Sam Young is Excommunicated

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Most of the members lived in one community and its environs and knew the leaders personally. Are you downplaying the role of the 12 for any particular reason? ....a traveling high council, but more importantly special witnesses of Christ and a quorum equal in power and authority with the First Presidency (along with the 70). 

Your source, please?

I don't think I'm downplaying anything. After Joseph's death, the succession crisis showed that there wasn't a clear hierarchy within the organization. Many supposed the President of the stake in Nauvoo to be the leading organization. It was only after Brigham Young asserted the increased stature of the Q12, and "won" the succession debate, that the Q12 became what we think of it today. They were not viewed as prophets, seers and revelators, 2nd only to the first presidency...until they were.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

My private interpretation appears to me, at least, to be much more in harmony with the revelations on the matter. That's because my private interpretation is derived from trying to understand what the text is saying, and what was its intent as opposed to being driven by the exigencies of the shifting power dynamics of leadership. Also my private interpretation is informed by common, shared notions of consent and what it really means to give or withhold consent.

 

I do understand that you believe your interpretation is more closely aligned to how God would want His church to run.  I just disagree that you would have a better handle on how God wants His church to run than prophets and apostles.  

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think I'm downplaying anything. After Joseph's death, the succession crisis showed that there wasn't a clear hierarchy within the organization. Many supposed the President of the stake in Nauvoo to be the leading organization. It was only after Brigham Young asserted the increased stature of the Q12, and "won" the succession debate, that the Q12 became what we think of it today. They were not viewed as prophets, seers and revelators, 2nd only to the first presidency...until they were.

Section 108 had been revealed by 1835.

 

Quote

 

21 Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding officers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other—

28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise—

29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men.

30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;

31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision.

33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews.

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—

35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews.

36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council.

37 The high council in Zion form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.

38 It is the duty of the traveling high council to call upon the Seventy, when they need assistance, to fill the several calls for preaching and administering the gospel, instead of any others.

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think I'm downplaying anything. After Joseph's death, the succession crisis showed that there wasn't a clear hierarchy within the organization. Many supposed the President of the stake in Nauvoo to be the leading organization. It was only after Brigham Young asserted the increased stature of the Q12, and "won" the succession debate, that the Q12 became what we think of it today. They were not viewed as prophets, seers and revelators, 2nd only to the first presidency...until they were.

They are much, much more than a traveling high council. You omitted the part about the Quorum being equal in authority to the First Presidency....

Quote

And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.....The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews.

Not just any old high council or missionaries, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

11 hours ago, rongo said:

It would certainly be a dilemma, no doubt about that. Not even squeaking by with a simple majority --- that would be as equally catastrophic as a near-unanimous rejection. If there were consistently a sizeable number of people bellowing "Opposed!" along with Sam Young (but still far short of approaching halfway), that would trigger it being addressed, I think. 

I think if there were great division among a stake disciplinary council, almost every stake president would reconsider, for the reasons you said above. Even if one has the authority to ramrod a decision through, there is also legitimacy and credibility that need to be considered. 

I think the Church leadership has a good handle on the consent level of the general membership and what can be expected. They do get around and hear things; the outcome of the sustaining session is no surprise. It's very predictable.

The procedures in D&C 102 are designed to ensure legitimate evidence, hearing and examination.

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In today's technology age there are pretty simple ways the church could seek and receive sustaining/opposing votes from the church membership. They haven't done anything to implement a system for this, but they could. I hope they do. It would be fascinating to see 1) how many members vote (may give a better indication of membership)  2) how many vote to sustain 3) how many vote opposed. The results could be included as part of the auditing report. Asking for a sustaining vote of the 20,000 in the conference center doesn't really represent the entirety of the church. I suspect most of us can agree on that. Right now "bellowing" opposed in the conference center is the only real way to have an opposing vote noticed but again, I suspect most of us can agree that's not ideal. Sadly, it's all there is.

I think you're right that the majority of SP's would probably avoid ramrodding a decision through. But right now, it's really not necessary to ramrod because they are the only decision maker. As the only one responsible for passing the judgement, members of the SP and HC accept that the SP will unilaterally make the decision. The culture is designed to sustain the leader, not oppose, even if there is legitimate disagreement.

With today's cheap technology, someone with a little bit of ambition, after weighing the practicality (and ignoring the impracticality) of the endeavor, could devise a means to corral the voices of those who oppose and send them to the appropriate stake presidents. The opposition is currently recognized by their stake president; even a tiny groundswell would be noticed and reported at that point. The assumption that the opposing vote is by far the exception is reasonable, and certainly at a level that a stake president can manage personally. I would say the 20,000 in attendance at the Conference Center session where the sustaining takes place is fairly representative of the interested (whether pro or con; both have the opportunity and make the effort and sacrifice to attend) membership globally.

Of those that cannot attend, both in favor and opposing, can take comfort in knowing the Lord knows the intents of their hearts. And they can always vote in their unit conferences and see their stake presidents.

I think the culture, and the procedures in D&C 102, are designed to encourage integrity, character and an equal voice in presenting, hearing, and examining the evidences. And these procedures are designed to ensure legitimate evidence, hearing and examination.

[cdowis]

On 9/16/2018 at 2:58 PM, lostindc said:

What did you dislike most about Sam and the movement he's involved in?

You answered your own question.  it was not merely a disagreement but recruiting others to his personal idol worship.

DC 1 16 They ^aseek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man ^bwalketh in his ^cown ^dway, and after the ^eimage of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth ^fold and shall perish in ^gBabylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

Edited September 22, 2018 by cdowis

[halconero]

On 9/21/2018 at 1:29 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think I'm downplaying anything. After Joseph's death, the succession crisis showed that there wasn't a clear hierarchy within the organization. Many supposed the President of the stake in Nauvoo to be the leading organization. It was only after Brigham Young asserted the increased stature of the Q12, and "won" the succession debate, that the Q12 became what we think of it today. They were not viewed as prophets, seers and revelators, 2nd only to the first presidency...until they were.

They were publicly acknowledged as prophets, seers, and revelators, 2nd only to the First Presidency, as early as the Kirtland Temple Dedication:

"I then made a short address, and called upon the several quorums, and all the congregation of Saints, to acknowledge the Presidency as Prophets and Seers, and uphold them by their prayers. They all covenanted to do so, by rising."

"I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles, who were present, as Prophets, Seers, Revelators, and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it, or cause it to be done, among them, and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising." - Joseph Smith, 1836, at the Kirtland Temple Dedication. History of the Church, 2:417.

Edited September 23, 2018 by halconero

[Storm Rider]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Section 108 had been revealed by 1835.

 

 

Scott, you spoil all the fun of having a conflicting opinion. It is just not fair to use scripture to disprove and refute opinions. 

[Exiled]

On 9/21/2018 at 6:54 PM, CV75 said:

With today's cheap technology, someone with a little bit of ambition, after weighing the practicality (and ignoring the impracticality) of the endeavor, could devise a means to corral the voices of those who oppose and send them to the appropriate stake presidents. The opposition is currently recognized by their stake president; even a tiny groundswell would be noticed and reported at that point.

You don't have a problem with members spying on other members? How about taking it one step further and implanting spying software in all church member smart phones? The LDS apps with the spy feature could track all the dissenters communications and stop the dissent relatively quickly or at least the leadership could know what was coming quicker. (Maybe this is already being done?)

Or because the church supposedly has the truth, it could simply teach correct principles and ......

[changed]

On 9/22/2018 at 12:15 PM, cdowis said:

You answered your own question.  it was not merely a disagreement but recruiting others to his personal idol worship.

DC 1 16 They ^aseek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man ^bwalketh in his ^cown ^dway, and after the ^eimage of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth ^fold and shall perish in ^gBabylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

 

Many members have made prophets and apostles into idols.  

Individual testimony is needed:

Man Cannot Endure on Borrowed Light - "Heber C. Kimball, a counselor to President Brigham Young, warned the Saints in 1856 that many trials would come to test their faith; that the time would come that no man or woman would be able to endure on borrowed light. Each must gain a personal knowledge of the truth and be guided by the light within himself."

2 Nephi 4:34
O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. 

Prophets and apostles have arms of flesh.... consider the original 12 apostles - they could not walk on water, could not always heal people, they wanted to keep children from coming to Jesus, could not stay awake when needed, they doubted, one betrayed Jesus with a kiss.... no, I will not have a testimony of any prophet or apostle.  Apostles are just a reminder that God works with imperfect people.

 

It is up to all of us to gain our own personal testimony, follow our own conscience - the light of Christ that comes individually to each of us.  

Not "Follow the Prophet" - it is follow Christ, follow Heavenly Father.  On none else should anyone's testimony rest.

Edited September 23, 2018 by changed

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, changed said:

It is up to all of us to gain our own personal testimony, follow our own conscience - the light of Christ that comes individually to each of us.  

Not "Follow the Prophet" - it is follow Christ, follow Heavenly Father.  On none else should anyone's testimony rest.

I 100% agree that it is up to us to develop our own testimonies.  However, it is a false dichotomy to say that we can either follow the prophets or follow the light of Christ.

 

[changed]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

I 100% agree that it is up to us to develop our own testimonies.  However, it is a false dichotomy to say that we can either follow the prophets or follow the light of Christ.

 

You do not believe prophets are perfect do you?  You do recognize the incredible number of shortcomings of the original apostles?  That the current apostles could have just as many faults as the original?... if you were living during the time of Jesus, and his apostles pushed your kids away and said "You cannot talk to Jesus right now, Jesus is tired" - what would you have done?

 

Innocent children of LGBT couples - the apostles are pushing them away from church right now... what do you think about this?

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by changed

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Many members have made prophets and apostles into idols.  

Individual testimony is needed:

Man Cannot Endure on Borrowed Light - "Heber C. Kimball, a counselor to President Brigham Young, warned the Saints in 1856 that many trials would come to test their faith; that the time would come that no man or woman would be able to endure on borrowed light. Each must gain a personal knowledge of the truth and be guided by the light within himself."

2 Nephi 4:34
O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. 

Prophets and apostles have arms of flesh.... consider the original 12 apostles - they could not walk on water, could not always heal people, they wanted to keep children from coming to Jesus, could not stay awake when needed, they doubted, one betrayed Jesus with a kiss.... no, I will not have a testimony of any prophet or apostle.  Apostles are just a reminder that God works with imperfect people.

 

It is up to all of us to gain our own personal testimony, follow our own conscience - the light of Christ that comes individually to each of us.  

Not "Follow the Prophet" - it is follow Christ, follow Heavenly Father.  On none else should anyone's testimony rest.

All that is very true, but Christ also said-

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

I love how Christ acknowledges the weaknesses of His servants a few verses before this verse-

Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.  And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;  And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;  And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;  And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

It is follow the Prophet, as he (sometimes imperfectly) follows Christ.    This is what Christ has asked of us.

[changed]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It is follow the Prophet, as he (sometimes imperfectly) follows Christ.    This is what Christ has asked of us.

Most of the 7.7 billion people on this earth have no prophet to follow.  Most of the people on this earth through history had no prophet to follow.  That is by design - by design God did not send prophets and apostles to the vast majority of the people on this earth.... Why is that?  

If God wanted all of us to follow prophets, he would have given all the people on earth through all history prophets to follow.  Those in China, those in India, those in Africa - they would have all had prophets.  Instead they lived their lives without scriptures, without religious leaders - why was it designed this way?  God did not send apostles and prophets to the majority of his children.

If God wanted a personal relationship with all of us - if he wanted us to follow our own conscience - he would have left most people, most of the time, without a solid guide to follow.  

Humans by nature are lazy - not wanting to think for themselves, not wanting to take responsibility for themselves, preferring to just rely on others for their strength and testimony... the only way perhaps is to take away those supports - no supports = forced to stand on your own two feet.

Dependent at the start, but at some point, those supports will be pulled away - by the end, we are all supposed to stand on our own two feet.

Follow the light of Christ, Follow the Spirit...

Upon this rock - not upon Peter - upon personal revelation - upon this rock is the church built.

Edited September 23, 2018 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

They were publicly acknowledged as prophets, seers, and revelators, 2nd only to the First Presidency, as early as the Kirtland Temple Dedication:

"I then made a short address, and called upon the several quorums, and all the congregation of Saints, to acknowledge the Presidency as Prophets and Seers, and uphold them by their prayers. They all covenanted to do so, by rising."

"I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles, who were present, as Prophets, Seers, Revelators, and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it, or cause it to be done, among them, and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising." - Joseph Smith, 1836, at the Kirtland Temple Dedication. History of the Church, 2:417.

Thank you for finding this. It appears to be exactly the same thing we do in Conference today. He did not call for a vote of approval (democratic consent) but rather a vote to sustain (uphold). This puts sustaining votes in a historical light.

[Bernard Gui]

55 minutes ago, Exiled said:

You don't have a problem with members spying on other members? How about taking it one step further and implanting spying software in all church member smart phones? The LDS apps with the spy feature could track all the dissenters communications and stop the dissent relatively quickly or at least the leadership could know what was coming quicker. (Maybe this is already being done?)

Or because the church supposedly has the truth, it could simply teach correct principles and ......

Despite the unfounded fears of spying, the Book of Mormon has a common theme running from beginning to end....how disobedience, pride, and dissension always end up doing great damage to the Church.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/21/2018 at 10:23 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Please remind me...how well did it go when Joseph tried to step down and install Hyrum as President instead? Did the members disapproval have something to do with that?

Your source, please?

[pogi]

2 hours ago, changed said:

You do not believe prophets are perfect do you?  You do recognize the incredible number of shortcomings of the original apostles?  That the current apostles could have just as many faults as the original?... if you were living during the time of Jesus, and his apostles pushed your kids away and said "You cannot talk to Jesus right now, Jesus is tired" - what would you have done?

 

Innocent children of LGBT couples - the apostles are pushing them away from church right now... what do you think about this?

No, I don't believe prophets are perfect.  I am not going to comment on every way a prophet might be right or wrong.  there are a couple schools of thought within Mormonism.  One says that we should follow the prophet, even if we feel they are wrong - and if they are wrong, then we will still be blessed for following the prophet.  Then there is the school of thought that I subscribe to - I personally see the command to follow the prophets in the same light as women are commanded to obey their husbands, or as children are to obey their parents (all scriptural)...these are not absolute expectations to obey and follow blindly, no matter what.  It is implied that we only do so "as they follow the Lord".  

Just curious though, you mentioned that we should follow the light of Christ.  How would you even know what the light of Christ is, or know to follow the light of Christ if not for prophets?  To follow the light of Christ is to follow the prophets.   

Edited September 23, 2018 by pogi

[changed]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, I don't believe prophets are perfect.  I am not going to comment on every way a prophet might be right or wrong.  there are a couple schools of thought within Mormonism.  One says that we should follow the prophet, even if we feel they are wrong - and if they are wrong, then we will still be blessed for following the prophet.  Then there is the school of thought that I subscribe to - I personally see the command to follow the prophets in the same light as women are commanded to obey their husbands, or as children are to obey their parents (all scriptural)...these are not absolute expectations to obey and follow blindly, no matter what.  It is implied that we only do so "as they follow the Lord".  

Just curious though, you mentioned that we should follow the light of Christ.  How would you even know what the light of Christ is, or know to follow the light of Christ if not for prophets?  To follow the light of Christ is to follow the prophets.   

There is a great danger when parents, husbands, or other leaders are led astray... so much pain through betrayal trauma...   hopefully everyone knows their #1 devotion does not belong to any arms of flesh.   

The light of Christ - see C.S.Lewis Illustrations of the Tao - link

Is the world unfair, unjust, unloving - with the vast majority of humanity left without guidance? ... or ... does everyone, everywhere have exactly the same guidance - exactly the same conscience, exactly the same light of Christ within them no matter what country they were born into, or what time period they lived in?  

I see only one excuse to justify a loving God - that being the light of Christ which is given to all mankind, and teaches all right and wrong.  No need for scriptures, no need for prophets and apostles (although those can sometimes help some people), no need to belong to any particular religious organization - the thought that God has given everyone all they need - a light within them - is very comforting to me.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by changed

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, changed said:

There is a great danger when parents, husbands, or other leaders are led astray... so much pain through betrayal trauma...   hopefully everyone knows their #1 devotion does not belong to any arms of flesh.   

Agreed!

19 minutes ago, changed said:

The light of Christ - see C.S.Lewis Illustrations of the Tao - link

So you believe in objective morality?

Quote

Myself, I would argue that the moral laws exists in the human heart due to the intention of the supernatural creator of man, who also has the authority to command obedience to them, and the power to disseminate these laws instantaneously at creation into every rational spirit. However, other theories can be argued as well. What cannot be argued is that there is...no agreement on the natural moral code.

 Do you believe that this objective morality is the light of Christ?

Do you really agree with the bold part?

[changed]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

Agreed!

So you believe in objective morality?

 Do you believe that this objective morality is the light of Christ?

Do you really agree with the bold part?

For the most part we all agree, but there are many exceptions.  

Enough agreement to support the idea that we are all led by a similar light.

Enough exceptions to know we all have a different path to follow...

I believe what is right in one circumstance is sometimes not right in another circumstance.  (Polygamy right for one, not right for another... going to war right for one, not right for another... following their earthly father right for one, not right for another...)

I believe in the spirit of laws, not the letter of laws...

I believe in free agency, and believe we all take individual paths... 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by changed

[pogi]

1 minute ago, changed said:

I believe what is right in one circumstance is sometimes not right in another circumstance.  (Polygamy right for one, not right for another... going to war right for one, not right for another... following their earthly father right for one, not right for another...)

I believe in the spirit of laws, not the letter of laws...

I believe in free agency, and believe we all take individual paths... 

I do not believe any of us should just or try to direct another... the best we can do is support one another, and not judge. 

So you don't believe in objective morality then?

I guess I am a little confused.  What was the purpose of the link?

Just curious, can you claim any original spiritual thought, or do you rely on spiritual leaders (arm of flesh) for your beliefs, just like the rest of us?

 

[Exiled]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Despite the unfounded fears of spying, the Book of Mormon has a common theme running from beginning to end....how disobedience, pride, and dissension always end up doing great damage to the Church.

Spying and then turning in the so-called dissenters into their SP's was CV75's proposal.  Do you think the church should spy on the members so it can ferret out the Sam Young's of the world prior to their getting a following or at least so HQ can know what's coming?  Obviously, this type of control is justified because the book of mormon shows how dissension from the leaders causes damage? 

[Bernard Gui]

Double post

Edited September 23, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Spying and then turning in the so-called dissenters into their SP's was CV75's proposal.  Do you think the church should spy on the members so it can ferret out the Sam Young's of the world prior to their getting a following or at least so HQ can know what's coming?  Obviously, this type of control is justified because the book of mormon shows how dissension from the leaders causes damage? 

Of course not. That’s absurd. There are other choices  

Nevertheless, dissension in the Church always leads to grief. The scriptures are clear on that, giving repeated warnings about backbiting, evil speaking, finding fault, and causing contention. The Church has the right to resist such destructive activities. They do not come from the Spirit.