Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 13 hours ago, jkwilliams said: At 19, I couldn't decide if he was uber-spiritual or just weird/creepy. Guess I have my answer now. I've grown to the point in my life where I could conceivably be called "über-spiritual", but I find myself less concerned over "purity" issues than ever. One of my companions told me about an elder he knew who was constantly worried about sexual matters, including blouses cut too low, skirts cut too high, sisters sitting on the stand so you could see too much (in a meeting hall where there was no "stand", per se), and so on. It appeared that he was having a personal problem dealing with his own urges, and was eventually sent home early.
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 9 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I have a great memory for insignificant details, which helped in writing my book. And I'm going to take a second here to endorse John's book. I read it and greatly enjoyed it! 3
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Duncan said: Rex Williams was the President, I remember because I had never heard the name Rex before. One of his counselours was a Merrill Frost. I remember that because he and his wife both spoke and they took pot shots at each other and they were savage to each other!!!!!!!!! We had Harvey Black and Susan Easton Black as my Branch President and wife, I had heard her at a BYU education week and was blown away she was at the MTC, I never really talked to her much, I was too nervous!!!!!!!!! We had a Norman Faldmo and Parley Newman as counselours. I remember Bro. Newman because he had some connection, IIRC to WW2 and my comp and I got into this big debate about what happened first, the bombings of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, he said Nagasaki and I said Hiroshima and Bro. Newman confirmed that I was correct, and I was, to my companion, how do you not know this?????!!!!!!!!!! this is your own history man!!! how do I as a Canadian know this and you don't? gee willy wonkers! and Norman Faldmo, I figured how many people do you meet in life named Norman Faldmo? all were fantastic branch presidency members!!!! How many Canadians know about the failed Dieppe raid in 1942, which was carried out predominantly by Canadian troops? Everyone has blanks in their knowledge, sometimes even astonishing blanks.
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm afraid the jolliest adventure I can muster is the three-day car-camping trip I'm going on next week with two of my sons to three national parks in southeastern Utah and Colorado. Early in our marriage, my wife described how she took the ward's young women out for some "proper camping", which meant to her having a water standpipe available. I about laughed myself unconscious at this "proper camping". The Old Infantryman in me, you know. I guess I mistook "proper" for "real". It was "proper" because one could observe proper cleanliness using abundant available water. To me, "proper camping" is "real camping", meaning that the only water available is what you carried or what you could find in the creek or lake. The best proper camping I ever did was to hike through Mount Rainier National Park carrying all my own food, water and shelter, and not seeing another human over a three day period. It was glorious. 3
Duncan Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: How many Canadians know about the failed Dieppe raid in 1942, which was carried out predominantly by Canadian troops? Everyone has blanks in their knowledge, sometimes even astonishing blanks. um, everyone!!!!!!!!!!!! it's been talked about on TV and things liked that for years and years!
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Several times while I was in the MTC, he told the story of a vision he had had, where the MTC was surrounded by black demons as far as the eye could see. But there was a ring of angels protecting the MTC and keeping the demons out. I heard a remnant of this story at least once during my time at the MTC. I just rolled my eyes. I believe in demons (black ones???), angels and visions, but none of this felt authentic to me at any point. I had no idea it had ever been shared by an MTC president (or two?). Without doubt, my MTC experience was the worst part of my entire mission. If there were demons targetting the place, they certainly weren't on the outside. Nearly every authority figure I had much to do with left me feeling like I'd stepped out of the comfortable and peaceful familiarity of the gospel into an alien landscape where the words sounded familiar but nothing felt right. I was genuinely scared much of the time ... and frequently singled out in a way that felt completely aribrary. It was the first time in my life I'd ever been treated so badly. I remember writing letters to my mum and dad telling them I thought I'd somehow ended up in a facility run by a completely different church. Thankfully, everything went back to normal once I left. If it hadn't, I never would have been able to complete my mission. Edited June 22, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: One of my companions told me about an elder he knew who was constantly worried about sexual matters, including blouses cut too low, skirts cut too high, sisters sitting on the stand so you could see too much (in a meeting hall where there was no "stand", per se), and so on. It appeared that he was having a personal problem dealing with his own urges, and was eventually sent home early. During the final year of my masters study in America, I served as the president of both the Institute council in our stake and the LDSSA chapter on campus. We received a letter that year from the president of the Twelve asking us, as part of pilot program, to invite year 12 students to our annual YSA convention. Our CES director dutifully sent out the invitations to all stake and district presidents in our area, explaining the request. A number of local leaders then contacted him and vehemently argued against this invitation, raising all kinds of potential chastity issues, including needing to protect these young people from 'predatory' YSAs. (This was near the end of the academic year, and all of these 'youth' were within two months or so of being classed as YSA in their own rights.) Confused and surprised, the CES director rang Church headquarters and spoke directly with one of the apostles. I wasn't on the phone, but he told me later the apostle had said something about how sad it was that these bishops and branch presidents were obviously wrestling with their own demons. I've never forgot that insight. Edited June 22, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 3
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Duncan said: um, everyone!!!!!!!!!!!! it's been talked about on TV and things liked that for years and years! I betcha you could find someone who hadn't heard of it, nevertheless. I'm pretty sure that most yanks know that Hiroshima came first.
jkwilliams Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I heard a remnant of this story at least once during my time at the MTC. I just rolled my eyes. I believe in demons (black ones???), angels and visions, but none of this felt authentic to me at any point. I had no idea it had ever been shared by an MTC president (or two?). Without doubt, my MTC experience was the worst part of my entire mission. If there were demons targetting the place, they certainly weren't on the outside. Nearly every authority figure I had much to do with left me feeling like I'd stepped out of the comfortable and peaceful familiarity of the gospel into an alien landscape where the words sounded familiar but nothing felt right. I was genuinely scared much of the time ... and frequently singled out in a way that felt completely aribrary. It was the first time in my life I'd ever been treated so badly. I remember writing letters to my mum and dad telling them I thought I'd somehow ended up in a facility run by a completely different church. Thankfully, everything went back to normal once I left. If it hadn't, I never would have been able to complete my mission. I hated the MTC, to be honest. It was exhausting, I didn't get along with my rather self-righteous companion, and there was this constant refrain that we needed to repent of anything we hadn't confessed already. So, I was trying desperately to do all the missionary stuff, as well as trying to "love" my companion (we couldn't have the spirit if I didn't), and wracking my brain for any possible sin I hadn't resolved. It was a relief to get to Bolivia and find at least a little normality. ETA: What does it say about the MTC that it was less stressful to live in a place without running water, with poor food, and political and economic unrest? Edited June 22, 2018 by jkwilliams 3
hope_for_things Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Since thoughts precede actions....Bro Bishop certainly put some thought and planning into his actions...we should be very careful what we think about. Repeated thoughts create neural pathways that can become problematic if not checked. God, Jesus, and the Prophets have warned us about this many times. I think its really much more complicated than that. I'm not so sure we have that much control over our thoughts. Mindfulness has helped me think about this a little differently, with respect to the thoughts that come into my mind. I think the idea that we have to control out thoughts can be very harmful at times because trying to control thoughts can often lead to more obsessive thinking about that very thing you're trying not to think about. At any rate, I think the whole theology about thoughts is problematic. Thoughts don't always lead to actions, they often don't lead to any actions at all. And we react before consciously thinking all the time. The traditional teachings around controlling our thoughts does square with modern neuroscience or psychology.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: There was this constant refrain that we needed to repent of anything we hadn't confessed already. I will never understand what exactly got into my psycho branch president, but from the first time he laid eyes on me, he determined that I was an unrepentant sinner. I think he must have summoned me to his office 2-3 times/week every week I was there for what started to feel like a Twilight Zone episode. Although I'd explained to him that I was fully worthy to serve during our first meeting, he would still call me into his office, tell me that God had told him otherwise, and ask me if I was ready to confess. Then I would just stare at him whilst he stared at me. For a long, long time. Eventually he'd remind me that, when I was ready to talk, I just had to contact him, and then he'd dismiss me. This played out over and over and over again. Thankfully, my parents had done a good job of instilling some pretty good resilience in me. I genuinely wondered if other missionaries just cracked and made stuff up or what. What I remember most was how ungodly it all felt. I wasn't used to that. My every experience in the Church before the MTC had been of love and joy and patience and genuine inspiration. Edited June 22, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
smac97 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Posted June 22, 2018 15 hours ago, bluebell said: That's impressive. I have no idea who the MTC president was when I was there and I would never be able to recognize him. I dimly recall my branch president and his wife but those are the only leaders I remember (other than my teachers). Same here. No recollection of the MTC prez at all. I remember my branch president was an older guy with gray hair, but that's it. However, my teachers . . . Sister Knaphus, Sister Tsai, Elder Bench, Elder Lee. Wonderful people. Thanks, -Smac 1
Storm Rider Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 2 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I hated the MTC, to be honest. It was exhausting, I didn't get along with my rather self-righteous companion, and there was this constant refrain that we needed to repent of anything we hadn't confessed already. So, I was trying desperately to do all the missionary stuff, as well as trying to "love" my companion (we couldn't have the spirit if I didn't), and wracking my brain for any possible sin I hadn't resolved. It was a relief to get to Bolivia and find at least a little normality. ETA: What does it say about the MTC that it was less stressful to live in a place without running water, with poor food, and political and economic unrest? There may be another perspective - I think two people can go through the same experience and when they each recount how it was they each tell dissimilar stories of the experience they both shared. I served my mission between 77 and 79 and I have no recollection of any consistent harping about repentance. I had already gone through a repentance process prior to my mission and knew there was nothing left to do. I may have just ignored it knowing it did not apply to me. I was put with two other missionaries - at first, I was with another group that was going to Quebec. Since I was going to France I did not fit the group so much. After about two weeks I was moved to the other French group, a group of 12 missionaries. I was the 13th and thus the threesome. Was not fond of one guy, but enjoyed the other okay. I did have one French teacher that was emotionally manipulative, but I still enjoyed her; I just tended to ignore the quirks in her teaching style. Now in the mission field, I had a very good 1st mission president and my 2nd mission president that was not so good. My memories of the LTM? First time I ever ate cracked wheat; wonderfully beautiful mornings going to the Provo temple on our P-day; great opportunities to work out/exercise; struggling to learn French; and great meetings with speakers that came to the LTM. 1
smac97 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Posted June 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Stargazer said: I've grown to the point in my life where I could conceivably be called "über-spiritual", but I find myself less concerned over "purity" issues than ever. One of my companions told me about an elder he knew who was constantly worried about sexual matters, including blouses cut too low, skirts cut too high, sisters sitting on the stand so you could see too much (in a meeting hall where there was no "stand", per se), and so on. It appeared that he was having a personal problem dealing with his own urges, and was eventually sent home early. Yes, I've seen this too. There's even a term for it: "Ironic Process Theory": Quote Ironic process theory, ironic rebound, or the white bear problem refers to the psychological process whereby deliberate attempts to suppress certain thoughts make them more likely to surface.[1][2] An example is how when someone is actively trying not to think of a white bear they may actually be more likely to imagine one. "Try to pose for yourself this task: not to think of a polar bear, and you will see that the cursed thing will come to mind every minute." — Fyodor Dostoevsky, Winter Notes on Summer Impressions, 1863[3] The phenomenon was identified through thought suppression studies in experimental psychology. Social psychologist Daniel Wegner first studied ironic process theory in a laboratory setting in 1987. Ironic mental processes have been shown in a variety of situations, where they are usually created or worsened by stress. In extreme cases, ironic mental processes result in intrusive thoughts about doing something immoral or out of character, which can be troubling to the individual. These findings have since guided clinical practice. For example, they show why it would be unproductive to try to suppress anxiety-producing or depressing thoughts.[4] I think members of the Church can end up with a "White Bear Problem" in terms of adhering to the Law of Chastity (and, for others, the Word of Wisdom). People, seeking to avoid thinking of sexual stimuli ("blouses cut too low, skirts cut too high...", pornography, etc.), end up fixating on such things. Thanks, -Smac 2
smac97 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Posted June 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Stargazer said: And I'm going to take a second here to endorse John's book. I read it and greatly enjoyed it! What's the name of the book?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I tell my sons and grandkids to make their mission a jolly adventure. Fantastic country there. It will be jolly. Enjoy! I miss your CN editorials. Thanks. We’re doing Arches and Canyonlands in Utah and Mesa Verde in Colorado, spending about a day in each place. My 15-year-old will finally fulfill a desire to see Delicate Arch in person. 1
smac97 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Posted June 22, 2018 2 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I hated the MTC, to be honest. It was exhausting, I didn't get along with my rather self-righteous companion, and there was this constant refrain that we needed to repent of anything we hadn't confessed already. So, I was trying desperately to do all the missionary stuff, as well as trying to "love" my companion (we couldn't have the spirit if I didn't), and wracking my brain for any possible sin I hadn't resolved. It was a relief to get to Bolivia and find at least a little normality. ETA: What does it say about the MTC that it was less stressful to live in a place without running water, with poor food, and political and economic unrest? By way of an alternative experience: I had a fairly enjoyable experience at the MTC. I had just come out of the Army 2 weeks before (I was scolded by a senior missionary sister as I walked in for having hair that was cut too short), so I was accustomed to rigorous discipline, rules, structured environment, etc. Another elder in my district, from Australia, was several years older than the rest of us (25, IIRC), and had finished his undergraduate degree in engineering prior to deciding to serve a mission. He and I got along very well. I also got along well with the other elders, at least for the most part. There were some high school / fraternity-esque hijinks that seemed very out of place, so there was that. But in the main, the teachers were excellent. They crammed a lot of language/culture and religious instruction into each day, while also letting us have time to relax a bit and get to know each other and enjoy each other. I have no recollection of my branch president. I'm sure I met with him a time or two, but I don't recall him being intrusive or unpleasant or anything like that. I also have no recollection of any other person at the MTC making me feel uncomfortable. I was there for 9.5 weeks, and the time just flew by. Thanks, -Smac 1
bluebell Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thanks. We’re doing Arches and Canyonlands in Utah and Mesa Verde in Colorado, spending about a day in each place. My 15-year-old will finally fulfill a desire to see Delicate Arch in person. Some of my favorite places! I especially love Mesa Verde. If you are going to be offroading in Canyonlands I recommend Elephant Hill trail. It's amazing; you see some petroglyphs and get an awesome view of the Needles district. Have a wonderful time! 1
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I heard a remnant of this story at least once during my time at the MTC. I just rolled my eyes. I believe in demons (black ones???), angels and visions, but none of this felt authentic to me at any point. I had no idea it had ever been shared by an MTC president (or two?). Without doubt, my MTC experience was the worst part of my entire mission. If there were demons targetting the place, they certainly weren't on the outside. Nearly every authority figure I had much to do with left me feeling like I'd stepped out of the comfortable and peaceful familiarity of the gospel into an alien landscape where the words sounded familiar but nothing felt right. I was genuinely scared much of the time ... and frequently singled out in a way that felt completely aribrary. It was the first time in my life I'd ever been treated so badly. I remember writing letters to my mum and dad telling them I thought I'd somehow ended up in a facility run by a completely different church. Thankfully, everything went back to normal once I left. If it hadn't, I never would have been able to complete my mission. Being a bit older than you MTC grads, I got to attend the Language Training Mission at BYU, in the spring of 1972. In Amanda Knight Hall, in fact, where the German, Dutch and Afrikaans missionaries learned their languages and the famous 6 discussions. The LTM was wonderful! I had some of my best spiritual experiences there, and learned so much, not only about how to speak German, but how to be a spiritual man. Our instructors were without exception exceptional Latter-day Saints, and I remember all of them fondly. My companion there was a bit of a jock, and I got the impression he thought I was some kind of nerd, but he was right -- I was a nerd! I have heard tales about how the missionary experience in Provo got much degraded when the MTC replaced the LTM. So sad! 2
jkwilliams Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, smac97 said: What's the name of the book? It's called Heaven Up Here. Here's a link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005WYQ7SI 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I will never understand what exactly got into my psycho branch president, but from the first time he laid eyes on me, he determined that I was an unrepentant sinner. I think he must have summoned me to his office 2-3 times/week every week I was there for what started to feel like a Twilight Zone episode. Although I'd explained to him that I was fully worthy to serve during our first meeting, he would still call me into his office, tell me that God had told him otherwise, and ask me if I was ready to confess. Then I would just stare at him whilst he stared at me. For a long, long time. Eventually he'd remind me that, when I was ready to talk, I just had to contact him, and then he'd dismiss me. This played out over and over and over again. Thankfully, my parents had done a good job of instilling some pretty good resilience in me. I genuinely wondered if other missionaries just cracked and made stuff up or what. What I remember most was how ungodly it all felt. I wasn't used to that. My every experience in the Church before the MTC had been of love and joy and patience and genuine inspiration. What a horrible experience to start one’s mission with, one that might have indelibly scarred some people. It’s to your credit you came through it and are the wise and level-headed man you are today. 1
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes, I've seen this too. There's even a term for it: "Ironic Process Theory": I think members of the Church can end up with a "White Bear Problem" in terms of adhering to the Law of Chastity (and, for others, the Word of Wisdom). People, seeking to avoid thinking of sexual stimuli ("blouses cut too low, skirts cut too high...", pornography, etc.), end up fixating on such things. Thanks, -Smac Sounds a little like the Streisand Effect, actually! 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, bluebell said: Some of my favorite places! I especially love Mesa Verde. If you are going to be offroading in Canyonlands I recommend Elephant Hill trail. It's amazing; you see some petroglyphs and get an awesome view of the Needles district. Have a wonderful time! No off-roading. I’m trying to keep our new SUV as pristine as possible over the next several years. Are there some interesting places accessible on foot (hopefully without lucrative tour fees)?
strappinglad Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 I spent 3 months at the LTM when it was still on the BYU campus in the mid sixties. A few weeks into it I contracted Mono ( the kissing disease ) and got ribbed for that. I didn't help that I had a hives - like reaction at the same time. I don't recall having any interaction with any leader. My only lasting memory of weirdness was in Spanish class when the instructor suggested we control our nighttime dreams so as to avoid ' nocturnal stuff ' . I figured good luck with that . lol. 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Being a bit older than you MTC grads, I got to attend the Language Training Mission at BYU, in the spring of 1972. In Amanda Knight Hall, in fact, where the German, Dutch and Afrikaans missionaries learned their languages and the famous 6 discussions. The LTM was wonderful! I had some of my best spiritual experiences there, and learned so much, not only about how to speak German, but how to be a spiritual man. Our instructors were without exception exceptional Latter-day Saints, and I remember all of them fondly. My companion there was a bit of a jock, and I got the impression he thought I was some kind of nerd, but he was right -- I was a nerd! I have heard tales about how the missionary experience in Provo got much degraded when the MTC replaced the LTM. So sad! I loved my 3 months at the LTM (Language Training Mission) prior to heading off for Central America in 1966. One of the best experiences of my life. Total focus on worthy goals, great companions who are still friends today, fantastic teachers and native speaker helpers (Gary Pullins, future BYU baseball coach), great gospel and cultural instruction and discussions, profound contact with the Spirit that has directed the course of my life, making music, lots of hard work, end-zone seats cheering at BYU football games, trips to Manti temple, friendly rivalry with other districts, supporting and being supported by fellow missionaries. I could go on. It was excellent preparation for the next two years. Wish I had paid attention more! I’m so sad to hear others had poor experiences. Edited June 22, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
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