Sam Young is Excommunicated

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Often, the extreme left and the extreme right end up being quite similar in their thought and behavior patterns. Hence the similarity in totalitarian regimes, be they facist or communist.

It's fun to label people, isn't it.  Makes it so much easier to validate one's opinions.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, YJacket said:

???? I haven't said that and I don't think Smac thinks that.  I think Smac places too much emphasis on what current leadership says vs. testing what leadership says to scripture. I think too many members of the Church simply do not really take the time to honestly determine if the GAs words follow scripture.  I think Smac places maybe not enough emphasis on gaining our own light-but GA's "infallible" nope.

Not every post is about you.

 

[YJacket]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not every post is about you.

 

Fair enough-it might do well then to specify who you are speaking about rather than leave it ambiguous-especially when the majority of the most recent conversation with him has been mostly between him and me, thinking that you were referring to me is a very logical conclusion.

Edited September 24, 2018 by YJacket

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, YJacket said:

Hmm . . .very interesting Scott, instead of addressing the scriptures I have quoted you instead liken me to "totalitarian" regimes.  I am frustrated that one cannot have a civil discussion without being compared to a facist or communist . . . but that's okay-I'm trying to exercise patience and not get upset and forgiveness.

I would rather discuss the merits of the argument rather than throwing around terms which are meant to incite certain feelings. . . 

 

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It's fun to label people, isn't it.  Makes it so much easier to validate one's opinions.

It can be fun to be passive-aggressive. You can feel so ... virtuous while doing it.

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

It can be fun to be passive-aggressive. You can feel so ... virtuous while doing it.

That wasn't passive-aggressive, it was a rather direct criticism of your comment.

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, YJacket said:

And the official church position is only such since about 1994, with no new revelation or addition of scripture, prior to that SSA was clearly recognized as a sin. 

Yes from the Bible absolutely, so what if DC, BoM, PoGP are silent on it. PoGP is silent on many things, so is DC.  To disregard the OT and NT on this b/c it isn't specifically mentioned in the restored scripture is a little extreme.  I'll give you 5 scriptures, it's not even a stretch-it's plan as day.

Romans 1:26

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet

Bold: action not an unbidden thought or feeling.

Quote

Corinthians 1:6

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Action.  

Quote

Matthew 19

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

⁵ And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

⁶ Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

(Sidenote, I do find it strange you are hung up on divorce yet ignore Christ's commandment that man shall cleave to his wife-not his other man, two homosexuals cannot be one flesh-it is physically impossible)

Many members who experience same sex attraction keep this commandment faithfully.  Action.  

Quote

Leviticus 18:22

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

²³ Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Action

Quote

Leviticus 20:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Action.  

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

Smac, I will let Christ and God be the judge of being blinded . . . however, I believe many members of the Church are.  They are deeply confused and blinded.  We never think we are blinded when we are blinded.  The nature of human beings doesn't change, that nature has been the same from the beginning of time.  There is no "new" problem that has only occurred in the last 50 years with regards to homosexuality.  However, because we are modern, we fancy ourselves as more enlightened, we fancy that we have so much more technology and so much more science that we understand the nature of human beings much better . . .it is a fallacy and a belief in a false God, worshiping at the alter of man.

To the bold . . .and thus we see how the Devil gets his hooks into the membership and thus how members become blinded.

"Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny."

We can control our thoughts, we can control our feelings.

Can you show me where this is in the Word of God?  You wouldn't be mingling the philosophies of men with your scripture would you?

Quote

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I love Christ's wording here.  He who is angry is in danger of judgment.  Christ doesn't say that he shall be judged just for being angry.    

Quote

Proverbs 16:32

Whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

Slow to anger is very different than never feels anger.  

Quote

We can agree that Christ commands us to control our tempers, to control our feelings of anger.  Why are some feelings more special than other feelings? We recognize that to feel unjustified anger at a brother is sinful.  We recognize that when we are driving down the freeway and someone cuts us off we should be slow to be angry, we recognize that we can in fact slowly over time modify our feelings such as anger, guilt, sadness, etc.  So why can those who have homosexual feelings not do the same?  Why is there this special class of individuals called "homosexuals" who have license to feel sexual feelings for those they shouldn't?  It is because we are blinded, we have become enticed by the sophistry of man and instead of holding fast to God's Word we look to man to save us.

I absolutely cannot agree to your comment in bold above.  He commands us to control our responses to our feelings.  Feelings are not chosen.  Sin is about actions that we choose.  I do not believe that sin can be committed in ignorance. 

Quote

We all recognize that to feel sexual urges for a 5 year old is morally repugnant, yet again if what you and others claim is true, it should not be morally repugnant.  There is certainly a difference between a thought/feeling and an act.

Yet we do well to remember Alma 12:

14 For our ^awords will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the ^bmountains to fall upon us to ^chide us from his presence.

Indeed.  We are all condemned, we are not capable of any good work.   

I think that you describe a very warped and unhealthy view of sexuality that is not supported by scripture.  You may think that your interpretation of certain scriptures is in line with your distorted view, but that interpretation is not supported by the actual texts you cite.  

31 minutes ago, YJacket said:

Hmm . . .very interesting Scott, instead of addressing the scriptures I have quoted you instead liken me to "totalitarian" regimes.  I am frustrated that one cannot have a civil discussion without being compared to a facist or communist . . . but that's okay-I'm trying to exercise patience and not get upset and forgiveness.

And yet when you are called on your language, your response is "the wicked take the truth to be hard." 

Quote

I would rather discuss the merits of the argument rather than throwing around terms which are meant to incite certain feelings. . . 

Please do.  Let's actually discuss the argument rather than call anyone who disagrees with you blinded.  That word is meant to incite certain feelings.  

Edited September 24, 2018 by kllindley

[YJacket]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

Please do.  Let's actually discuss the argument rather than call anyone who disagrees with you blinded.  That word is meant to incite certain feelings.  

I choose not to engage with you. Clearly one can not have a rational discussion with another human being who likens "the wicked taketh the truth to be hard" and words such as "blinded" to words such as "totalitarian regimes", "fascism" and "communism" and claim that those sets of words have even close to the same level of incitement. Because clearly state-run ideologies which have resulted in the actual death of conservatively 100 million people is on the same level as discussing wickedness with regards to sexual deviancy.

Nope, no thank you, I choose not to engage with individuals who can not make that distinction.  Good day.

Edited September 25, 2018 by YJacket

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

I choose not to engage with you. Clearly one can not have a rational discussion with another human being who likens "the wicked taketh the truth to be hard" and words such as "blinded" to words such as "totalitarian regimes", "fascism" and "communism" and claim that those sets of words have even close to the same level of incitement. Because clearly state-run ideologies which have resulted in the actual death of conservatively 100 million people is on the same level as discussing wickedness with regards to sexual deviancy.

Nope, no thank you, I choose not to engage with individuals who can not make that distinction.  Good day.

It’s too bad you’re refusing to listen to kllindley.  He’s lived the topic you claim to know everything about and has more insight on it than any scripture you’ll read from the Bible, IMO.  He’s someone who could teach you much, if you’d just listen.

Edited September 25, 2018 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

I choose not to engage with you. Clearly one can not have a rational discussion with another human being who likens "the wicked taketh the truth to be hard" and words such as "blinded" to words such as "totalitarian regimes", "fascism" and "communism" and claim that those sets of words have even close to the same level of incitement. Because clearly state-run ideologies which have resulted in the actual death of conservatively 100 million people is on the same level as discussing wickedness with regards to sexual deviancy.

Nope, no thank you, I choose not to engage with individuals who can not make that distinction.  Good day.

I'm afraid you are fussing at kllindley for some things I said. No need for that. You can go ahead and confront me over them. I can take it.

 

[YJacket]

31 minutes ago, JulieM said:

It’s too bad you’re refusing to listen to kllindley.  He’s lived the topic you claim to know everything about and has more insight on it than any scripture you’ll read from the Bible, IMO.  He’s someone who could teach you much, if you’d just listen.

I have never claimed to know everything about it.  No, he can not teach me much, b/c an individual who uses another individuals claim about fascism, totalitarianism and communism in comparison with sexual sin in order to denigrate my words, I will not have anything to do with.

Now, if he were to recant that aspect and admit that he was simply trying to score points based upon hyperbole-or even simply apologize, then I would reconsider his character and would reconsider that there might be something to be gained.

[YJacket]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm afraid you are fussing at kllindley for some things I said. No need for that. You can go ahead and confront me over them. I can take it.

 

He used your words in order to attempt to score points (or at the very least denigrate my comments), regardless of whether or not they were his words or not, he used them as a boomerang. I will not engage with individuals who do that on a very, very serious topic.  But I do appreciate you owning your words-thank you.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, YJacket said:

He used your words in order to attempt to score points (or at the very least denigrate my comments), regardless of whether or not they were his words or not, he used them as a boomerang. I will not engage with individuals who do that on a very, very serious topic.  But I do appreciate you owning your words-thank you.

I think it was the other way around.

 

[changed]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Well, we don't actually know how many people God has sent prophets too.  

But, I think I understand what you are saying and it's a good question. I think we can learn a lot about that question by reading Jacob 5.  We're all planted in different spots in the vineyard.  Some spots are 'good' and some are 'poor' but the Lord specifically says that He has his reasons for planting in poor soil, even if we don't understand it.  We can also learn from Jacob 5 that the spot where you are planted has no bearing on the amount of good fruit that you can produce.  Trees in poor soil can produce a large yield of fruit while trees in good soil can yield no useable fruit.   We are each responsible for the knowledge that we are given, and we can do much with what we are given, even if it's less than what others have.  God has His reasons for treating us differently.

 

 

Well, I was planted in... mixed soil... I have a view of the good soil, but am not planted in it.  Do you think sometimes people grow better out of the church than in it?  

 

Sam Young's most recent fb post:

**Top Tier Media**

The Church meant to force me into silence. Instead, it gave me a megaphone. It will be used loud and long and strong.

Our cause has now made it to the top tier media with this great article by CNN. More is coming!!!

I now believe the Stake President was divinely inspired to excommunicate me. God wants children protected. This action has paved the way for a huge boost in awareness.

Thank you President. At my tribunal, I gave evidence against excommunication. Now I realize that I should have given evidence in favor of being ex'd. So glad the SP stuck to his guns.

PLEASE SHARE

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/us/mormon-young-excommunicated/index.html?no-st=1537841074

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by changed

[Duncan]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Well, I was planted in... mixed soil... I have a view of the good soil, but am not planted in it.  Do you think sometimes people grow better out of the church than in it?  

 

Sam Young's most recent fb post:

**Top Tier Media**

The Church meant to force me into silence. Instead, it gave me a megaphone. It will be used loud and long and strong.

Our cause has now made it to the top tier media with this great article by CNN. More is coming!!!

I now believe the Stake President was divinely inspired to excommunicate me. God wants children protected. This action has paved the way for a huge boost in awareness.

Thank you President. At my tribunal, I gave evidence against excommunication. Now I realize that I should have given evidence in favor of being ex'd. So glad the SP stuck to his guns.

PLEASE SHARE

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/us/mormon-young-excommunicated/index.html?no-st=1537841074

 

 

I am going to throw it out there but the whole Kavanaugh thing is bigger than the Sam Young scene

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am going to throw it out there but the whole Kavanaugh thing is bigger than the Sam Young scene

Not really. How many youth compared to 3 or now 4 women? But you must mean as far as how many know of Sam compared to Kavanaugh.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not really. How many youth compared to 3 or now 4 women? But you must mean as far as how many know of Sam compared to Kavanaugh.

in terms of knowing about it, it's on the news up here in Canada and we don't have anything to do with this court stuff! and Sam Young is unheard of here

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in terms of knowing about it, it's on the news up here in Canada and we don't have anything to do with this court stuff! and Sam Young is unheard of here

You're right, I'll bet if I asked my very active in-laws, neighbors or ward members, they haven't heard of him. But those of us on the fringe or members of boards like this, or people that read or watch the news diligently.

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You're right, I'll bet if I asked my very active in-laws, neighbors or ward members, they haven't heard of him. But those of us on the fringe or members of boards like this, or people that read or watch the news diligently.

true!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Sam Young's most recent fb post...

I now believe the Stake President was divinely inspired to excommunicate me. God wants children protected. This action has paved the way for a huge boost in awareness.

Thank you President. At my tribunal, I gave evidence against excommunication. Now I realize that I should have given evidence in favor of being ex'd. So glad the SP stuck to his guns.

PLEASE SHARE

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/us/mormon-young-excommunicated/index.html?no-st=1537841074

 

 

So he lied in his interview or is he just fickle (supremely dissapointed to elated overnight)?

"In an interview with CNN, Young said he feels "supremely disappointed" in the loss of his membership..." 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

So he lied in his interview or is he just fickle (supremely dissapointed to elated overnight)?

"In an interview with CNN, Young said he feels "supremely disappointed" in the loss of his membership..." 

Fickle might be the right answer but really, I think it's about maximizing publicity.  He obviously isn't gonna tell CNN that he's elated about his excommunication - that would kill the story.

I would guess that the interview was probably last week and, at that time, he claimed to feel disappointed.  To some degree, that's probably an honest response, in that he likely feels disappointed that they excommunicated him rather than seeing things his way and realizing that he is right.

Like Dehlin, Young doesn't seem to understand the things he said/did independent of his cause that resulted in his excommunication.

Then, the CNN article comes out and his excommunication is being used to create more publicity... so now he is expressing his gratitude for the excommunication (and resulting publicity).

Of course, I've argued all along, that I think Young anticipated this and that the excommunication is not all that meaningful to him given that he seems to believe that the church has gone astray.

Finally, I think he is still standing by his plan to appeal the decision of the disciplinary council.  Because... publicity.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Because... publicity.

I'm grateful you made this entire post so that none of the rest of us had to! It is much better coming from you, I suspect ...

[california boy]

11 hours ago, YJacket said:

And the official church position is only such since about 1994, with no new revelation or addition of scripture, prior to that SSA was clearly recognized as a sin. 

Yes from the Bible absolutely, so what if DC, BoM, PoGP are silent on it. PoGP is silent on many things, so is DC.  To disregard the OT and NT on this b/c it isn't specifically mentioned in the restored scripture is a little extreme.  I'll give you 5 scriptures, it's not even a stretch-it's plan as day.

Romans 1:26

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet

Corinthians 1:6

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Matthew 19

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

⁵ And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

⁶ Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

(Sidenote, I do find it strange you are hung up on divorce yet ignore Christ's commandment that man shall cleave to his wife-not his other man, two homosexuals cannot be one flesh-it is physically impossible)

Leviticus 18:22

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

²³ Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Leviticus 20:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Ah yes, that Bible where every single word written came from God Himself.  The book with talking donkeys, the sun stopping its revolution around the earth, a flood that covered the whole earth and no death before Adam and Eve.  Should we make a list of all the other things that God Himself wrote in the Bible?

[mfbukowski]

On 9/16/2018 at 4:31 PM, JAHS said:

Do you live the law of chastity?  That's it.

Correct

 

[Abulafia]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Ah yes, that Bible where every single word written came from God Himself.  The book with talking donkeys, the sun stopping its revolution around the earth, a flood that covered the whole earth and no death before Adam and Eve.  Should we make a list of all the other things that God Himself wrote in the Bible?

Agreed. The death penalty might have been incurred for

sacrificing to other gods, worshipping Baal, using herbs and etc in incantations, necromancy, false prophecy, Sabbath breaking.

Rape of a betrothed women (yeah says nothing about unbetrothed women), consensual sex with a betrothed woman, adultery with a married woman, a woman who claims to be a virgin at marriage, but isn't, incest - if it involves a married woman..(yeah unbetrothed daughters aren't so valuable).

Other activities with a capital offence were disobeying, smiting or cursing a parent. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

So he lied in his interview or is he just fickle (supremely dissapointed to elated overnight)?

"In an interview with CNN, Young said he feels "supremely disappointed" in the loss of his membership..." 

It got to CNN. Top tier news. His objective is to bring this issue to the attention of the media in the belief that pressure is needed to help the church consider the issues and dangers of one to one interviews with youth.

 

He was supremely disappointed to be exed, but if this excommunication means the issues will be more widely highlighted then, that is a positive for the movement. 

The movement has always been more important than what happens to any individual, including Sam. (Imho)