Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[jerryp48]

Is anyone seriously buying into this? 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, jerryp48 said:

Is anyone seriously buying into this? 

Several posters in this very thread, actually.

[jerryp48]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Several posters in this very thread, actually.

My gosh!  The only thing more unbelievable than her story is that others believe her story.  I've entered the twilight zone.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, jerryp48 said:

My gosh!  The only thing more unbelievable than her story is that others believe her story.  I've entered the twilight zone.

Welcome!

ETA: I should have added, prepare to be scolded for your scepticism ...

Edited October 6, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Abulafia]

6 hours ago, Anijen said:

You was on a jury for three months?! Even murder trials don't take that long here. Longest trial I've been part of was 5 days, it was a child sexuall molestation case. (read it here), although the case went on for three years, due to the defense lawyers were changed and a slew of continuances (asked for by the defence).  The trial lasted a week. 3 months as a juror, wow!

I think the UK system works differently.  The Crown Prosecution decides if there is enough evidence to try a case and then 12 jurors are picked. I tried to get out of it as I was caring for a sickly and elderly  mum at the time, but the judge was having none of it.  Looking back it was a very intense but rewarding three months. I have faith in the British justice system in these cases. Sadly the police had lost vital evidence otherwise on one of the counts we might have changed our vote. The judge originally asked for unanimity but when that wasn't possible decided on 10/12.  

[Abulafia]

Look, sexual abusers tend to be lovely people. They love kids. They often work with them on voluntary bases. They are sweet, dear people, you'd never imagine them capable.

What's important here is the evidence. Comb the suit Craig Vernon filed, then comb it again. Assess it on the evidence. Victim statements are part of that evidence. Analyse that together with medical and other forms of background information.

If you find Marion Smith's account too horrendously outrageous,  don't use it . The evidence and the strike to dismiss by the Miles is all there online. Read those.

But I can assure you that sex rings do occur. People with the same proclivities tend to be drawn to each other, and they commit and ask children to commit vile and terrible acts..They photograph them and videotape them. 

 

Danzo. Yes. An earnest investigation into any claims of child abuse where the police can't or won't pursue.  Believing the victims might be a start...And goodness, there should never be a statute of limitations on child abuse. There isn't one here in the UK. Thank God. Children can often take years to come forward.  These children in the Carstensen case are now, what, in their late 30s and it has taken this long for them to come forward. There are 6 victims here, who all bear the deep mental and physical scars of severe sexual abuse. 

6 victims who never saw justice from the police or the church. Three of the victims would never have suffered abuse had the first 3 children been believed.  

Please, please, let's not blame the second wife.  What was she to do in the circumstance but believe and trust the civic and religious system that was set up to protect her and her children?

How can the system be strengthened, because from what I am hearing on the grapevine there are many more victims ready to come forward and file suit in other abuse cases.

Just an added point to Danzo. In the Utah area I stayed in, with no details to protect my friend. She told her mission president that her father had abused her through all her childhood. Her father was a currently serving bishop. After some hair raisingly bad advise to her that nearly saw her sent home because she was partly responsible, her father was immediately released from his calling and if I remember rightly was disfellowshipped.  He was the sweetest, kindest man. A 2ww veteran. Brave.

The only thing that gave me pause was when he (prior to this coming out)  invited me for an interview in his home office and started talking about sexual acts that I, as then an 18 year old, found excruciatingly embarrassing.  

The wider point being that the church did the right thing in his case, on the daughters testimony and released and disciplined him. That outed him, and saved all his grandkids from the same fate. The Church sometimes gets it right. (He was also sexually abused as a child)

Edited October 6, 2018 by Abulafia

[3DOP]

On 10/3/2018 at 11:06 AM, Anijen said:

I think part of the reason that sexual harassment and assault claims are believed (on their face, even in the absence of evidence) is that they are so extreme and outrageous that the thought of the accusations being false is itself a violation of social norms. To falsely accuse an innocent man of sexual harassment and assault is so patently unethical and beyond the pale of acceptable behavior that many assume it pretty well must be true. “Why in the world would she make it up if it wasn’t true?” is likely the first and only thought needed to accept her claims. No rational, responsible, moral person would do that.

Well...you can follow the money...in many cases.

Or you can follow the ideology in other cases...For instance, is Blasey-Ford for, against, or ambivalent, about whether Judge Kavanaugh is on the Supreme Court? To determine credibility, we can wonder what people might have to gain or lose when they make allegations decades after an alleged event. Maybe this is discussed later and been refuted, but does anybody know about the "counter-allegations" from Kavanaugh supporters that Blasey-Ford's parents were found wanting in a lawsuit that coincidentally involved Judge Kavanaugh involving some property in Maryland in the 90's? Not Judge Brett Kavanaugh, but his mother who was some kind of circuit judge at the time. I haven't been following as closely as I would if I weren't selling a house, buying a house 2,000 miles away, quitting a job, and trying to find a job. (Sorry for the personal stuff.) I dunno, maybe Blasey-Ford doesn't hate Pres. Trump and his nominee Brett Kavanaugh for their politics? Maybe, in principle, even though, she would be okay with a nominee for the Supreme Court who believed like Judge Kavanaugh, in conscience, after all these years, Blasey-Ford has now decided that he must be exposed as a sexual predator? Are the political views of the accuser in this instance, to be considered irrelevant to why she might make false accusations? I have heard that there are both personal and ideological reasons for why her allegations might be questioned.

Edited October 6, 2018 by 3DOP

[bsjkki]

17 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Well...you can follow the money...in many cases.

Or you can follow the ideology in other cases...For instance, is Blasey-Ford for, against, or ambivalent, about whether Judge Kavanaugh is on the Supreme Court? To determine credibility, we can wonder what people might have to gain or lose when they make allegations decades after an alleged event. Maybe this is discussed later and been refuted, but does anybody know about the "counter-allegations" from Kavanaugh supporters that Blasey-Ford's parents were found wanting in a lawsuit that coincidentally involved Judge Kavanaugh involving some property in Maryland in the 90's? Not Judge Brett Kavanaugh, but his mother who was some kind of circuit judge at the time. Again... I haven't been following as closely as I would if I weren't selling a house, buying a house 2,000 miles away, quitting a job, and trying to find a job. Sorry for the personal stuff. I dunno, maybe Blasey-Ford loves Pres. Trump and his nominee Brett Kavanugh for their politics. I have heard that there are both personal and ideological reasons for why her allegations might be questioned.

We were told not to bring Kavanaugh into this thread or it would be shut down. 

But, you do bring up examination of motives. Why would children lie? Why would a therapist manipulate children? What causes “ hysteria” to take hold and why would so many believe outlandish charges?

[3DOP]

17 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

We were told not to bring Kavanaugh into this thread or it would be shut down. 

But, you do bring up examination of motives. Why would children lie? Why would a therapist manipulate children? What causes “ hysteria” to take hold and why would so many believe outlandish charges?

Oh okay sorry. I only looked at the first two posts and it seemed like the Kavanaugh case would be illustrative...Just tonight, my wife was explaining to me about some old case in North Carolina where a guy who ran a day care in the 90's is still in jail because of the evidence of people who underwent therapy for what supposedly happened to them as two year olds. That is what prompted me to mention money. The political and possibly personal case (Kavanaugh/Blasey-Ford) was what prompted me to mention personal or ideological reasons for having reasonable doubts about allegations. You could say the same thing ideologically against those who accused President Clinton of wrong doing and trying to impeach him a few decades ago. To the degree that persons identify or "disidentify" with someone, allegations carry more or less weight. Like I tried to indicate...I have been a little out of the loop. I am not a big Trump guy or a big Kavanaugh guy. I don't see either of them destroying or resurrecting the country. I was trying to answer why we can't necessarily believe allegations of grave consequence without examinations of motives, like you said.

Anyway...No more Kavanaugh.

Edited October 6, 2018 by 3DOP

[Abulafia]

Have you read the witness testimony? Why on earth would children lie? Particularly when it's their own parent. They love their parents. They trust them. And remember,  whoever was involved in being interviewed by Snow, was there because suspicion had already been raised.  

As to the Miles being implicated, that would come only from the children of the 1st wife who actually have the memories of what allegedly happened to them.

[Calm]

Abulifia, have you studied the McMartin case?  

Have you sat with a young kid and made up a story with them, especially younger kids?  Seen how easily fantasy elements enter into their consciousness, including when told by other kids?

One October, my three year old son heard stories on TV about ghosts, his friends talked about ghosts, we even had some cute ghost decorations.  Telling him they were not real, they were just pretend was not something he could understand.  He couldn't sleep at night, ghosts were coming to eat him. He wasn't lying when he told us that.  We gave him the smallest ghost decoration which was a soft, silky, smiling, cute ghost, named it "Baby Ghost" and said allthe other ghosts loved Baby Ghost because everyone loves babies, and Baby Ghost loved him and therefore Baby Ghost wouldn't allow the others to hurt him.  He cuddled up and slept soundly for the rest of October and Baby Ghost was on the Shelf by Christmas.

------

Quote

remember,  whoever was involved in being interviewed by Snow, was there because suspicion had already been raised.  

And Snow cleared the two daughters of any symptoms of abuse.....until she heard that their babysitter was suspected in another case.

Then she reinterviewed (most likely asking leading questions, begging her to tell her the truth) the one daughter for a couple of hours until likely tired and confused about what was wanted, she finally came up with a claim about the babysitter.  The girl was then applauded for being brave and strong and the interviewing process started again, and more stuff appeared, and other kids got involved in group therapy where they could hear what each other was saying and see each other's pictures and were given medals and told they were heros...had a party to celebrate even. Of course the stories grew.  The kids weren't lying, they felt they were expected to say something and they wanted to make others happy and so they said what they thought people wanted to hear and they got a celebration.  What kid would not think their parents wanted them to tell stories, bigger, and bigger stories?

I don't think it was malicious, it just had a snowballing effect because of the expectations of two therapists (one the family matriarch trained in a highly questionable methodology that has been demonstrated to create the very symptoms (false memories) they think they are recovering. Iow, she had her hammer  (technique/theory of child sexual abuse) and everything was nails to her.  She was not alone as at that time there were a number of mental health and law enforcement officers who were buying this more or less pseudoscience.  In some places, allegations of these sex rings were attached to greater extremes of ritual abuse and the Satanic Panic was born.

-------

McMartin was easily spotted as a catastrophe in hindsight due to the impossible stories("In addition, Johnson---the original accuser--- also made several more accusations, including that people at the daycare had sexual encounters with animals, that "Peggy drilled a child under the arms" and "Ray flew in the air."[), but the police chose to send out a form letter to 200 parents informing them their children had been molested and detailed how and their snowball became an avalanche.

So as absurd as the first accusations were****, it still had a huge impact and took forever to resolve:  "Accusations were made in 1983. Arrests and the pretrial investigation ran from 1984 to 1987, and the trial ran from 1987 to 1990. After six years of criminal trials, no convictions were obtained, and all charges were dropped in 1990. When the trial ended in 1990, it had been the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history.[2] The case was part of day-care sex-abuse hysteria, a moral panic over alleged Satanic ritual abuse in the 1980s and early 1990s."

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This Bountiful incident, otoh, was kept in the possible range, if not actually probable.  I think the older age of the kids kept the fantasy elements more realistic. Or maybe the parents and therapists provided reassuring comfort dismissing the unrealistic ones...so that they weren't perpetuated and built upon instead of being celebrating  as brave Truth as the other claims were.

This participation in creating the allegations would placed parents and therapists in a difficult situation for self critiquing on the probability of the accusations...they were so committed to supporting the children, it might have felt like a major betrayal if they ever stopped to question.  Plus what would that mean about all the pain and damage the kids suffer...it would have largely been inflicted by them and on a wider range of innocents than just their own families.  I can imagine being overwhelmed by panic if there was every any inkling of doubt and needing to force that away in order to survive mentally and emotionally intact. 

 The combination of paternal love and fear for your child is a very potentially dangerous mix.

--------

****https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

The original McM accuser apparently had acute paranoid schizophrenia and was dead from chronic alcoholism before even the prelim hearing.  Prosecution was still driving it, for some reason, using unethical tactics, for 5 more years.

In the first of the Bountiful cases, Smith said their first success in the one case of a father getting convicted was the result of high powered attorneys being brought in by well off parents, attorneys who benefit the more complicated the case.  If I understand correctly, they already had the one accusation in a closeby neighbourhood where children from both knew each other and likely would have talked.  It was not an independent accusation in that sense,reactions to the first case drove much of the second investigation.

In the Mileses case, the parents' of the alleged victims refused to let the children testify.  Without that, the rest of the case was weak and could not proceed.

Got to stop to let my meds lull me to sleep...

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

Calm, that is another case entirely and much of the children's evidence doesn't come from Snow. I think that's an important point to remember in this particular case.

 

Danzo. Neal A Maxwell appears to have believed the children according to Mother 1.

See point 20.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

Quote

that is another case entirely and much of the children's evidence doesn't come from Snow. I think that's an important point to remember in this particular case.

Unless I am very confused, the way Smith described it, there was a lot of overlap with the two sets of accused neighbours living close together (perhaps same school as I got the impression the kids involved knew each other, though not same ward), one happening shortly after the other, one involving relatives of Pres. Hinckley, the other the Mileses.

Are you saying in the first case the evidence didn't come from Snow or in the second case?  Marion Smith describes in the case where the Mileses eventually get pulled into, Snow diagnosed the two girls as abuse free, healthy, well adjusted, good grades...until she hears their babysitter is implicated.  Then she pulls one girl in and sticks with her for hours till she 'admits' she has been abuse, and then pulls in the other kids, crossexamining them.  Smith sees the agitation of even the infant in the waiting room of evidence the kids knew all about the abuse even if buried, there is no hint that they are picking up on the nerves of the adults or being frustrated in being confined and knowing their sibling is afraid and hurting.

A timeline would be helpful as Smith's writing jumps around at time, though she provides dates.

 is there one provided?

-----

If you mean the abuse accusations of Carstensen's second marriage, my understanding is there is no claimed involvement of the Mileses in that case.  I may have missed it, since it was the stepchildren's reports I read two, three days ago.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am only focused on the current lawsuit and not everything involving Bullock and others.  That only provides context as far as I am concerned.

I am not sure how it is claimed the Mileses are at fault for the abuse of the step children, I believe the claim is they were somehow involved in a coverup (main evidence being from what I read based on Smith's and others' disappointment in how Church leaders weren't responding as they thought they should, and nothing that shows actual communication or conspiracy beyond why wouldn't they tell me stuff I wanted to know even if it was confidential for someone else's membership/relationship).  The most memorable part of that section is her impression that the mood switched when Elder Nelson came to visit his daughter and was sitting by her in SM.  Otoh, he could have to support his daughter going through a traumatic time (Marion Smith was supporting her daughter, is that somehow appropriate for her but not appropriate for church apostles to do?) showing up after the council meetings if there were any were over  and the direction to step back was decided based on the fact the police were involved and therefore it was time to let the police investigation proceed with Church leaders not getting in their way, avoiding possibly influencing witnesses if they were to talk about it in detail.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

I missed this earlier:

Quote

6 victims who never saw justice from the police or the church.

The parents decided not to let their children testify.

Without their testimony, even if there is evidence of abuse, how can it be tied to a particular person?

Hardly surprising the prosecutors decided the evidence was insufficient against the father in the first case.  In the second case, when a step father and it appears there is stronger physical evidence, he committed suicide and I assume that was accepted as an admission of guilt by investigators and case was closed.

So without more details, I don't see a lot of reason to blame the police if parents were hamstringing them.

----

Justice from the Church....not sure what is wanted here.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Quote

But I can assure you that sex rings do occur. People with the same proclivities tend to be drawn to each other, and they commit and ask children to commit vile and terrible acts..They photograph them and videotape them. 

And what are the typical characteristics of these and the people involved, how are they discovered, how to the children talk about their experiences in them?

 

[changed]

14 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think you have pinpointed the problem. People think that church membership is a protection and a sanctuary. It is more of a hospital than a sanctuary.   The church is not designed to be a protection against criminal acts.  We don't have security personal at our ward buildings, we don't vet people who want to attend and worship and we don't have any investigative force. 

There is nothing at the church that keeps bad people away. If anything, we are commanded in the scriptures to invite bad people to come to church with us. 

Every week in our ward we have someone sitting so they can watch the hall and see who comes in, but we are not trained police officers.  We have a bathroom that is marked for children only, but what if the children are the ones doing the abuse (Quite common statistically).  I am not going into the bathroom with them. 

I try to teach our children to watch out for people (even church members) doing things that are wrong. We try and monitor them, but me and my wife know that there is always a risk. we can work to mitigate it, but we will never eliminate it. (and we have discussed this often as she unfortunately experienced abuse as a child)

 

the church teaches over and over and over again things like: https://www.lds.org/search?q=protection&lang=eng&domains=general-conference

• prayer will be a protection
• going to the temple will be a protection
• keeping covenants will be a protection
• reading scriptures will be a protection

I have not found that to be the case.

People also expect that those who have temple recommends and leadership callings are safe and honorable people... that is also not the case.

Edited October 6, 2018 by changed

[Calm]

Quote

Please, please, let's not blame the second wife.  What was she to do in the circumstance but believe and trust the civic and religious system that was set up to protect her and her children?

I am not intending to blame the second wife, but just making an observation that there are other approaches.  My first was born early 80s, second early 90s.  I encountered at least 5 child s-x abuse cases during that time period, from a stranger abducting my boss's child, to young relatives being abused by their father and molested by stepbrothers, to an uncle being discovered as r-ping his own adopted children and likely abuse many more of the extended family children.  I had a sibling who went to a recovered memories specialist who called me to ask if it was possible that Dad abused her.  My first reaction was not shock or denial, but clinical.  By that time I had seen in my psych studies and among family and community to know well enough no one is automatically off limits for being a predator unless they are in a coma.  So I took what I knew of likely opportunities for abuse and eliminated most possibilities simply because no doors were locked in our house except for when Mom and Dad were asleep and kids were never allow in their room at that time (I come by my sleep disorders genetically both sides).  And due to my own sleep issues, I would often get up, especially during holidays, and prowl the house in the dark, even sometimes sitting outside Mom and Dad's room hoping I would hear them getting up so I could say something.  Never saw Dad, once he was out, he was out.  Mom got up to exercise when she couldn't sleep, but she would go downstairs.  Kids were not checked on at night but assumed to be asleep.  The only other option was when Mom was ill and Dad took over baby care.  Since I was 7 years older than the next youngest, Dad would pull us older kids in to help and train so he could stop doing it as quickly as possible.  I have even run the same kind of appraisals on pretty much everyone in my family, immediate and extended, to see if there are any red flags.

I go into this detail on my approach to show that even though I was born and raised in the Church, in a home that was quite traditional in terms of authority, it never once occurred to me to take into account either my relatives and friends' standing in their civic or religious community, but I only relied on behaviour of the individual that I could observe, knew firsthand.  Why would I imagine the Church or government would know my husband, father, son, sisters, mother, aunts and uncles, etc better than I knew them myself.

If an exwife or anyone made an accusation against any of my relatives, I would be watching them like a warden, tracking every move I could.  We took several young men and women into our homes and while a few were from troubled homes, one abused by a parent (over 18, needed a safe place away from that parent), I made sure none were ever left alone with my daughter or son (until they were old and big enough to defend themselves and understood the implications of such behaviour, though doors were required to be left open).

I just don't get why anyone would think that someone outside your home can know better, predict better what happens within it.  I get not wanting to look at loved ones that way out of fear of it tainting relationships, that it somehow means there is a lack of trust, but to me that seems a form of blind trust to refuse to even consider.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, Abulafia said:

And goodness, there should never be a statute of limitations on child abuse. There isn't one here in the UK. Thank God. Children can often take years to come forward.

And sometimes it takes them years to come forward - not because they were actually abused - but because they have been convinced by their so-called therapist that they were abused. 

Our memories are much more malleable and unreliable than most people are willing to admit. That is a big reason why accusations of decades old abuse, absent any other independent, corroborating evidence, are deeply problematic. 

 

[Abulafia]

22 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And sometimes it takes them years to come forward - not because they were actually abused - but because they have been convinced by their so-called therapist that they were abused. 

Our memories are much more malleable and unreliable than most people are willing to admit. That is a big reason why accusations of decades old abuse, absent any other independent, corroborating evidence, are deeply problematic. 

 

As I understand it, false accusations (of child abuse) are rare.  But let me go see if I can back that up.  

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

As I understand it, false accusations (of child abuse) are rare.  But let me go see if I can back that up.  

Intentional false accusations, not necessarily mistakes.  Be sure and get the right stat as they can be confused.  They also don't count unsubstantiated accusations usually in with false accusations, but that means they can't tell if accurate or mistaken.

There is also the problem of how to measure partially true accusations.

And best to use numbers as for many 1% is seen as common since to be falsely accused of child abuse is so horrific.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calm

[Judd]

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

As I understand it, false accusations (of child abuse) are rare.  But let me go see if I can back that up.  

Are you saying you’re going to look at the literature to see what it says, or you are looking at the literature to validate your statement? Two very different things.

[Abulafia]

20 minutes ago, Judd said:

Are you saying you’re going to look at the literature to see what it says, or you are looking at the literature to validate your statement? Two very different things.

I did some post grad stuff on this and am working from my memory. 

[alter idem]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Have you read the witness testimony? Why on earth would children lie? Particularly when it's their own parent. They love their parents. They trust them. And remember,  whoever was involved in being interviewed by Snow, was there because suspicion had already been raised.  

As to the Miles being implicated, that would come only from the children of the 1st wife who actually have the memories of what allegedly happened to them.

'Why on earth would children lie?"  We already know the answer.  They lie because a harmful, terrible therapist influenced and coerced them through leading and manipulative questions to come up with all kinds of false and fanciful stories.  This happened back in the 80's and 90's, it's well known and documented and the Miles' are one of the families who this happened to.  

It isn't hard to do this either, you can make people believe all kinds of false things, by implanting memories and using certain techniques.  The question you should be asking is why this therapist would want to fan the flames that destroyed so many lives?  What was wrong with her that she used her influence in such a way?

[alter idem]

19 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Cinepro. I know he was never charged with any crimes. The Bountiful police weren't interested in pursuing the allegations. See my note above

"The Bountiful police, after interviewing ... ...and ........,showed no interest
in pursuing the allegations"

I'm baffled at the police response and the church response.  

 

But who made the assessment that the Bountiful police 'weren't interested' or 'showed no interest' in pursuing allegations?  Who wrote that?  Someone who believes the therapist--that the Miles's are guilty?  Someone who refuses to recognize that the police have to actually have evidence of a crime before they can consider criminal charges?  More likely from what I've read, the Bountiful police could find no credible evidence to pursue the case.  

This therapist's efforts brought about outlandish, unsubstantiated accusations against a lot of likely innocent people, yet the one person who may have been guilty went free.  How does someone mess things up to that degree? 

 

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Have you read the witness testimony? Why on earth would children lie? 

I hate to be the one to break it to you but children lie.

ALL.

THE .

TIME.