Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[SteveO]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

What does Bill Clinton have to do with anything? CFR that I have ever defended Bill Clinton's behavior or retract.  Wattabout wattabout wattabout. Total straw man.

There’s nothing wrong with what I wrote.  And I’m happy to answer your CFR if you can show me where I said that you did?  

Edited October 5, 2018 by SteveO

[alter idem]

The therapist involved in this case has been doing this for many years and has left a lot of destruction in her path.

 

https://greyfaction.org/how-teal-swans-therapist-instigated-a-satanic-panic/

 

The hysteria which took hold in Bountiful is an example of what can happen when this goes unchecked.  The sad thing is that there is often an element of truth to the allegations, but then many innocent people get caught up as well.  It seems that the father of the children may have been actually guilty,  but the truth didn't come out until years later in his second marriage and new allegations. 

The police would have investigated and if they'd found credible evidence, the father would have been charged, but did that happen?  It doesn't look like it because if it had, there would have been a disciplinary counsel held.   

[cinepro]

46 minutes ago, alter idem said:

The police would have investigated and if they'd found credible evidence, the father would have been charged, but did that happen?  It doesn't look like it because if it had, there would have been a disciplinary counsel held.    

I think that's the problem.  If the grandmother's story about Bill Carstensen is correct (and from what I can tell, there is good evidence he was abusing kids), then the Church seriously dropped the ball on his case. 

But the further accusations against Brenda and Richard Miles and the ring of child-molesting baby sitters seem to veer off into the realm of moral-panic conspiracy theories that were too common in the 1980s and fostered by "recovered memory" therapists, one of whom (Barbara Snow) was involved early on in the case.

Edited October 5, 2018 by cinepro

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I think that's the problem.  If the grandmother's story about Bill Carstensen is correct (and from what I can tell, there is good evidence he was abusing kids), then the Church seriously dropped the ball on his case. 

But the further accusations against Brenda and Richard Miles and the ring of child-molesting baby sitters seem to veer off into the realm of moral-panic conspiracy theories that were too common in the 1980s and fostered by "recovered memory" therapists, one of whom (Barbara Snow) was involved early on in the case.

The problem is Bill appears to have confessed to Marion (The grandmother) that he abused his kids and that the Miles were involved 

 

""MARION: Do you know how frequent the parties at Miles’ were?
BILL: I would say...you’re going on probably talkin’one or two times a month.
MARION: How did the parties get organized?
BILL: (long, long pause) I would say the ...majority of them were probably
through...actually between Janice and ****...her letting him know who she was tending
for and..."

[Abulafia]

I am utterly baffled as to why Bill Carstensen wasn't subject to church discipline.  Baffled.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

The problem is Bill appears to have confessed to Marion (The grandmother) that he abused his kids and that the Miles were involved 

 

""MARION: Do you know how frequent the parties at Miles’ were?
BILL: I would say...you’re going on probably talkin’one or two times a month.
MARION: How did the parties get organized?
BILL: (long, long pause) I would say the ...majority of them were probably
through...actually between Janice and ****...her letting him know who she was tending
for and..."

That is way too sketchy given the source and then the hearsay. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I am utterly baffled as to why Bill Carstensen wasn't subject to church discipline.  Baffled.

Awful, true....but was he ever charged or convicted? Did he confess to leaders? I'm not sure why a leader or two in a local congregation is more responsible than the police and I don't say that to say both aren't responsible. An excommunication would be meaningless to any future non-Mormon victims, a conviction would be far more useful. Also, the second wife knew, she was even informed by the first wife,  but chose to risk it. With that mindset, I'm wondering why church discipline, without a conviction, wouldn't have just been more false accusations for her. 

[alter idem]

18 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I am utterly baffled as to why Bill Carstensen wasn't subject to church discipline.  Baffled.

Did the police investigate him?  Were there any charges brought against him?  If that happened then I understand being baffled, but without any evidence it's pretty hard to bring a case against someone, and so it's also harder for church leaders to justify holding a disciplinary counsel.

[alter idem]

16 minutes ago, juliann said:

Awful, true....but was he ever charged or convicted? Did he confess to leaders? I'm not sure why a leader or two in a local congregation is more responsible than the police and I don't say that to say both aren't responsible. An excommunication would be meaningless to any future non-Mormon victims, a conviction would be far more useful. Also, the second wife knew, she was even informed by the first wife,  but chose to risk it. With that mindset, I'm wondering why church discipline, without a conviction, wouldn't have just been more false accusations for her. 

I have to agree with your assessment of the 2nd wife's excuses.  From what was said, it sounds like the first wife warned her of the allegations, but she ignored them.  This isn't surprising at all, it's common to assume sour grapes on the part of the ex-spouse and many will ignore these kinds of warning, but sometimes it has dire consequences.  Her claim that the only reason she ignored the warnings was because he wasn't excommunicated sounds like rationalization on her part.  This is not the standard for determining whether or not someone is guilty of a criminal act, IMO.

[cinepro]

I'm sorry, but this is just so problematic.  On page 12, it says:

Quote

In Salt Lake, Barbara Snow was seeing the Thomas children from the Bountiful neighborhood who told the same stories of abuse by Miles, Bill and the same baby tenders.  The Thomas children were also victims of abuse by perpetrators in the Brett Bullock case.

Hmm, that's interesting.  What was the Brett Bullock case?

Shockingly, it was a man who was sent to prison after his ex-wife, in the middle of their custody dispute, took their children to Barbara Snow and they started remembering being abused by their dad:

Quote

According to Bullock, in September 1985 when it appeared Bullock and his wife at the time were likely to win custody, the ex-spouse took the children to Dr. Barbara Snow, a therapist with the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center.

Before long, Snow was spearheading the investigation into the alleged abuse, which she told police was rampant in the neighborhood. Bullock was eventually charged with abusing four boys when they were 6 or 7 years old.

Snow did not take notes or record any of her interviews with the children, and police found no physical evidence of the alleged abuse, according to court records.

A recent 10th Circuit Court of Appeals opinion, while denying Bullock's request for a new trial, dubbed Snow's interview techniques "dubious."

Inmate is still adamant abuse conviction off-base

I feel so sorry for the Miles family having this dredged up again.  I have a cousin who worked in a day care center when he was 18, and a parent made an accusation against him that was later shown to be false (when the police investigated, it was discovered the parents had misunderstood what their child had said and what they were accusing him of couldn't have happened). 

But the accusation just about ruined my cousin's life and he was suicidal from the effects of all the people who felt like they "had to believe the child," and once someone is accused of that, it never goes away.

[Abulafia]

3 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I have to agree with your assessment of the 2nd wife's excuses.  From what was said, it sounds like the first wife warned her of the allegations, but she ignored them.  This isn't surprising at all, it's common to assume sour grapes on the part of the ex-spouse and many will ignore these kinds of warning, but sometimes it has dire consequences.  Her claim that the only reason she ignored the warnings was because he wasn't excommunicated sounds like rationalization on her part.  This is not the standard for determining whether or not someone is guilty of a criminal act, IMO.

No. No. She disbelieved the previous wife.  Thought she was making it all up. 

Bill had received no church discipline. Nothing. Was even given a blessing by Neal A Maxwell. 

I am being told the police reports have been lost. He was never charged. He did attend councelling and was diagnosed with paedophilia. 

Are we not trusting Marion Smith here?

The multiple surgeries are strong evidence the children were abused. 

 

"The Bountiful police, after interviewing ... and .....,showed no interest
in pursuing the allegations."

"Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification
of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.
Even with his expertise and extreme kindness to children, our grandchildren were very angry about the examinations."

[Abulafia]

2 hours ago, alter idem said:

The therapist involved in this case has been doing this for many years and has left a lot of destruction in her path.

 

https://greyfaction.org/how-teal-swans-therapist-instigated-a-satanic-panic/

 

The hysteria which took hold in Bountiful is an example of what can happen when this goes unchecked.  The sad thing is that there is often an element of truth to the allegations, but then many innocent people get caught up as well.  It seems that the father of the children may have been actually guilty,  but the truth didn't come out until years later in his second marriage and new allegations. 

The police would have investigated and if they'd found credible evidence, the father would have been charged, but did that happen?  It doesn't look like it because if it had, there would have been a disciplinary counsel held.   

There was credible evidence. See my comment above.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

I am utterly baffled as to why Bill Carstensen wasn't subject to church discipline.  Baffled.

He was never even charged with any crimes.  Read page 16.

 

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

The problem is Bill appears to have confessed to Marion (The grandmother) that he abused his kids and that the Miles were involved 

 

""MARION: Do you know how frequent the parties at Miles’ were?
BILL: I would say...you’re going on probably talkin’one or two times a month.
MARION: How did the parties get organized?
BILL: (long, long pause) I would say the ...majority of them were probably
through...actually between Janice and ****...her letting him know who she was tending
for and..."

If you read the conversation, he really doesn't.  He seems very confused, and it is the interviewer introducing the ideas of "shots" being given to the children, or the Miles or teenagers being involved.

The most important clue is when she says that after an hour of interviewing him:

"No new information was really received by us." (p.21).

The only thing Bill ever talked about with any surety was that he was abused by his mother, and that he abused his kids (even sometimes in a group). 

But all of the stuff about the Miles, the baby sitters, video taping, shots, etc. is being introduced by the interviewer (and, presumably, Barbara Snow).

 

Another huge clue is when she says "Perhaps Bill had little memory of many of his actions as he apparently was highly dissociative." (p.20)  That is a myth created by the recovered-memory theorists to explain why, with their help, people are suddenly able to remember something.  From the review:

Quote

More recently, her research has also shown that it is possible to induce, through questioning, completely false memories of emotionally traumatic events. This book shows the false side of recovered memories, and their horrifying consequences, through the stories of a number of the accusers and accused. Time after time, unhappy, tormented, or just plain uneasy young women are encouraged to dig into their unconsciouses and find the roots of their malaise in acts of childhood abuse. What is even more astonishing is that this abuse often allegedly includes not just rape and sodomization of children as young as two or three but also events that go beyond evidence or believability: repeated stabbings that leave no scars, sacrifice of human infants on a massive scale, and organized satanic cults that seem to enlist almost everyone in town.

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by cinepro

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

There was credible evidence. See my comment above.

Credible evidence for abuse by the father does not equate to credible evidence for abuse by the Miles.

[Abulafia]

Cinepro. I know he was never charged with any crimes. The Bountiful police weren't interested in pursuing the allegations. See my note above

"The Bountiful police, after interviewing ... ...and ........,showed no interest
in pursuing the allegations"

I'm baffled at the police response and the church response.  

 

[juliann]

33 minutes ago, cinepro said:

 

But all of the stuff about the Miles, the baby sitters, video taping, shots, etc. is being introduced by the interviewer (and, presumably, Barbara Snow).

 

The reason the McMartin case is seared into the minds of CA who were inundated with it is because there were videotapes. After it all fell apart, those videos were taken apart, piece by piece, and it was horrifying how those children were given ideas then guided into saying it themselves, sometimes to the point of badgering. That is why I will never give this any credence, I have seen how it is done.

Abulafia, I've seen you summarize more than once by insisting there was abuse as if that means everyone who was named was a part of it. Of course they were abused. Of course there is medical evidence. But what I did see about surgery said that it was the step father who caused it with a pencil as punishment. What does this have to do with anyone else?

What happened in the McMartin case is the stories got wilder and crazier to the point it became unbelievable. That seems to be what is happening here. 

[Abulafia]

Calm. Bill Carstensen was a lawyer.  He's not stupid. It seems like he was abused by his mother. This stuff is just tragic. I mean we,can say Bill was lying to Marion Smith, or we can say that Marion was lying about the recording or notes she took on their conversation. But if she is telling the truth, then Bill clearly implicates the Miles as do the children.

[Abulafia]

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

The reason the McMartin case is seared into the minds of CA who were inundated with it is because there were videotapes. After it all fell apart, those videos were taken apart, piece by piece, and it was horrifying how those children were given ideas then guided into saying it themselves, sometimes to the point of badgering. That is why I will never give this any credence, I have seen how it is done.

Abulafia, I've seen you summarize more than once by insisting there was abuse as if that means everyone who was named was a part of it. Of course they were abused. Of course there is medical evidence. But what I did see about surgery said that it was the step father who caused it with a pencil as punishment. What does this have to do with anyone else?

What happened in the McMartin case is the stories got wilder and crazier to the point it became unbelievable. That seems to be what is happening here. 

No. I think the children were definitely abused by the perpetrator in the first and 2nd marriage. The Miles were accused by the children and Bill implicates them according to Marion Smith.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Abulafia

[rodheadlee]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

No. I think the children were definitely abused by the perpetrator in the first and 2nd marriage. The Miles were accused by the children and Bill implicates them according to Marion Smith.

That is no surprise you think all men are guilty

[cinepro]

58 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Cinepro. I know he was never charged with any crimes. The Bountiful police weren't interested in pursuing the allegations. See my note above

"The Bountiful police, after interviewing ... ...and ........,showed no interest
in pursuing the allegations"

I'm baffled at the police response and the church response.  

 

I too am disappointed in the police investigation into Carstensen.  I'm not "baffled" by the Church's lack of response in light of them not knowing for sure what happened. 

Without a conviction, it's easy to rely on the police (and Carstensen's own denials) and not take action.

[Abulafia]

51 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

That is no surprise you think all men are guilty

 I believe the children were severely sexually abused because the medical evidence clearly states they were severely sexually abused.

So, then we have to ask who they were abused by.  Who  do you think abused them? Someone did.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I too am disappointed in the police investigation into Carstensen.  I'm not "baffled" by the Church's lack of response in light of them not knowing for sure what happened. 

Without a conviction, it's easy to rely on the police (and Carstensen's own denials) and not take action.

So, what you are saying is that the church will not take action on child abuse cases unless there is a suit first and Bill Carstensen was proven guilty in a court of law?  Is the same burden of proof as high in other cases of church discipline?  These are sincere questions. 

[Calm]

I may not be posting much here the next while for several reasons, my apologies if it feels I have left anything unanswered.  Several are expressing my thoughts, so I don't see a reason to repeat them and honestly I can't handle reading in depth the tragedies right now as my anxiety levels are up for some reason....and if I can't do the research, I can't be accurate in my claims, etc.  Maybe once I get some pressing matters taken care of, I can do due diligence again.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Calm. Bill Carstensen was a lawyer.  He's not stupid. 

I don't see how the one statement follows the other. 

Lawyers can be just as stupid as anyone else (sometimes even dumber).

[Danzo]

38 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

 I believe the children were severely sexually abused because the medical evidence clearly states they were severely sexually abused.

So, then we have to ask who they were abused by.  Who  do you think abused them? Someone did.

I really hope you never sit on a jury.   That is a completely awful statement.  this is how innocent people end up in jail.

"someone must of have done it, therefore someone has to go to jail"