting edge of national debate and research. It is ironic how the experience I gained was to play out in our own family’s life.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[alter idem]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I'm aware of the ritual abuse scare of the 80s. The Pace Memo and so forth. I'm looking at the evidence in the suit, which is all I can do, and the report by Marion Smith, the maternal grandmother. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the children were severely sexually abused. Who by, is the issue.  These children are now adults and we must assume that all 3 girls from the first marriage are blaming the babysitter, her accomplices (who seem to be connected to the Miles), and the Miles,rather than their own father. That takes us so far, but we must then assume that Bill Carstensen is lying when he admits on tape to Marion Smith that the Miles were involved.  I would think that tape is still around and can be used as evidence. 

Calm, unless Smac beats me to it, and would do a better job, I have made a time line, which I have found helpful. I did this by cross referencing the suit and Marion Smith's account where it was helpful. I'll post later, but tiredness is overcoming me at present (night time here in the UK), and I really do need to breathe from reading this stuff. 

When you are rested, here is some information on the Satanic panic.  It was more than just a 'scare' in the 80's, it's what drove these cases--including the one against the Miles family.  Personally, I'd rather not see these poor people dragged into this hell again. I think that time, more knowledge and hindsight should help us see  this clearly for what it is.

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanic_Panic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

https://www.vox.com/2016/10/30/13413864/satanic-panic-ritual-abuse-history-explained

https://www.people.vcu.edu/~dbromley/undergraduate/spiritualCommunity/SatanicCults.html

 

This former case which is being dredged up and resurrected is one of these cases from the 1980's 'Satanic panic' scare.  Barbara Snow, the therapist, was a driving force in many of the unsubstantiated allegations here in the LDS community--some forty individuals were accused through her efforts giving 'therapy' to children.  As was mentioned, the grandmother was involved with Snow's clinic, so I don't see how we can consider her as objective.   The children from the second marriage have no knowledge of the Miles's guilt, yet they are suing them?  Why?  Negligence for what?  There's no evidence the accusations had any credibility back in 1985, let alone now.

 

[Anijen]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Danzo, if all you can find  for *notorious evidence of children lying about sexual abuse* is a few accounts from 1692 and 1706, I am not going to respond to you. Again, most childhood sexual abuse is never reported. Never prosecuted. 

Abulafia, I helped with the prosecution of a sexual abuse case were the defendant got 70-150 year sentence. He also committed serious sexual assaults in another county. The County Attorney there could have brought charges and also tried him there, but we chose not to because this man has no chance of getting out and he will die in prison. However, the main reason that we did not bring charges against him and prosecute him is the family asked us not to, because he will never get out, and they did not want to relive their experiences and face him in court (they would have).

Many times (almost always) pedophiles are repeat offenders. Sometimes if justice for one victim suffices, other victims do not want to go through the pain for a trial on their assault, they are fine with the pedophile being behind bars from a different case. Just cause some are never prosecuted (for one crime) does not mean they are not facing justice.

Moreover, if no other assaults have happened since, it could go to show that it indeed was a made up memory because most pedophiles will repeat, over and over again.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Anijen

[Rain]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Abulafia, it's great that you are "aware" of the ritual abuse scare of the 80s, but you need to be more than aware of it.  Read up on the cases, and the claims that were made.  Read up on how sure the kids were these things happened to them.  Read up on who the therapists were that were involved.

It's simply irrational to understand all the other false claims of RSA and how they happened, and then look at this situation and say "but I think it really happened in this case" when it has the same warning signs as the other cases (and the same flimsy evidence). 

Perhaps the fact that Bill Carstensen was actually molesting kids makes this a more difficult case.  But let's not compound that tragedy by falsely accusing others. 

 

 

I have not read up on these things, but it sounDS like you have. I have a friend from around that time who was likely (according to her aunt's book) raped in a park. She went through therapy and it is a long story, but my friend talked a out all the things from this time about Satanism etc. 

If these kids were a used by someone and my friend was raped - I'm wondering if actual abuse or assault of some kind would actually make it easier to be more affected by this kind of "therapy" and more likely to implicate others. Did you see anything with your reading of anything like that? 

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

Do you have any studies that show children younger than teenagers do not lie, or are you just making all of this up as you go.

 

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED332135.pdf

"The results of the present study indicate that professionals reported a surprisingly small percentage of cases as having been false. The results also indicated that the percentage of false reports was related to the sex of the interviewer, age of the child, and profession of the interviewer."

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED332135.pdf

"The results of the present study indicate that professionals reported a surprisingly small percentage of cases as having been false. The results also indicated that the percentage of false reports was related to the sex of the interviewer, age of the child, and profession of the interviewer."

I suspect false allegations are more dependent on how parents and therapists react than on children.  If children are lead by parents and therapists, even unintentionally, false allegations will often be made in an effort to please the adults.  If care is taken to not taint children's testimony, accuracy goes up.

But you can't use global stats to dismiss potential impact of a particular therapist with problematic treatment choices any more than you could use stats on the honesty of cops to dismiss the impact of a cop who chooses to plant evidence, etc., when he is certain the suspect is guilty but evidence enough to convict is lacking.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED332135.pdf

"The results of the present study indicate that professionals reported a surprisingly small percentage of cases as having been false. The results also indicated that the percentage of false reports was related to the sex of the interviewer, age of the child, and profession of the interviewer."

Interesting study.

You should read it. 

The concluding paragraph on page 10 contains a wise caution that this study does not measure the rate children lie.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Interesting study.

You should read it. 

The concluding paragraph on page 10 contains a wise caution that this study does not measure the rate children lie.

Indeed.  Determining what is a lie is dependent on knowing what the truth is.  And it is likely rare that all the discussed facts are known in abuse cases (perhaps if everything was videotaped, but otherwise it may be more about perception of what happened than actual knowledge).

[Abulafia]

Cinepro, I've read up on Barbara Snow. She is still practicing. I think we have to be careful here in dismissing these victims, now adults just because at some point Barbara Snow was involved. These were severely traumatised kids. I understand the reluctance to believe anyone else was involved except the father. (Which is I think how this conversation is going) I agree that the father was definitely involved.  The children may have been making stories up because they would rather accuse others than their own daddy. I get that.  It's plausible to me. But then one has to account for the tape recording in which Bill admits to his mother in law that the babysitter and the Miles were involved. That tape recording is still extant I would assume, and is problematic if we want to dismiss the claims altogether. We have to accept Bill was lying also. 

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

I would like to know if he was medicated as well as his usual style of conversational interaction with his family.  From what was reported by Smith, he seemed to be prone to going along with what ever was being promoted even if not good for him.

As an abuser, lying was hardly foreign to him.  Deflecting negative attention to someone else, blaming others...not seeing why that would be a problem for him.

Seriously, do you find it doubtful that an abuser who lied about his own involvement in abuse might lie about others' involvement?

Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm