Sam Young is Excommunicated

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Correct

Some people clearly detest the fact that, in this supposedly enlightened age, we actually maintain our position that chastity is important.

[smac97]

13 hours ago, changed said:

Well, I was planted in... mixed soil... I have a view of the good soil, but am not planted in it.  Do you think sometimes people grow better out of the church than in it?  

Sam Young's most recent fb post:

**Top Tier Media**

The Church meant to force me into silence. Instead, it gave me a megaphone. It will be used loud and long and strong.

Our cause has now made it to the top tier media with this great article by CNN. More is coming!!!

I now believe the Stake President was divinely inspired to excommunicate me. God wants children protected. This action has paved the way for a huge boost in awareness.

Thank you President. At my tribunal, I gave evidence against excommunication. Now I realize that I should have given evidence in favor of being ex'd. So glad the SP stuck to his guns.

PLEASE SHARE

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/us/mormon-young-excommunicated/index.html?no-st=1537841074

 

So the value of Sam Young's membership in the Church lies not its focus on Jesus Christ, or on its claims of restored authority and continuing revelation, or in its moral teachings, or in its saving ordinances.

Rather, its value is based on how much media attention it garners for him.

For some reason, the phrase "mess of pottage" comes to mind...

I feel very badly for Sam Young.  I hope he has a change of heart.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Some people clearly detest the fact that, in this supposedly enlightened age, we actually maintain our position that chastity is important.

No, that's not it. Chastity is important to most Christian denominations. Most of them don't have the pastor or priest probe their members about it though.

[Abulafia]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

No, that's not it. Chastity is important to most Christian denominations. Most of them don't have the pastor or priest probe their members about it though.

So true. It's a matter of trust.  And I guess for most this is an invalid point, but if perfection is the basis of entrance to a Mormon temple then every single person on earth should be barred because none are worthy. This is particularly worth considering when one considers that Jesus had argued that anyone who had committed adultery (or fornication for that matter)in their mind/heart,  was already guilty. 

Jewish Temples were places to go in spite of unworthiness not because of worthiness.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Abulafia

[ALarson]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Some people clearly detest the fact that, in this supposedly enlightened age, we actually maintain our position that chastity is important.

I think most people still care a great deal about chastity.  It's not just members of our church who strive to live it and instill good moral values in their children as well.

[rongo]

46 minutes ago, Gray said:

No, that's not it. Chastity is important to most Christian denominations. Most of them don't have the pastor or priest probe their members about it though.

 

30 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think most people still care a great deal about chastity.  It's not just members of our church who strive to live it and instill good moral values in their children as well.

I don't see this at all in my interactions with people. Among evangelicals, their reformed theology gives license because of "once saved, always saved." Chastity is a good thing, in theory, because of tradition and conservatism, but it's not a problem if people are more modern in their mores and morals. Catholic theology is squarely supportive of chastity, but American Catholic praxis is . . . we all know that. 

I participate in a Liberty University message board, because BYU will be playing them more and more (Liberty is an independent, like BYU). They are fascinated by BYU/the Church's archaic LoC stance and insistence on it. Liberty is the Falwell's university. 

I'm sorry, but I don't see traditional adherence to the Law of Chastity as existing really anywhere outside of the Church. If you commit fornication (outside of marriage), it's okay as long as you are "saved" and are otherwise a good person. Outside of the Church, it is not seen as anything to repent of. Theologically, it should be confessed in Catholicism, but you are still a Catholic in good standing if you aren't attending confession regularly --- and if you confess it, it's okay if it's an ongoing "struggle." 

I see this as one of the increasingly unique things that sets the Church apart from other churches. It's also why our system of interviews and the repentance process is something I believe we shouldn't give up. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rongo

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

I don't see this at all in my interactions with people. Among evangelicals, their reformed theology gives license because of "once saved, always saved." Chastity is a good thing, in theory, because of tradition and conservatism, but it's not a problem if people are more modern in their mores and morals. Catholic theology is squarely supportive of chastity, but American Catholic praxis is . . . we all know that. 

I participate in a Liberty University message board, because BYU will be playing them more and more (Liberty is an independent, like BYU). They are fascinated by BYU/the Church's archaic LoC stance and insistence on it. Liberty is the Falwell's university. 

I'm sorry, but I don't see traditional adherence to the Law of Chastity as existing really anywhere outside of the Church. If you commit fornication (outside of marriage), it's okay as long as you are "saved" and are otherwise a good person. Outside of the Church, it is not seen as anything to repent of. Theologically, it should be confessed in Catholicism, but you are still a Catholic in good standing if you aren't attending confession regularly --- and if you confess it, it's okay if it's an ongoing "struggle." 

I see this as one of the increasingly unique things that sets the Church apart from other churches. It's also why our system of interviews and the repentance process is something I believe we shouldn't give up.  

I'm not sure your characterization really holds true of Christianity at large. There's a pretty broad spectrum. The fundies, however, have pretty famously selective moral standards.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Gray

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure your characterization really holds true of Christianity at large. There's a pretty broad spectrum. 

What indication do you have that broad spectrum Christianity in 2018, generally, teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin that needs to be repented of? Serious question.

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

What indication do you have that broad spectrum Christianity in 2018, generally, teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin that needs to be repented of? Serious question.

It's not scientific. I hang out at a large multi-denominational Christian discussion board (much larger than this board, including everything from Evangelicals to Unitarians), and I see strong orthodox advocacy for Christian chastity. The big controversies aren't sex before marriage, they tend to be more about gay marriage and the role of government in helping the poor.

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

It's not scientific. I hang out at a large multi-denominational Christian discussion board (much larger than this board, including everything from Evangelicals to Unitarians), and I see strong orthodox advocacy for Christian chastity. The big controversies aren't sex before marriage, they tend to be more about gay marriage and the role of government in helping the poor.

Are you able to take a straw poll among them to gauge that? I think you might be surprised.

Many will say that they think sex only within traditional marriage is best in the good-better-best continuum. But, not many will go on record in 2018 as thinking it is a sin that will keep you out of heaven, unrepented of. It's more a "you probably shouldn't do that, if you can help it."

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

No, that's not it. Chastity is important to most Christian denominations. Most of them don't have the pastor or priest probe their members about it though.

Do most Christian denominations believe that sexual sins can affect someone's salvation is they remain unrepentant?  Do most Christian denominations consider sexual sins to be extremely serious?

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are you able to take a straw poll among them to gauge that? I think you might be surprised.

Many will say that they think sex only within traditional marriage is best in the good-better-best continuum. But, not many will go on record in 2018 as thinking it is a sin that will keep you out of heaven, unrepented of. It's more a "you probably shouldn't do that, if you can help it."

The national association of Evangelicals did a study a couple of years ago which showed that 80% of unmarried Evangelicals between the ages of 18-29 had been sexually active.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The national association of Evangelicals did a study a couple of years ago which showed that 80% of unmarried Evangelicals between the ages of 18-29 had been sexually active.

This is what totally blows my mind. My wife was my first kiss, and I think that I dated maybe five other girls other than my wife. So, I was never a "fast mover" of any kind. My big fear was, if you try to kiss her or hold her hand, and she pulls away, what do you do then? I didn't want to find out. It seemed like an awkward situation you couldn't recover from. I wouldn't be any "better" at it if I had to date again in my 40s. 

I've been a teacher for 16 years, and a bishop for 8. I can't wrap my mind around the hook-up culture, and how you would even go about that (necking and petting and other things with multiple people). But it is so common, even among many Church members, unfortunately. How do you simply have sex with someone you're dating? How do people routinely move in together? 

Completely foreign to me. Completely not foreign in today's society. 

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do most Christian denominations believe that sexual sins can affect someone's salvation is they remain unrepentant?  Do most Christian denominations consider sexual sins to be extremely serious? 

If you're asking if they tell people it's the sin next to murder, probably not. But most seem to emphasize chastity before marriage and fidelity within marriage. 

But I was responding to HT's statement that people are upset because "we actually maintain our position that chastity is important." Chastity can be important to a religious group, even when they don't require social humiliation as a repentance step or compare people who slipped up to murderers. (Some older protestant denominations can have some of that flavor though).

No one is being criticized for believing chastity is important.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Gray

[rongo]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

If you're asking if they tell people it's the sin next to murder, probably not. But most seem to emphasize chastity before marriage and fidelity within marriage. 

I don't even see it emphasized --- as in specifically taught. When, in a non-Mormon church, is there typically a sermon or a lesson taught emphasizing chastity before/outside of marriage? Fidelity within marriage, yes. That I agree with. We don't have a monopoly on that. 

 Chastity can be important to a religious group, even when they don't require social humiliation as a repentance step

I would settle for simply teaching that it is a sin that needs to be repented of, and that people shouldn't do it (sex outside of marriage, whether unmarried or already married). I think this is extremely rare nowadays outside of the Church. 

I'm trying to see where you see social humiliation in the Church. Do you mean confession to the bishop? Membership restrictions? We haven't branded people with scarlet letters for a few years now. ;) 

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, Gray said:

If you're asking if they tell people it's the sin next to murder, probably not. But most seem to emphasize chastity before marriage and fidelity within marriage. 

But I was responding to HT's statement that people are upset because "we actually maintain our position that chastity is important." Chastity can be important to a religious group, even when they don't require social humiliation as a repentance step or compare people who slipped up to murderers. (Some older protestant denominations can have some of that flavor though).

No one is being criticized for believing chastity is important.

You’re criticizing, right now in this post, our church for its beliefs about the importance of chastity. 

But I was asking those questions to illustrate why our church handles chastity differently than a lot of other Christian denominations. We handle it differently because we believe it’s more important than they do. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by bluebell

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

 

I don't see this at all in my interactions with people. Among evangelicals, their reformed theology gives license because of "once saved, always saved." Chastity is a good thing, in theory, because of tradition and conservatism, but it's not a problem if people are more modern in their mores and morals. Catholic theology is squarely supportive of chastity, but American Catholic praxis is . . . we all know that. 

I participate in a Liberty University message board, because BYU will be playing them more and more (Liberty is an independent, like BYU). They are fascinated by BYU/the Church's archaic LoC stance and insistence on it. Liberty is the Falwell's university. 

I'm sorry, but I don't see traditional adherence to the Law of Chastity as existing really anywhere outside of the Church. If you commit fornication (outside of marriage), it's okay as long as you are "saved" and are otherwise a good person. Outside of the Church, it is not seen as anything to repent of. Theologically, it should be confessed in Catholicism, but you are still a Catholic in good standing if you aren't attending confession regularly --- and if you confess it, it's okay if it's an ongoing "struggle." 

I see this as one of the increasingly unique things that sets the Church apart from other churches. It's also why our system of interviews and the repentance process is something I believe we shouldn't give up. 

Amazingly, some people are now ripping into Brett Kavenaugh because he said he was a virgin throughout his high school and college years. In today's Orwellian NewSpeak, adherence to chastity evidently is supposed to make one a pervert.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Abulafia said:

It got to CNN. Top tier news. His objective is to bring this issue to the attention of the media in the belief that pressure is needed to help the church consider the issues and dangers of one to one interviews with youth.

 

He was supremely disappointed to be exed, but if this excommunication means the issues will be more widely highlighted then, that is a positive for the movement. 

The movement has always been more important than what happens to any individual, including Sam. (Imho)

Maybe you can’t be expected to know this because you don’t live in this country, but CNN is not “top tier.” It is at the bottom of the heap in ratings for cable news outlets, and its ethics and professional standards are embarrassingly inferior. I haven’t heard the coverage, but it is scarcely surprising to me that CNN would do a hatchet job on the Church of Jesus Christ. 

[Abulafia]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe you can’t be expected to know this because you don’t live in this country, but CNN is not “top tier.” It is at the bottom of the heap in ratings for cable news outlets, and its ethics and professional standards are embarrassingly inferior. I haven’t heard the coverage, but it is scarcely surprising to me that CNN would do a hatchet job on the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Please don't tell me that you regard Fox News as top tier. CNN may not be the BBC but still.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Please don't tell me that you regard Fox News as top tier. CNN may not be the BBC but still.

I place very little faith in any large media outlet (including Fox, CNN and BBC).  I think major media outlets are, in the main, hopelessly compromised in their journalistic integrity.  Way too much partisanship.

I obtain my news from a number of news aggregator websites, which in turn source their materials from a variety of sources.  Still far from perfect, but much better than relying on BBC or Fox or CNN.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Please don't tell me that you regard Fox News as top tier. CNN may not be the BBC but still.

"Top tier" was your term, not mine. It just struck me as humorous (unintentional though it may have been) when applied to CNN.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Abulafia]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Top tier" was your term, not mine.

 

It was Sam Young's actually.

[Abulafia]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I place very little faith in any large media outlet (including Fox, CNN and BBC).  I think major media outlets are, in the main, hopelessly compromised in their journalistic integrity.  Way too much partisanship.

I obtain my news from a number of news aggregator websites, which in turn source their materials from a variety of sources.  Still far from perfect, but much better than relying on BBC or Fox or CNN.

Thanks,

-Smac

My son would probably agree fwiw, except for your opinion of the BBC.. 

[Exiled]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I place very little faith in any large media outlet (including Fox, CNN and BBC).  I think major media outlets are, in the main, hopelessly compromised in their journalistic integrity.  Way too much partisanship.

I obtain my news from a number of news aggregator websites, which in turn source their materials from a variety of sources.  Still far from perfect, but much better than relying on BBC or Fox or CNN.

Thanks,

-Smac

I agree that the msm is too biased to be trusted. That's what we get for allowing an oligopoly control the press.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

It was Sam Young's actually.

Well apparently you lapped it right up.