changed Posted August 26, 2018 Posted August 26, 2018 In order to not derail the modesty thread, here is a "For the Strength of Youth" thread to discuss what is healthy, and what is not healthy in it. Let's take this chapter by chapter. Chapter 1: Agency and Accountability: I would argue most of life is not a choice. LGBT - do NOT choose their sexual preference... no one chooses the body they are born with, or who they were born to, or what resources they have growing up, or what medical conditions they have... no one chooses the religion of their parents, or the country they are born into and the culture they are taught. Telling kids everything that happens in their life is their choice is wrong and damaging. Most of our life is not a choice. Most scientists agree we are a product of nature/nurture - of our DNA and our environment. Be honest, if you were born in __________ country to _________ parents who had _________ beliefs and were educated in _________school, with __________ medical condition etc. what would your beliefs be today? Consequences are not always the result ofpersonal choices. Natural disasters, health conditions etc. etc. Righteous choices do not always lead to happiness - take Jesus 12 disciples, 11 of them were brutally murdered. Telling kids their state of "happiness" is a result of their choice is wrong - the message "if you are not happy, it is because you are a sinner" is wrong. This life is a cruel test. Not tested beyond what you are able to bear? If you believe that, then those with good happy lives are weak and unable to bear much of anything. A better message - it is ok to not be happy about your situation. A bad situation does NOT mean you are being punished by God, a bad situation does NOT mean you are a sinner. Loss of freedom comes from disobedience? How about loss of freedom often comes from the situation you were born into - from being born into poverty, or born into an abusive family, or born into a repressive political regime, or born with a medical condition. None of us are free - and it is usually NOT because of disobedience that we are not free. A much healthier message for chapter 1 would be - some things - and only some things - in life are a choice, while other things are not a choice. For those few things you have control over do the best you can to follow moral principles. For those things you do not have a choice over, know you can grow closer to your Heavenly Family if you rely on them during hardships. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted August 26, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 26, 2018 2 hours ago, changed said: Telling kids everything that happens in their life is their choice is wrong and damaging. Can you show me where it says that? "Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose right from wrong and to act for yourself. Next to the bestowal of life itself, the right to direct your life is one of God’s greatest gifts to you. While here on earth, you are being proven to see if you will use your agency to show your love for God by keeping His commandments. The Holy Ghost can guide you in using your agency righteously. You are responsible for the choices you make. God is mindful of you and will help you make good choices, even if your family and friends use their agency in ways that are not right. Have the moral courage to stand firm in obeying God’s will, even if you have to stand alone. As you do this, you set an example for others to follow. While you are free to choose your course of action, you are not free to choose the consequences. Whether for good or bad, consequences follow as a natural result of the choices you make. Some sinful behavior may bring temporary, worldly pleasure, but such choices delay your progress and lead to heartache and misery. Righteous choices lead to lasting happiness and eternal life. Remember, true freedom comes from using your agency to choose obedience; loss of freedom comes from choosing disobedience." 6
rpn Posted August 26, 2018 Posted August 26, 2018 IME, living the gospel absolutely does result in happiness. What it may not do is result in our avoiding bad experiences, or bad actors, or even incorrect choices. Maybe "you can have purpose and meaning and joy and comfort through the gospel, even if you are dealing with hard or horrible things that are beyond what you think you can bear"?
Popular Post Jane_Doe Posted August 26, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 26, 2018 3 hours ago, changed said: In order to not derail the modesty thread, here is a "For the Strength of Youth" thread to discuss what is healthy, and what is not healthy in it. Let's take this chapter by chapter. Chapter 1: Agency and Accountability: I would argue most of life is not a choice. LGBT - do NOT choose their sexual preference... no one chooses the body they are born with, or who they were born to, or what resources they have growing up, or what medical conditions they have... no one chooses the religion of their parents, or the country they are born into and the culture they are taught. Telling kids everything that happens in their life is their choice is wrong and damaging. Most of our life is not a choice. Most scientists agree we are a product of nature/nurture - of our DNA and our environment. Be honest, if you were born in __________ country to _________ parents who had _________ beliefs and were educated in _________school, with __________ medical condition etc. what would your beliefs be today? For a point of clarification here, the FTSOY package in no way attributes any of those situational things to being the result of that person's choices. Rather this chapter specifically talks about taking account of their individual actions, not everything/everyone's that happens in their life-- the bolded message is not even being said. 8
cinepro Posted August 26, 2018 Posted August 26, 2018 6 hours ago, changed said: In order to not derail the modesty thread, here is a "For the Strength of Youth" thread to discuss what is healthy, and what is not healthy in it. Let's take this chapter by chapter. Chapter 1: Agency and Accountability: I would argue most of life is not a choice. LGBT - do NOT choose their sexual preference... no one chooses the body they are born with, or who they were born to, or what resources they have growing up, or what medical conditions they have... no one chooses the religion of their parents, or the country they are born into and the culture they are taught. Telling kids everything that happens in their life is their choice is wrong and damaging. Most of our life is not a choice. Most scientists agree we are a product of nature/nurture - of our DNA and our environment. Be honest, if you were born in __________ country to _________ parents who had _________ beliefs and were educated in _________school, with __________ medical condition etc. what would your beliefs be today? Consequences are not always the result ofpersonal choices. Natural disasters, health conditions etc. etc. Righteous choices do not always lead to happiness - take Jesus 12 disciples, 11 of them were brutally murdered. Telling kids their state of "happiness" is a result of their choice is wrong - the message "if you are not happy, it is because you are a sinner" is wrong. This life is a cruel test. Not tested beyond what you are able to bear? If you believe that, then those with good happy lives are weak and unable to bear much of anything. A better message - it is ok to not be happy about your situation. A bad situation does NOT mean you are being punished by God, a bad situation does NOT mean you are a sinner. Loss of freedom comes from disobedience? How about loss of freedom often comes from the situation you were born into - from being born into poverty, or born into an abusive family, or born into a repressive political regime, or born with a medical condition. None of us are free - and it is usually NOT because of disobedience that we are not free. A much healthier message for chapter 1 would be - some things - and only some things - in life are a choice, while other things are not a choice. For those few things you have control over do the best you can to follow moral principles. For those things you do not have a choice over, know you can grow closer to your Heavenly Family if you rely on them during hardships. As others have pointed out, you'll be relieved to learn that the pamphlet doesn't actually say all the stuff that bothers you. Maybe you could excerpt actual claims from the site and address them individually? 2
mrmarklin Posted August 26, 2018 Posted August 26, 2018 7 hours ago, changed said: In order to not derail the modesty thread, here is a "For the Strength of Youth" thread to discuss what is healthy, and what is not healthy in it. Let's take this chapter by chapter. Chapter 1: Agency and Accountability: I would argue most of life is not a choice. LGBT - do NOT choose their sexual preference... no one chooses the body they are born with, or who they were born to, or what resources they have growing up, or what medical conditions they have... no one chooses the religion of their parents, or the country they are born into and the culture they are taught. Telling kids everything that happens in their life is their choice is wrong and damaging. Most of our life is not a choice. Most scientists agree we are a product of nature/nurture - of our DNA and our environment. Be honest, if you were born in __________ country to _________ parents who had _________ beliefs and were educated in _________school, with __________ medical condition etc. what would your beliefs be today? Consequences are not always the result ofpersonal choices. Natural disasters, health conditions etc. etc. Righteous choices do not always lead to happiness - take Jesus 12 disciples, 11 of them were brutally murdered. Telling kids their state of "happiness" is a result of their choice is wrong - the message "if you are not happy, it is because you are a sinner" is wrong. This life is a cruel test. Not tested beyond what you are able to bear? If you believe that, then those with good happy lives are weak and unable to bear much of anything. A better message - it is ok to not be happy about your situation. A bad situation does NOT mean you are being punished by God, a bad situation does NOT mean you are a sinner. Loss of freedom comes from disobedience? How about loss of freedom often comes from the situation you were born into - from being born into poverty, or born into an abusive family, or born into a repressive political regime, or born with a medical condition. None of us are free - and it is usually NOT because of disobedience that we are not free. A much healthier message for chapter 1 would be - some things - and only some things - in life are a choice, while other things are not a choice. For those few things you have control over do the best you can to follow moral principles. For those things you do not have a choice over, know you can grow closer to your Heavenly Family if you rely on them during hardships. Calvinistic nonsense. 😒
Calm Posted August 26, 2018 Posted August 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, mrmarklin said: Calvinistic nonsense. 😒 What in particular?
changed Posted August 27, 2018 Author Posted August 27, 2018 2 hours ago, mrmarklin said: Calvinistic nonsense. 😒 All I can say - Adam and Eve - and we all agree on Adam and Eve here - in a perfect world with perfect people, the dress code was to go naked... so.... 1
Calm Posted August 27, 2018 Posted August 27, 2018 Sinless, innocent perfection, yes...but were they developed mentally, emotionally, and spiritually as fully as they had potential? That is, imo, a different kind of perfection. 2
changed Posted August 31, 2018 Author Posted August 31, 2018 On 8/26/2018 at 1:26 PM, The Nehor said: Can you show me where it says that? "Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose right from wrong and to act for yourself. I agree that we can think for our self - but we are not always able to act for our self. Many of our actions are dictated by resources, health, environment. The first chapter really does have an "it's all on your shoulder's, it is all your fault/your responsibility" kind of message. A healthier message would be "there are some things you have a choice over, and other things you do not have a choice over." The hardest part of life is handling those things that are not a choice. On 8/26/2018 at 1:29 PM, rpn said: IME, living the gospel absolutely does result in happiness. What it may not do is result in our avoiding bad experiences, or bad actors, or even incorrect choices. Maybe "you can have purpose and meaning and joy and comfort through the gospel, even if you are dealing with hard or horrible things that are beyond what you think you can bear"? One one hand - not drinking alcohol, striving to be chaste until married, get an education - yes, those are all great things that most people aspire to. On the other hand - life is a test, and God seems to test his "chosen" people more than others. Consider what the Jewish people went through... consider that most of the original apostles (Mathew, Mark, Luke...) 11 of their lives ended with being brutally murdered in the most painful ways possible - singing "He will send blessings" might nee to be replaced with "he will send tests..." Do you strive to follow the commandments in order to be happy? ... if you try the experiment and instead of being happy you find yourself being crucified? Trying to follow God - you will not avoid bad situations, in fact, you will place yourself into more bad situations - you will have a harder time of it than you would otherwise. If you are going to help the poor, and mourn with those who mourn, and stand up to bullies - youa re putting yourself into painful bad situations .... On 8/26/2018 at 3:19 PM, Jane_Doe said: For a point of clarification here, the FTSOY package in no way attributes any of those situational things to being the result of that person's choices. Rather this chapter specifically talks about taking account of their individual actions, not everything/everyone's that happens in their life-- the bolded message is not even being said. Ignoring / avoiding / not discussing everything that is NOT our choice - the painful parts of life we have no control over - to ignore this elephant in the room is not good for kids. The message is "your choices determine your future and your life" when the message should be "Your life is partially determined by your own choices, and partially determined by your environment" - then honestly talking through how to handle and get resources for what they need... Remember, true freedom comes from using your agency to choose obedience; loss of freedom comes from choosing disobedience. True freedom comes from growing up in a prosperous area where you are given educational opportunities and health care... Most teenagers do not feel like they are "free to choose" anything. Their life is dictated by their parents and their community... "rebellious teenagers" are often teenagers who have been micromanaged and controlled to a point that they will do anything to gain even a little "freedom of choice". On 8/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, cinepro said: As others have pointed out, you'll be relieved to learn that the pamphlet doesn't actually say all the stuff that bothers you. Maybe you could excerpt actual claims from the site and address them individually? Here is a quote "you are free to choose your course of action" - do you believe teenagers are actually free to choose their course of action? They are free to choose which school to go to, and free to choose what church to go to, and free to choose what to eat for dinner, or free to choose where to live? Most teenagers - and many teenagers in the church, are not free to choose most of their actions... we can start there.
Avatar4321 Posted August 31, 2018 Posted August 31, 2018 Sorry but we are accountable for what we choose to do or not to. The idea that we have no choices or power is an idea that leads to hopelessness
The Nehor Posted August 31, 2018 Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, changed said: I agree that we can think for our self - but we are not always able to act for our self. Many of our actions are dictated by resources, health, environment. The first chapter really does have an "it's all on your shoulder's, it is all your fault/your responsibility" kind of message. A healthier message would be "there are some things you have a choice over, and other things you do not have a choice over." The hardest part of life is handling those things that are not a choice. One one hand - not drinking alcohol, striving to be chaste until married, get an education - yes, those are all great things that most people aspire to. On the other hand - life is a test, and God seems to test his "chosen" people more than others. Consider what the Jewish people went through... consider that most of the original apostles (Mathew, Mark, Luke...) 11 of their lives ended with being brutally murdered in the most painful ways possible - singing "He will send blessings" might nee to be replaced with "he will send tests..." Do you strive to follow the commandments in order to be happy? ... if you try the experiment and instead of being happy you find yourself being crucified? Trying to follow God - you will not avoid bad situations, in fact, you will place yourself into more bad situations - you will have a harder time of it than you would otherwise. If you are going to help the poor, and mourn with those who mourn, and stand up to bullies - youa re putting yourself into painful bad situations .... Ignoring / avoiding / not discussing everything that is NOT our choice - the painful parts of life we have no control over - to ignore this elephant in the room is not good for kids. The message is "your choices determine your future and your life" when the message should be "Your life is partially determined by your own choices, and partially determined by your environment" - then honestly talking through how to handle and get resources for what they need... True freedom comes from growing up in a prosperous area where you are given educational opportunities and health care... Most teenagers do not feel like they are "free to choose" anything. Their life is dictated by their parents and their community... "rebellious teenagers" are often teenagers who have been micromanaged and controlled to a point that they will do anything to gain even a little "freedom of choice". Here is a quote "you are free to choose your course of action" - do you believe teenagers are actually free to choose their course of action? They are free to choose which school to go to, and free to choose what church to go to, and free to choose what to eat for dinner, or free to choose where to live? Most teenagers - and many teenagers in the church, are not free to choose most of their actions... we can start there. So, you are not defending your original statement then? Edited August 31, 2018 by The Nehor
changed Posted August 31, 2018 Author Posted August 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: Sorry but we are accountable for what we choose to do or not to. The idea that we have no choices or power is an idea that leads to hopelessness Some things we choose, some things we do not choose. I did not say we have "no" choices - the point is some things are not a choice. Do you believe you choose 100% of your life?
changed Posted August 31, 2018 Author Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: So, you are not defending your original statement then? ??
Avatar4321 Posted August 31, 2018 Posted August 31, 2018 16 minutes ago, changed said: Some things we choose, some things we do not choose. I did not say we have "no" choices - the point is some things are not a choice. Do you believe you choose 100% of your life? Yes. I don’t know one aspect of my life I haven’t chosen or can change
changed Posted August 31, 2018 Author Posted August 31, 2018 19 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Yes. I don’t know one aspect of my life I haven’t chosen or can change You... chose what hospital you were born in, and what doctor delivered you, and you chose to live in your first house, and it was 100% your choice which school to go to, and... you chose your gender, and your race, and your health conditions...? wow - how were you able to pull that off? 1
pogi Posted August 31, 2018 Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: Some things we choose, some things we do not choose. I did not say we have "no" choices - the point is some things are not a choice. Do you believe you choose 100% of your life? No, the point is that the pamphlet doesn't disagree with you.
MiserereNobis Posted September 1, 2018 Posted September 1, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 1:57 PM, Avatar4321 said: Yes. I don’t know one aspect of my life I haven’t chosen or can change I know liberals, especially liberal academia, love to throw the word privileged around and I think sometimes they are really missing the mark with it, but man, you should look into the basic idea of privilege if you think every aspect of your life you have chosen or can change. Did you really mean it this way? 1
Popular Post cinepro Posted September 4, 2018 Popular Post Posted September 4, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 8:50 AM, changed said: Here is a quote "you are free to choose your course of action" - do you believe teenagers are actually free to choose their course of action? They are free to choose which school to go to, and free to choose what church to go to, and free to choose what to eat for dinner, or free to choose where to live? Most teenagers - and many teenagers in the church, are not free to choose most of their actions... we can start there. That's not a quote, that's a snippet. Do you really think the pamphlet is meaning to tell kids that they have the ability to choose which school to go to, which Church to go to, or what their family will have for dinner every night? Not only would it be untrue if they said that (as you point out), it would be stupid, because other than the Church decision, those decisions aren't really the kind of thing the Church even cares about, let alone God. So with that in mind, maybe it means something else. Maybe if we look at the words that come after your snippet, the truth will be revealed. Let's see... Quote While you are free to choose your course of action, you are not free to choose the consequences. Whether for good or bad, consequences follow as a natural result of the choices you make. Some sinful behavior may bring temporary, worldly pleasure, but such choices delay your progress and lead to heartache and misery. Righteous choices lead to lasting happiness and eternal life. Remember, true freedom comes from using your agency to choose obedience; loss of freedom comes from choosing disobedience. Ohhhhhhh, they're not talking about choosing what you have for dinner. They're talking about choosing whether to sin or not, or to keep the commandments (i.e. be obedient). That makes much more sense. That is something that teenagers do have control over, and that sounds like exactly the kind of things the Church would care about. 6
Judd Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 Nobody is seeing what you are seeing. Often times, but not always, that can be cause for self-reflection. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 2:22 AM, changed said: Be honest, if you were born in __________ country to _________ parents who had _________ beliefs and were educated in _________school, with __________ medical condition etc. what would your beliefs be today? Honest answer: If I'd been born in many parts of Melanesia prior to intensive Christianisation (around the 1980s), I would believe that it's perfectly normal for adult men to have sexual relationships with their wives for the purposes of reproduction but also necessary to have sexual relationships with older boys and young men as a preliminary to reproduction. You're right that I wouldn't have chosen these beliefs at all, but if you showed up and told me that everyone is born either 'gay' or 'straight' and I had to pick one, I wouldn't have had a clue what you were talking about. At all. 1
The Nehor Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 2:40 PM, changed said: ?? Your second complaint is nothing like your first. Your goalposts are running down the field. 1
changed Posted September 5, 2018 Author Posted September 5, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 3:01 AM, Hamba Tuhan said: ... but if you showed up and told me that everyone is born either 'gay' or 'straight' and I had to pick one, I wouldn't have had a clue what you were talking about. At all. Anyone the world over understands the question, "are you sexually attracted to males, females, both, or neither"
changed Posted September 5, 2018 Author Posted September 5, 2018 On 9/3/2018 at 10:30 PM, cinepro said: That's not a quote, that's a snippet. Do you really think the pamphlet is meaning to tell kids that they have the ability to choose which school to go to, which Church to go to, or what their family will have for dinner every night? Not only would it be untrue if they said that (as you point out), it would be stupid, because other than the Church decision, those decisions aren't really the kind of thing the Church even cares about, let alone God. So with that in mind, maybe it means something else. Maybe if we look at the words that come after your snippet, the truth will be revealed. Let's see... "While you are free to choose your course of action, you are not free to choose the consequences. ..." Ohhhhhhh, they're not talking about choosing what you have for dinner. They're talking about choosing whether to sin or not, or to keep the commandments (i.e. be obedient). That makes much more sense. That is something that teenagers do have control over, and that sounds like exactly the kind of things the Church would care about. It states again "while you are free to choose your course of actions" - this is not true. We are not always free to choose our course of actions.
Calm Posted September 5, 2018 Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: Anyone the world over understands the question, "are you sexually attracted to males, females, both, or neither" I think a number would be clueless about why you were asking.
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