Lawsuit Re: Sex Abuse Allegations Against Daughter of Pres. Nelson and Her Husband

[Tacenda]

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit-alleging-sex-abuse-cover-up-filed-against-family-of-lds-church-president/

There is a woman speaking out against the Miles but her identity is concealed.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

Is this correct grammar? Scott?

Don't listen to @Scott Lloyd. He follows the AP style guide which doesn't use the Oxford comma. Obviously his mind is deranged  

Edited October 4, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/937745/Inmate-is-still-adamant-abuse-conviction-off-base.html

 

I remember the child/daycare sex abuse craziness of the 80's as that is when I first became a mother and it scared me to death! I think it was 20/20 that later did a story that illustrated how easy it was to guide a child's thoughts into thinking that something had happened to them that did not, or plant any type of a false memory in them. The false memory becomes imbedded in them. Absolutely frightening and often stemmed from well meaning adults trying to help children admit that they had been abused (when they may or may not have been).

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

An investigation is not a conclusion of guilt.

Didn't say it was, but it is often a speculation of guilt.  Guilt is assumed in the sense of theories and then evidence collected to support that theory.  If not enough evidence exists or contradictory evidence is found, other theories of guilt are explored.

 

[changed]

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit-alleging-sex-abuse-cover-up-filed-against-family-of-lds-church-president/amp/

Am I getting this right,

- Six people filing a lawsuit.  .... in the mouth of two, or three, or six witnesses?

- involves two other people who committed suicide (why did they kill themselves??)  

• 16-year-old babysitter was both a victim and perpetrator of abuse (who later committed suicide)
• stepfather killed himself when police sought to arrest him

People do not just kill themselves for no good reason??? 

This is what is going around right now - trigger warning. http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no80.htm 60+ victims 

Edited October 4, 2018 by changed

[carbon dioxide]

The new world we live in where people can simply make allegations that are older than Rambo movies and they need to be believed.  This is why the Church needs to not settle these lawsuits but fight them.  Setting only encourages more allegations.  Everyone wants an easy payday.  Perhaps one way to lower these cases is a law that requires all winners of settlements and lawsuits to give 100% of the money to charity. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Exiled]

31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The new world we live in where people can simply make allegations that are older than Rambo movies and they need to be believed.

This might be Mr. Vernon's strategy - to take advantage of the me too movement. I haven't had a chance to digest this case but I remember the McMartin case well and the Bountiful scare in the 80's. Believing allegations and not challenging them seems to be what some want. However, we can't just believe people merely because they say something. I have two clients right now that are victims of invented domestic violence stories. The stories were invented to get an advantage in family cases and unfortunately the strategy worked for a while until we were able to get the truth out.

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

On the floor laughing. The accusations are credible if I am blind, deaf, and dumb and only then. Let's stop with the propaganda. Yes, he attempted to rape me when I was 15, no 18, no, well I cannot remember. Well, it was very close to the club. Well, not really close. Well, it was between my house and the club. There were four guys that raped me. Well, no it was two, Well, no it was really three guys and another girl. However, NO ONE can who was supped to be in attendance to the party can support her claims. I can draw a floor plan of the house, but I just cannot tell you which house I went to. I remember this perfectly, except I don't know when, I don't know with whom, and I don't know where.  Yes, really - they are credible to only those who ignore the facts. 

His story is full of holes.  Ford took a polygraph.  Kavanaugh would not.  Yes, the accusations are credible.  

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Don't listen to @Scott Lloyd. He follows the AP style guide which doesn't use the Oxford comma. Obviously his mind is deranged  

Now I'm retired, I can follow any darn style guide I want. (Tough to break old habits, though.) 😉

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

Is this correct grammar? Scott?

Yeah.

It's like Joneses, as in "Keeping up with the ..."

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I have two clients right now that are victims of invented domestic violence stories. The stories were invented to get an advantage in family cases and unfortunately the strategy worked for a while until we were able to get the truth out.

I worked with a man last year, a top bloke, who went through a hellishly messy divorce right before starting in the neighbouring office. When it had started to become clear to his wife that she wasn't going to get sole custody of their three girls, she informed the police that the father had been sexually abusing all three of them. A--- said it was literally the worst period of his entire life and eclipsed all the other facets of the divorce added together and multiplied by ten.

The girls had made it clear in one-on-one interviews with authorities that the claims were wholesale lies, but of course there still needed to be a thorough investigation. This turned up zero evidence, but during the months it took, this man had no unsupervised access to his children, and everyone in his parish started treating him like a pariah. (The mother was still attending the same parish and telling everyone that he was a monster and a paedophile.)

A--- was told by the police that this is a rather common phenomenon, unfortunately, but it nearly destroyed him, and he said he reached a point where he was seriously considering suicide.  Awful stuff.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Didn't say it was, but it is often a speculation of guilt.  Guilt is assumed in the sense of theories and then evidence collected to support that theory.  If not enough evidence exists or contradictory evidence is found, other theories of guilt are explored.

 

An investigation is an inquiry. An inquiry is not an assumption of guilt.

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Is there any evidence of the plaintiffs going after the father of the plaintiffs first, especially given the allegation he abused additional children where the Miles were not involved?  If not, the timing ( three days before conference) and the claim of coverup by the Church is problematic for me.  Justice seems better served by establishing the most likely crimes first as well as demonstrating a possible reason for a coverup. If that can be demonstrated, then take it to the next step.

Otherwise it looks like an attempt to get the Church to pay up to make it go away at this point.

The timing so close to conference is either coincidental or was orchestrated for maximum publicity.  I don't believe in coincidences.   I also find it troubling that names were not redacted in the press releases and reporting.  These people will be tried in the court of public opinion long before any legal decisions are made.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit-alleging-sex-abuse-cover-up-filed-against-family-of-lds-church-president/

There is a woman speaking out against the Miles but her identity is concealed.

FYI, Tacenda's link includes a PDF of the suit, which I am assuming is the same as the Microsoft doc Abulifia linked to.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The timing so close to conference is either coincidental or was orchestrated for maximum publicity.  I don't believe in coincidences.   I also find it troubling that names were not redacted in the press releases and reporting.  These people will be tried in the court of public opinion long before any legal decisions are made.

It was their lawyer's decision, .I believe.  Perhaps they are hoping the moral outrage connected to Snow's techniques combined with the evidence of the law enforcement involved in this and other of her cases will win out.  Perhaps they are hoping this will finally get Snow shut down.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calm

[Exiled]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I worked with a man last year, a top bloke, who went through a hellishly messy divorce right before starting in the neighbouring office. When it had started to become clear to his wife that she wasn't going to get sole custody of their three girls, she informed the police that the father had been sexually abusing all three of them. A--- said it was literally the worst period of his entire life and eclipsed all the other facets of the divorce added together and multiplied by ten.

The girls had made it clear in one-on-one interviews with authorities that the claims were wholesale lies, but of course there still needed to be a thorough investigation. This turned up zero evidence, but during the months it took, this man had no unsupervised access to his children, and everyone in his parish started treating him like a pariah. (The mother was still attending the same parish and telling everyone that he was a monster and a paedophile.)

A--- was told by the police that this is a rather common phenomenon, unfortunately, but it nearly destroyed him, and he said he reached a point where he was seriously considering suicide.  Awful stuff.

This is why we should be careful in these cases. Abuse unfortunately happens but the accused should be afforded at least a presumption of innocence. Also, late recollections are problematic as many have said. Even so, that doesn't mean abuse didn't happen. But mere allegations doesn't make the case either and memories can fade and tramatic memories can never be forgotten sometimes.  I wonder what evidence Mr. Vernon has? Is this just a case where he wants to use a dead man and a popular family as proof of the abuse that impliedly happened? I hope not. I've read the complaint but haven't read the companion affidavits or the motion to dismiss. I am interested in how Mr. Vernon will oppose the motion.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Exiled said:

This might be Mr. Vernon's strategy - to take advantage of the me too movement. I haven't had a chance to digest this case but I remember the McMartin case well and the Bountiful scare in the 80's. Believing allegations and not challenging them seems to be what some want. However, we can't just believe people merely because they say something. I have two clients right now that are victims of invented domestic violence stories. The stories were invented to get an advantage in family cases and unfortunately the strategy worked for a while until we were able to get the truth out.

This is possibly the Bountiful scare you are thinking of.  Iirc, Snow (the therapist who made her name with this stuff) set off two cases of accusations of sex rings in Bountiful ( and two in Lehi and one in another place).  Reading the various cases (I provided links to some of the stuff .I found on Snow) is very disturbing in that it is quite possible she contributed to two suicides as well as false imprisonment over a decade (my memory says 18 years, but I may be off).

[Calm]

17 hours ago, changed said:

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit-alleging-sex-abuse-cover-up-filed-against-family-of-lds-church-president/amp/

Am I getting this right,

- Six people filing a lawsuit.  .... in the mouth of two, or three, or six witnesses?

- involves two other people who committed suicide (why did they kill themselves??)  

• 16-year-old babysitter was both a victim and perpetrator of abuse (who later committed suicide)
• stepfather killed himself when police sought to arrest him

People do not just kill themselves for no good reason??? 

This is what is going around right now - trigger warning. http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no80.htm 60+ victims 

Read the links .I provided for Barbara Snow's history.  If all six were treated by Snow, there is a very good chance their testimony was tainted by her.  And if a young woman is accused of being an abuser and a father's relationship with his family destroyed by horrific false accusations...suicide becomes unfortunately understandable imo. (Add-on:  in this case it appears at least some of the accusations against the father were true as the lawsuit includes a medical record with notes on him admitting with one doctor apparently, another who likely first diagnosed him with pedophilia wrote he said he didn't remember, if I read the second one's correctly, he admitted some to them.  The timing of his suicide if I understand correctly was prior to his being brought in for questioning for the investigation of abuse of his stepchildren.)

trigger warning as well, deals with the Satanic Panic, what triggered it and how it became discredited:

https://psmag.com/social-justice/make-a-cross-with-your-fingers-its-the-satanic-panic

Essential reading for anyone concerned with the abuse panics of the 80s and 90s:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_rep03.htm

Quote

Lanning began working in the field in 1981. Allegations of ritual abuse began to surface circa 1983. At first, he tended to believe that the abuse really occurred. He reported:

"But the number of alleged cases began to grow and grow. We now have hundreds of victims alleging that thousands of offenders are abusing and even murdering tens of thousands of people as part of organized satanic cults, and there is little or no corroborative evidence. The very reason many "experts" cite for believing these allegations (i.e. many victims, who never met each other, reporting the same events), is the primary reason I began to question at least some aspects of these allegations."

Lanning defines a satanic murder as "one committed by two or more individuals who rationally plan the crime and whose primary motivation is to fulfill a prescribed satanic ritual calling for the murder." Using this definition he has been unable to identify even one documented satanic murder in the United States.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Didn't say it was, but it is often a speculation of guilt.  Guilt is assumed in the sense of theories and then evidence collected to support that theory.  If not enough evidence exists or contradictory evidence is found, other theories of guilt are explored.

 

This does not seem correct to me. An investigation is the result of an accusation - guilt or innocence of the accused does not really play into it yet. It seems that if your proposal is accurate, then the police would first be looking for guilty people without an accusation being made. I think as an investigation continues it would seem normal that officers begin to make assumptions of guilt or innocence and either push forward or not. Somewhere in there is a discussion between the prosecutor and the police based on the evidence discovered. The prosecutor is the decision maker to move forward, based on the evidence, or stop or find more evidence. 

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

FYI, Tacenda's link includes a PDF of the suit, which I am assuming is the same as the Microsoft doc Abulifia linked to.

Yeah. It was. Thanks Calm. 

[Abulafia]

I don't doubt at all that all the kids were horrifically  sexually abused by the father. Some have had to have surgeries to correct the damage. 

These aren't false claims of abuse. There's too much evidence. Including the involvement and blessings given by high ranking apostles. 

I think the issue is whether that abuse included the Miles as well as the perpetrator [the children's father and step father] grandmother, and others including a babysitter. 

They do need justice.  The second wife has an incredibly troubling story..the lack of punishment of her 2nd husband [the perpetrator] led her to marry him and put her own kids in danger.

She was told he was innocent. It was all lies and she only began to suspect when the church didn't follow proper protocol for the cancellation of the sealing of the First wife. (The 2nd wife worked for the church).

 

(All this info is in the suit)

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

Quote

There's too much evidence. Including the involvement and blessings given by high ranking apostles. 

CFR please, what is the evidence that was ignored by those law agencies that said there wasn't any (save for insufficient against the father)?

Quote

Investigators at the city and county level at the time found no evidence of a Bountiful s-x abuse ring allegedly involving the Mileses. A state investigation also found no evidence to corroborate more than 220 claims of ritual s-x abuse in Utah that mirrored a national trend of accusations later attributed to the counseling techniques of recovered-memory therapy, a practice now widely rejected by research psychologists because of the possibility of planted memories.

David Jordan, an attorney assisting the church in this matter, provided declarations under oath from the lead investigators and prosecutors who examined claims of two alleged s-x rings in the Mueller Park neighborhood in Bountiful. They say church officials did not try to shape the investigation.

"No one from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attempted to influence or interfere with our investigation in any way," said Michael George in one of the declarations. George was the investigator for the Salt Lake County Attorney’s Office assigned to the case at the time. The statement was dated Sept. 19, 2018, a copy of which was reviewed by the Deseret News.

George also addressed the "touching parties."

"We did not find evidence of a child s-x abuse ring," he said.

The Deseret News has reviewed all four declarations.

Then-Bountiful Police Det. Diana Stevens said no church officials attempted to interfere with the criminal investigations.

Brian Namba, the Davis County deputy attorney, said no church representative "attempted to limit or interfere with the county's investigation or prosecutorial decisions."

George, the Salt Lake County investigator, and Leslie Lewis, a deputy in the Salt Lake County Attorney’s office at the time and a future Third District Court judge, also said no church officials attempted to influence their work.

George said they found no evidence of a child s-x abuse ring in the investigation involving the Mileses. The declarations made by him and Lewis indicated that when they sifted the evidence in their investigation of the plaintiffs' father's conduct with his children, it left questions but was insufficient for prosecution.

"The evidence concerning (the plaintiffs' father) was conflicting and inconclusive and, ultimately, the Salt Lake County Attorney’s Office determined not to prosecute him," George wrote.

Lewis added, "Our investigation did not uncover sufficient evidence to warrant charges against (the plaintiffs' father)." Lewis signed her written declaration on Friday.

Not just claims, but confirmations of claims.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Quote

Three children allege in signed exhibits that they remember being sexually assaulted in the touching parties by their father, their paternal grandmother, the Mileses, a teenage babysitter and numerous others.

Numerous others claimed to be involved, yet three agencies found no evidence for a s-x ring.

Otoh, we have a therapist well known to use aggressive methods by her own description to 'recover' memories with former patients claiming she threatened them unless they gave the answers she wanted, evidence of four cases where claims being made were pretty much identical, and who was put on probation for her unprofessional actions (she didn't take notes or record sessions among other things, even when directed to by law enforcement).

Snow's involvement taints the whole investigation.  While it is possible there was actual abuse involved, I am not sure how one could untangle the actual from the fictional since the person who should have been keeping records for some reason did not, so there is no way to compare actual statements pre and post treatment.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calm

[changed]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Read the links .I provided for Barbara Snow's history.  If all six were treated by Snow, there is a very good chance their testimony was tainted by her.  And if a young woman is accused of being an abuser and a father's relationship with his family destroyed by horrific false accusations...suicide becomes unfortunately understandable imo.

trigger warning as well, deals with the Satanic Panic, what triggered it and how it became discredited:

https://psmag.com/social-justice/make-a-cross-with-your-fingers-its-the-satanic-panic

Essential reading for anyone concerned with the abuse panics of the 80s and 90s:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_rep03.htm

 

 

It is not just Dr. Snow  (trigger warning)

http://www.restoreourhumanity.org/files/ABlipHere.pdf

Dr. Stout, Dr. Mason Redd, Dr. Martin Palmer, Dr. Paul Whitehead, Dr. Joanna McManimen, Dr. Carlos Roby, Dr. Donald Doty, 

Edited October 4, 2018 by changed

[Abulafia]

Calm, I'm not talking about a sex ring. I am saying that the medical evidence pretty much proves these kids were assaulted by the perpetrator  [their father and step father in the case of his 2nd marriage]. 

Whether the Miles were involved or not. These kids were abused by the father and that abuse was ignored and covered up.