Is ldsliving denying Woodruff's journal?

[provoman]

There is a recent article on ldsliving titled

"John Taylor's Pocket Watch Saving His Life + Other Popular Myths About the Early Church You Thought Were True"

The "+ other myths .. you thought were true" is about Wildford Woodruff and the founding father of the United States. The article is being used by critics of the Church to prove the false things that LDS people beleive. 

While the article references Woodruffs journal as to the Found Fathers and the article acknowledges that their Temple work was done; it appears the reason for the article "other myths you thought were true" is to declare Woodruff's statement in his personal journal  false and unreliable.

Edited July 2, 2018 by provoman

[EdGoble]

https://juvenileinstructor.org/14049/

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq

Neil and Gayle Ord conclusively proved the watch story to be unreliable in their original research.

Edited July 2, 2018 by EdGoble

[Jeanne]

Thank you for these links..somebody needs to make pamphlets or something to let us know was is true..what is myths..I grew up believing so many of the now.."myths"..

[provoman]

30 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for these links..somebody needs to make pamphlets or something to let us know was is true..what is myths..I grew up believing so many of the now.."myths"..

what do consider to be part of "the so many myths"?

 

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, provoman said:

what do consider to be part of "the so many myths"?

 

http://holyfetch.com/elevators-in-salt-lake-temple-inspired/

This website has several categories to choose from. The above is one I have been told in Sunday school. I don't know if this is what you were wondering about with Jeanne, but wanted to share how many myths are out there. 

[Jeanne]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://holyfetch.com/elevators-in-salt-lake-temple-inspired/

This website has several categories to choose from. The above is one I have been told in Sunday school. I don't know if this is what you were wondering about with Jeanne, but wanted to share how many myths are out there. 

Thank you Tacenda...there are a lot of stories..that were just or misinterpreted. 

[cinepro]

For those who like this topic, I suggest listening to this Church-produced podcast from years ago.

Mormon Myths

Quote

We have all heard them: stories of mysterious empty spaces in the Salt Lake Temple that turn out to be the perfect size for elevators 50 years later. Or Jaredite barges found in Lake Michigan. Join members of the Church History Department as they set the record straight on Mormon Myths

 

[JAHS]

Regarding the shooting at the Carthage jail; for the longest time the tour guides at the jail never mention the pistol Joseph used to fire at the mob.
They would only say that all they had for defense was the canes they used to knock down the guns of the attackers. 
Does anyone know if they are still only saying that or do they mention the guns now also? I don't know why they couldn't just tell the whole story in the first place.
I am assuming they don't mention it because it makes Joseph look less like a martyr. But I would think it would make the story more interesting.
Joseph could still be considered a martyr with or without the gun. 
 

[sunstoned]

This must of happened before my time.  Because I learned that JS had a pistol (a pepperbox) in early morning seminary.  I latter saw the pistol on display in the church museum in SLC.  Still later, I toured Carthage Jail as a missionary and the pistol and JS defending himself was part of the narrative. 

[Calm]

It has been in the Institute manual since the 70s, picture in the Church History in the Fulness of Times manual.  But if tour guides are trained by those who weren't taught it and then they train others....Not everyone takes the CH Institute class (I didn't).

Edited July 3, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, cinepro said:

For those who like this topic, I suggest listening to this Church-produced podcast from years ago.

Mormon Myths

 

That’s a great episode. Thanks for posting this. 

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, provoman said:

There is a recent article on ldsliving titled

"John Taylor's Pocket Watch Saving His Life + Other Popular Myths About the Early Church You Thought Were True"

The "+ other myths .. you thought were true" is about Wildford Woodruff and the founding father of the United States. The article is being used by critics of the Church to prove the false things that LDS people beleive. 

While the article references Woodruffs journal as to the Found Fathers and the article acknowledges that their Temple work was done; it appears the reason for the article "other myths you thought were true" is to declare Woodruff's statement in his personal journal  false and unreliable.

There were other witnesses of the Founding Fathers- I have read their testimonies which have come down in family histories.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This must of happened before my time.  Because I learned that JS had a pistol (a pepperbox) in early morning seminary.  I latter saw the pistol on display in the church museum in SLC.  Still later, I toured Carthage Jail as a missionary and the pistol and JS defending himself was part of the narrative. 

Why on earth would he take a pistol to seminary??

Certain proof he was a ruffian!

 

[provoman]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There were other witnesses of the Founding Fathers- I have read their testimonies which have come down in family histories.

Well according to ldsliving, what you read are myths and didn't happen. 

Frankly I cant believe ldsliving was so inept as to suggest Wilford Woodruff wrote a false story in his journal.

Hopefully ldsliving.com will see the error and ammo it has created for adversaries and correct the article.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

Well according to ldsliving, what you read are myths and didn't happen. 

Frankly I cant believe ldsliving was so inept as to suggest Wilford Woodruff wrote a false story in his journal.

Hopefully ldsliving.com will see the error and ammo it has created for adversaries and correct the article.

One of the witnesses I am citing was the temple recorder at the time. His descendants who are in our Ward, have his journals and occasionally show them to others in the ward. Frankly it was remarkable for me to see them because I am of a skeptical bent myself however have had enough religious experience to believe that such things do in fact happen. 

Since this second account is so obscure I cannot imagine it would be some kind of conspiracy between the two of them. 

The second account is just a brother writing in his journal, and is quite matter of fact.

He also gives the names of two other brothers who were present and were witnesses.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

18 hours ago, JAHS said:

Regarding the shooting at the Carthage jail; for the longest time the tour guides at the jail never mention the pistol Joseph used to fire at the mob.
They would only say that all they had for defense was the canes they used to knock down the guns of the attackers. 
Does anyone know if they are still only saying that or do they mention the guns now also? I don't know why they couldn't just tell the whole story in the first place.
I am assuming they don't mention it because it makes Joseph look less like a martyr. But I would think it would make the story more interesting.
Joseph could still be considered a martyr with or without the gun. 
 

It's been a very, very long time since I was there but they mentioned guns at the time. But my experience with most Church history sites is that the people doing the tours aren't too knowledgeable. To be fair, my experience at federal equivalents has been the same.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

Well according to ldsliving, what you read are myths and didn't happen. 

Frankly I cant believe ldsliving was so inept as to suggest Wilford Woodruff wrote a false story in his journal.

Hopefully ldsliving.com will see the error and ammo it has created for adversaries and correct the article.

I’d encourage you to do your own research on this before you weigh in so strongly about whether or not something happened. You’ll discover:

—Many of the “founding fathers’” work had already been done (multiple times) before Wilford Woodruff claimed to have had this vision. Multiple journal and church records from years earlier support this.  Why would these founding fathers then complain to Wilford Woodruff about their work not being done?

—Wilford Woodruff was an immaculate record keeper in volume and consistency, but like many at the time, prone to hyperbole at times. Read his journal (first hand) in the days after he claimed to have had this vision; you will find no mention of this vision. He did perform proxy work for signers of the Declaration of Independence after August 18, 1877 (supposed date of the vision). He only claimed to have had this vision a month after this date. He then recounted this story a number of times until his death decades later.  I admit - this would be an awesome story to hear if it were true.  He’s likely trying to emphasize how important it is to engage in ordinance work for the dead.

Why would he have not recorded this vision immediately after it happened?  Such a prolific consistent writer somehow forgets to record this immediately after it happens?  It makes no sense that this can both have happened, but not recorded it. It is out of character for him.  The frequent retelling of a story (nor how many people testify the story is retold) does not enhance its truthfulness. 

We can’t know for certain what Woodruff did or did not see.  But, the evidence to support his claim of a vision is not there.

Why is this a big deal?  I want my faith & belief to be based on true stories/events.

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

—Many of the “founding fathers’” work had already been done (multiple times) before Wilford Woodruff claimed to have had this vision. Multiple journal and church records from years earlier support this.  Why would these founding fathers then complain to Wilford Woodruff about their work not being done?

That's interesting.  This isn't a topic or event from church history that I've read much about.  Do you have sources showing the founding fathers' work had already been done?

I know there are a lot of duplicate ordinances done today as well.

Edited July 3, 2018 by ALarson

[Duncan]

31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’d encourage you to do your own research on this before you weigh in so strongly about whether or not something happened. You’ll discover:

—Many of the “founding fathers’” work had already been done (multiple times) before Wilford Woodruff claimed to have had this vision. Multiple journal and church records from years earlier support this.  Why would these founding fathers then complain to Wilford Woodruff about their work not being done?

—Wilford Woodruff was an immaculate record keeper in volume and consistency, but like many at the time, prone to hyperbole at times. Read his journal (first hand) in the days after he claimed to have had this vision; you will find no mention of this vision. He did perform proxy work for signers of the Declaration of Independence after August 18, 1877 (supposed date of the vision). He only claimed to have had this vision a month after this date. He then recounted this story a number of times until his death decades later.  I admit - this would be an awesome story to hear if it were true.  He’s likely trying to emphasize how important it is to engage in ordinance work for the dead.

Why would he have not recorded this vision immediately after it happened?  Such a prolific consistent writer somehow forgets to record this immediately after it happens?  It makes no sense that this can both have happened, but not recorded it. It is out of character for him.  The frequent retelling of a story (nor how many people testify the story is retold) does not enhance its truthfulness. 

We can’t know for certain what Woodruff did or did not see.  But, the evidence to support his claim of a vision is not there.

Why is this a big deal?  I want my faith & belief to be based on true stories/events.

The work done was baptisms and endowments for the dead, which was a new thing being done. This was done in the St. George Temple. He mentions getting men and sisters prepared for the endowment work in his Aug. 21 entry

no, he wrote about it in his Sunday Aug. 19, 1877 diary account,  “I spent the evening in preparing a list of the noted men of the 17 century and 18th, including the signers of the Declaration of Independence and presidents of the United States, for baptism on Tuesday the 21 Aug 1877." then the work was done on the 21st, he wrote he was assisted by Bro. John McAllister. he publicly told people in Sept. that the work was done 

“They waited on me for two days and two nights,” he said,

“I thought it very singular, that notwithstanding so much work had been done, and yet nothing had been done for them.” (Journal of Discourses, 19:229.)

Edited July 3, 2018 by Duncan

[cinepro]

On 7/2/2018 at 8:00 AM, provoman said:

There is a recent article on ldsliving titled

"John Taylor's Pocket Watch Saving His Life + Other Popular Myths About the Early Church You Thought Were True"

The "+ other myths .. you thought were true" is about Wildford Woodruff and the founding father of the United States. The article is being used by critics of the Church to prove the false things that LDS people beleive. 

While the article references Woodruffs journal as to the Found Fathers and the article acknowledges that their Temple work was done; it appears the reason for the article "other myths you thought were true" is to declare Woodruff's statement in his personal journal  false and unreliable.

First, here is the actual link to the article.

Here is what it says about the Founding Fathers story:

Quote

Some have questioned Woodruff’s recollection of the appearance on the basis that baptisms—the main function of the Endowment Houses—had, in fact, been done (several times) for many of the Founding Fathers. Why would they have specifically referenced the Endowment House if their baptisms had already been performed? 

It’s hard to say why this would have been the thrust of his recollection, but it is important to remember that, while Woodruff recalled them making reference only to the Endowment House, he did not think his responsibility was discharged with simply completing the baptisms. There had, in fact, been “nothing” done in the way of endowments—an important ordinance Woodruff made a point of completing for these people at this time. He specifically recorded his and other temple patrons’ efforts for these people in journal entries August 21 through 24. All endowments for those baptized in August were completed by February 1878.

Interestingly, not only was temple work completed for the Founding Fathers, but work was completed for other “eminent” men and women—including Abraham Lincoln, Americus Vespucius, Charlotte Bronte, Christopher Columbus, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Jane Austen, John Wesley, Marie Antoinette, Martha Washington, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Washington Irving.

 

Oddly, there was a previous article that looked at the issue in more depth and seems to have answered some of the questions being raised:

What You Didn't Know About the Founding Father's Temple Work

I think this note about the source of the other "eminent men" is interesting.  Apparently, he got the names from a book that was popular at the time:

Quote

Woodruff was very clear in his accounts of the vision that only the Signers and Washington appeared to him. To find the extra 46 men, Woodruff turned to a set of books titled Portrait Gallery of Eminent Men and Women of Europe and America by Evert A. Duyckinck. The popular two-volume set was a compilation of biographies of famous people.

With only a few exceptions, Woodruff took the names of the 46 from these books. The biographies are in the same non-alphabetical order in the books as they are in his listing of names in his journal. Most of the eminent women are also either in the books under their own biographies or are wives of those men he copied from the books. Christopher Columbus and John Wesley are two examples, however, of the few names that he chose not from these books.

 

 

 

[provoman]

19 minutes ago, cinepro said:

First, here is the actual link to the article.

Here is what it says about the Founding Fathers story:

 

Oddly, there was a previous article that looked at the issue in more depth and seems to have answered some of the questions being raised:

What You Didn't Know About the Founding Father's Temple Work

I think this note about the source of the other "eminent men" is interesting.  Apparently, he got the names from a book that was popular at the time:

 

 

 

I saw that article as well. So why would ldsliving label it a myth. And because it is labeled a myth by virtue of it placement in an article about myths, critics of the Church are waving the victory banner that it is infact a myth and Woodruff is a liar.

[cinepro]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

I saw that article as well. So why would ldsliving label it a myth. And because it is labeled a myth by virtue of it placement in an article about myths, critics of the Church are waving the victory banner that it is infact a myth and Woodruff is a liar.

The story about the Founding Fathers is one of the most obscure footnotes in Church History.  Honestly, if calling it a "myth" has gotten members and non-members alike to care this much about it, then I think it's a good thing.

[Duncan]

33 minutes ago, provoman said:

I saw that article as well. So why would ldsliving label it a myth. And because it is labeled a myth by virtue of it placement in an article about myths, critics of the Church are waving the victory banner that it is infact a myth and Woodruff is a liar.

certain critics don't do their own research and rely on others to do the digging and research

[clarkgoble]

46 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The story about the Founding Fathers is one of the most obscure footnotes in Church History.  Honestly, if calling it a "myth" has gotten members and non-members alike to care this much about it, then I think it's a good thing.

I've heard it enough that I have a hard time calling it "the most obscure footnote." I could list lots of more obscure yet important stories. Things like Brigham Young's visit from Joseph Smith while suffering from high fevers regarding adoption. For the Woodruff story about the founders it's appeared in the Woodruff priesthood manual, been mentioned in conference, appeared regularly in the Ensign and so forth.

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Read his journal (first hand) in the days after he claimed to have had this vision; you will find no mention of this vision. He did perform proxy work for signers of the Declaration of Independence after August 18, 1877 (supposed date of the vision). He only claimed to have had this vision a month after this date. He then recounted this story a number of times until his death decades later.  I admit - this would be an awesome story to hear if it were true.  He’s likely trying to emphasize how important it is to engage in ordinance work for the dead.

I'm not sure I'd call this a myth though. It seems odd to say it didn't happen simply because Woodruff recorded it a month later. That's still pretty soon to the event.

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've heard it enough that I have a hard time calling it "the most obscure footnote." I could list lots of more obscure yet important stories. Things like Brigham Young's visit from Joseph Smith while suffering from high fevers regarding adoption. For the Woodruff story about the founders it's appeared in the Woodruff priesthood manual, been mentioned in conference, appeared regularly in the Ensign and so forth.

I'm not sure I'd call this a myth though. It seems odd to say it didn't happen simply because Woodruff recorded it a month later. That's still pretty soon to the event.

it's obscure here in Canada! I don't even know what the declaration from independance even is! or who signed or what have you. I could look it up but I am already drinking McDonalds so that's enough USA for one day🛑