Woman Denied Temple Recommend for ...

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That really is bizarre, isn't it? 

Yeah...I think I might have lost it at that point.  That's soooooooooo not okay to say.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

It's not as if a blanket has to be big, uncomfortable, or heavy weight... a small light-weight baby blanket would be sufficient... (I absolutely believe she should cover as a matter of simple courtesy and modesty).

GG

I’ve never seen a nursing blanket that was big and heavy. 

[clarkgoble]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It's from the story.  Her husband alleges, during a discussion wherein the both of them were in the Stake President's office, she became emotional and left the room.  The SP allegedly turned to the husband and counseled him to "control [his] wife" or he would lose his recommend, too.  He lost his recommend.

Completely inappropriate too. Again, assuming what's been made public is accurate (no guarantees) I'm not sure they had a lot of alternative to going public. Hopefully the brethren "consult" with the Stake President on this issue.

 

13 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

It's not as if a blanket has to be big, uncomfortable, or heavy weight... a small light-weight baby blanket would be sufficient... (I absolutely believe she should cover as a matter of simple courtesy and modesty).

To be completely fair not all babies like blankets over them. It's conceivable that in this case that was the issue. Again though details like this are missing from the story. Which is why I'm loath to say too much.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think I understand both sides of this one. I get why the mother doesn't want to put a blanket over her baby while nursing and the feeling that breastfeeding should be more normalized. I understand why she doesn't want to sit in (from what I've seen in multiple buildings) a small closet-like room that reeks of dirty diapers. Breastfeeding can only be normalized if there is progress in its acceptance in public. Seems fairly reasonable to me.

I understand why a leader might instruct a woman to cover up. The church is extremely "modesty sensitive" so I'm not surprised by that request.

But it's a problem, IMO, for a leader to feel that he has the right to command/order a woman to breastfeed in a certain way, and then, when she doesn't comply, inflicts severe consequences. It's an abuse of power and quite arrogant for a leader to truly believe that if the woman doesn't breastfeed how she is told, then she isn't worthy to attend the temple. Honestly, think about that. If I declare in the name of God that you aren't worthy because you didn't do what I told you, then IMO I would be taking the name of God in vain and way overestimating my own importance and authority. It's not so much about the breast feeding as it is an abuse of power.

Quote

Smac- Second, members of the Church should not seek to use adverse news coverage to embarrass or coerce local leaders into capitulation.

I'm curious what other reasonable solutions she may have. Go to the 70, if she can figure out who it is and how to make contact. He will likely be someone she doesn't know and doesn't have any kind of personal relationship with, whereas the 70 would know and have a relationship with the SP. The SP would likely also inform and influence the 70 before she ever got to him. There is a weakness in the ecclesiastical system when for all intents and purposes the SP is the law. If the SP is abusive or unreasonable there isn't really a useful method for someone to seek remediation.

Finally, I'll just add that some women are very good and "modest" even if they don't cover up. Some aren't. So I really can't know if this woman was being modest or not. Therefore I can't know if the command to cover up is reasonable or not.

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

It's not as if a blanket has to be big, uncomfortable, or heavy weight... a small light-weight baby blanket would be sufficient... (I absolutely believe she should cover as a matter of simple courtesy and modesty).

GG

I know that with my wife, every one of our kids hated having a blanket over their heads when she was nursing (and almost made it impossible for her to nurse like that).  There is no need for a blanket, if the Mother is discreet and I've seen many nurse without a blanket where you can hardly tell they are actually nursing a baby.  I agree their needs to be consideration of others (that's why I stated "do so very discreetly").

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

It really is a cultural thing, especially in the United States. In Bolivia, for example, breastfeeding uncovered in public is not a big deal at all. I've seen women breastfeeding uncovered on a park bench, on a bus, while taking the missionary discussions, and pretty much everywhere. I remember baptizing a man, his wife, and the wife's sister in a town in southern Bolivia. Both of the women were nursing babies at the time, and when they changed into the white dresses for their baptism, both women put the dress on backwards, with the zipper in front. While I was giving a talk about baptism, both unzipped the dresses and nursed their babies in the front row. 

I don't understand the idea that breastfeeding in public is immodest because it leads men to have lustful thoughts. Maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't find breastfeeding even remotely arousing. I'm sure there are some folks out there with a breastfeeding fetish, but I've never met one. Should we ban women wearing tennis shoes or raincoats because some pervs find that arousing? 

I don't know these people, so I can't say if they could have handled things better. Maybe they tried to work through church channels and were rebuffed. But this seems like a whole lot of nothing to me, certainly not something worthy of pulling someone's temple recommend.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't understand the idea that breastfeeding in public is immodest because it leads men to have lustful thoughts. Maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't find breastfeeding even remotely arousing. I'm sure there are some folks out there with a breastfeeding fetish, but I've never met one. Should we ban women wearing tennis shoes or raincoats because some pervs find that arousing? 

This!  Anything can be, and probably has been, fetishized.  We can't keep bowing to the fetishists to adjust our behavior.

[JAHS]

23 minutes ago, Anijen said:

On my mission (Marshall Islands 1983-85), the mothers would never cover up during sacrament meeting while breastfeeding their babies.

Moreover, they sometimes would pass their babies to other mothers who would then breastfeed the other moms child.

Even more, they sometimes would openly breastfeed their babies while bearing their testimonies.

I agree, it was not the open breastfeeding that took away her temple privileges, but the attitude against her ward leader.

Having said that, perhaps I am in the minority here, I think the Bishop asking her to cover up and other members near her reaction to a natural thing was a bit much, tempest in a teacup (or is it teapot?).  I think it is more cultural conflict than something wrong. I could be mistaken...

In your Marshall islands case I agree it's different strokes for different folks depending on the culture you are living in.  It was considered very normal there, but that's not the case in this case. 
And it's not a sexual thing, but because it is not the norm in the mainland American LDS culture to openly breast feed in church without covering up, it can be distracting. 
Trying not to be judgmental here, but with her kind of defiant attitude towards not sustaining her church leaders I think it was right not to give her the temple recommend, especially after going to the media about it.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve never seen a nursing blanket that was big and heavy. 

Some babies won't nurse (or nurse well) if a blanket is over their heads.  It doesn't' matter if it's a heavy blanket or not.  I know this was the case for my wife and our babies....she finally just gave up and covered as best she could.  I think they make such excellent nursing blouses and dresses now (with the slits in them, etc.) that there is no need for a blanket (or anything over the baby's head) if the Mother is discreet and covers up.

Edited July 26, 2018 by ALarson

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Some babies won't nurse (or nurse well) if a blanket is over their heads.  It doesn't' matter if it's a heavy blanket or not.  I know this was the case for my wife and our babies....she finally just gave up and covered as best she could.  I think they make such excellent nursing blouses and dresses now (with the slits in them, etc.) that there is no need for a blanket (or anything over the baby's head) if the Mother is discreet and covers up.

This was how most of my babies were too.  They hated me covering their heads and faces with a blanket!  Squirmed and balked  every time 😐

They get hot and sweaty even with a light blanket too (and maybe it’s a clostrophobic reaction?)

So, no.  A blanket isn’t always a good solution!  Works for some, but not all.  I found I could cover up well without one though.  I don’t know how the woman was nursing (if she tried to be careful and cover as much as possible), that’s something that is pertinent to know, I think.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

Never mind.

Edited July 26, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Danzo]

This is a completely american cultural thing.

Most places in the world, no one would bat an eye at a mother breastfeeding in public.

Any man who is aroused by breastfeeding would probably be aroused by just about anything. 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

How would you know that without more details?  Is it offensive to you when you see a Mother nursing her child in public?

if we waited to have all of the details, there wouldn't be anything to discuss on this board.

[ALarson]

Just now, Danzo said:

if we waited to have all of the details, there wouldn't be anything to discuss on this board.

Ha!  True  

[CV75]

I tried to get interested in this topic but i just can't latch on.

[clarkgoble]

30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But it's a problem, IMO, for a leader to feel that he has the right to command/order a woman to breastfeed in a certain way, and then, when she doesn't comply, inflicts severe consequences. It's an abuse of power and quite arrogant for a leader to truly believe that if the woman doesn't breastfeed how she is told, then she isn't worthy to attend the temple.

I don't think we know all the story and in cases like this I'm skeptical what's presented is completely accurate. Further from what has been presented I think the SP went well beyond what's appropriate (again assuming what's presented is generally accurate - there may well be some other issues here). All that said though, exactly what options do the Stake President and Bishop have if the woman in question doesn't want to cover up? Honest question.

Let's say hypothetically (not claiming this of this case) that the woman just feels that breasts are non-sexual and that women shouldn't cover up. She just wants to drop her top openly, display her breast and feed the baby. She refuses when asked to cover up to do anything. This offends people around her. What should the Bishop do? Ask her to leave?

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[ALarson]

52 minutes ago, ttribe said:

If true, the whole "control your wife" thing - NOT OKAY.

And this....(not okay either):

Quote

 women should cover up so that men do not have sexual thoughts

When speaking to a Mother about nursing her baby.

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

This is a completely american cultural thing.

Most places in the world, no one would bat an eye at a mother breastfeeding in public.

Any man who is aroused by breastfeeding would probably be aroused by just about anything. 

Like the pants she's wearing?

 

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And this....(not okay either):

When speaking to a Mother about nursing her baby.

Ugh!  I hope he wouldn’t have said that (or any church leader).  

[stemelbow]

40 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's not so much about the breast feeding as it is an abuse of power.

That's my take.  I can't imagine people getting worked up because someone nurses anymore.  I guess people still do.  But whatever.  People complain about everything.  It's pretty stupid sounding if the SP refused a temple recommend though.  It feels just as HJW put it--an abuse of power.  He should repent of his seeming over-reaction and move on.  

[clarkgoble]

27 minutes ago, Danzo said:

This is a completely american cultural thing.

Most places in the world, no one would bat an eye at a mother breastfeeding in public.

Any man who is aroused by breastfeeding would probably be aroused by just about anything. 

Few Americans are bothered by women breastfeeding in public. It's more the issue of getting things ready for the baby that I think was at issue, if I understand the story. But go to your local mall and you're apt to see a mother or two feeding their baby with no one batting an eye.

To your "arousal" issue, I don't think that's really at issue. Put an other way, no one should be aroused by someone relieving themselves, but we still have separate bathrooms and don't subject women to seeing dudes whipping it out for the urinal. I doubt the women who don't want to see it are saying that because of fear they'd become aroused. The focus on arousal by both sides seems silly. Not all modesty is tied to arousal. It's unfortunate some on both sides tie it to such.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

I’ve said I believe, and I do, that the mother here is behaving unreasonably. At the same time, I can understand and agree with the pushback against societal intolerance of breastfeeding in public when done discreetly.

Some years ago, there was an incident at a restaurant in Utah where a customer complained about a woman discreetly breastfeeding her infant. A restaurant employee told the mother to go into the restroom, and when she refused, asked her to leave. 

I felt then and still do that the proper thing to have done would have been for the restaurant employee to tell the complaining customer (in a diplomatic way) to get over it or take his business elsewhere. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[SouthernMo]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I tried to get interested in this topic but i just can't latch on.

Really?  I’m going to milk this thread for all it’s worth.

[CA Steve]

29 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I tried to get interested in this topic but i just can't latch on.

That's because you are not keeping abreast of the story.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve said I believe, and I do, that the mother here is behaving unreasonably. At the same time, I can understand and agree with the pushback against societal intolerance of breastfeeding in public when done discreetly.

Some years ago, there was an incident at a restaurant in Utah where a customer complained about a woman discreetly breastfeeding her infant. A customer complained about it (I guess he said it was spoiling his appetite or something). The restaurant employee told the mother to go into the restroom, and when she refused, asked her to leave. 

I felt then that the proper thing to have done would have been for the restaurant employee to tell the complaining customer (in a diplomatic way) to get over it or take his business elsewhere. 

I don't see how the woman in the story is being unreasonable at all.  

But...

I chimed in to say I agree very much with your sentiments regarding the story in the restaurant.