Families in the next life-how does that all work?

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

How does the sealing of families work in the next life? does it mean you can associate with them forever or what about people that don't get sealed or aren't faithful to their covenants? it sounds nice to be sealed as a family but what is the lived experience in the next life, is what I am wondering! Like if don't make it but my sister does and she becomes a God with her Hubbie can she visit me or she won't or can't or what?

As Alma once wisely said, "Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself," and "Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear."

This much we do know....

Quote

Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.

Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund 

First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
November 1909

 

So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
30 June 1916

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[JulieM]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I've never understood why this needs to be so complicated.

1000 years of temple work featuring direct instruction from the other side should be enough to get all sealings complete and in place.  People will choose for themselves, including whether they will be part of eternal families or not.

D&C indicates that being in any kingdom requires obedience to its laws.

Those that obey the law of the Celestial in this life or by acceptance of proxy ordinances will be family units.  Those that don't will be separate and single. 

So how is that going to be?  I want to be with my spouse.  I’ll want to see my parents, but not live with them (or live with my husband’s parents who he’s sealed to or his siblings who are all going want to be with their spouses and so on).  I’ll want to see my kids, but they’ll want to be with their spouses, not living with me.

So what’s the point of being sealed?  Will we not be allowed to see or talk to each other or those we’re not sealed to?  How about our friends?  Or others we love who we aren’t sealed to?  What will be the difference when we see them vs. someone who we are sealed to?

Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So how is that going to be?  I want to be with my spouse.  I’ll want to see my parents, but not live with them (or live with my husband’s parents who he’s sealed to or his siblings who are all going want to be with their spouses and so on).  I’ll want to see my kids, but they’ll want to be with their spouses, not living with me.

So what’s the point of being sealed?  Will we not be allowed to see or talk to each other or those we’re not sealed to?  How about our friends?  Or others we love who we aren’t sealed to?  What will be the difference when we see them vs. someone we are sealed to?

I think of spiritual covenants and ritual as spiritual exercise.  I don't think they are just symbolic language.  Physical exercise is not just stuff that you do because you are told, it actually changes your body and makes it capable of doing more. Perhaps sealings are even like getting surgery to replace a weak organ that can only do its job partway with one that allows the recipient to get out there and live! rather than be tied up to a dialysis matching or in bed because of a heart that hardly pumps. Or maybe they function like a genetic rewrite/modification except it is our spiritual genetic code that gets rewritten.  Maybe we are grafting God's spiritual DNA into ours through sealings...or activating spiritual genes already present.  I believe undergoing covenants and then living them are making it possible for our spirits to do more, achieve things we could only have dreamed of doing when seeing our Father and Mother act...maybe we weren't even able to comprehend their spiritual movements so it all looked like miracles, they simply spoke and it was done instead of somehow spirits interact.

Sealings will, imo, help us become more like God, but at the moment we don't know how they act upon our spirits to make this so.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I have always wondered what I might be doing that would be still be of interest on 256th  day in the 3,548,259,748,658th year of my existence.

This:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap180620.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap150107.html

http://heritage.stsci.edu/2015/01/supplemental.html#

Getting to play in God's playground....how could it ever get boring?

Edited June 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think of spiritual covenants and ritual as spiritual exercise.  I don't think they are just symbolic language.  Physical exercise is not just stuff that you do because you are told, it actually changes your body and makes it capable of doing more. Perhaps sealings are even like getting surgery to replace a weak organ that can only do its job partway with one that allows the recipient to get out there and live! rather than be tied up to a dialysis matching or in bed because of a heart that hardly pumps. Or maybe they function like a genetic rewrite/modification except it is our spiritual genetic code that gets rewritten.  Maybe we are grafting God's spiritual DNA into ours through sealings...or activating spiritual genes already present.  I believe undergoing covenants and then living them are making it possible for our spirits to do more, achieve things we could only have dreamed of doing when seeing our Father and Mother act...maybe we weren't even able to comprehend their spiritual movements so it all looked like miracles, they simply spoke and it was done instead of somehow spirits interact.

Sealings will, imo, help us become more like God, but at the moment we don't know how they act upon our spirits to make this so.

I don’t know.  But, thanks Calm.  I haven’t thought about it this way before and now I will.  Great perspective and insight as always from you!

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Anyone in higher kingdoms of glory can visit the lower kingdoms.  However, if suggestions that LDS theology is universalist are true, then we'll nearly all be in the celestial kingdom, and visiting will be easy.  The whole human family is related, some more distantly than others, and all of us will know just where we fit on the genealogical sequence.

Givens has some great stuff to say about this that I will quote later. Don't know if you have read "Feeding the Flock" yet but it's a great book.

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap180620.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap150107.html

http://heritage.stsci.edu/2015/01/supplemental.html#

Getting to play in God's playground....how could it ever get boring?

And to those, I'll add this.  There is something special, I think contemplating the marvels of creation and of existence while listening to Bro. Lex de Azevedo's wonderful arrangement of W.W. Phelps' "If You Could Hie to Kolob."

 

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Feeding the Flock. About a year old I think, not that new. Fantastic as usual, and totally comprehensive.

It appears to be a second volume in a series. With the first volume apparently being "Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity"

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I have always wondered what I might be doing that would be still be of interest on 256th  day in the 3,548,259,748,658th year of my existence.

CA Steve walks into / rematerializes in the den room of his mansion.

CA Steve: Honey! I'm home!
Mrs CA Steve: Yes, dear, I see that.
CA Steve: What's for dinner?
Mrs CA Steve: Just create it yourself, I'm busy teaching 
     my last batch of spirits for the day. How'd the day go?
CA Steve: It was pretty routine, except for that last solar system.
Mrs CA Steve: Hmmm?
CA Steve: You should have seen the specs on that one! Wow! I have no idea
     why He wanted an O class hypergiant in that cluster, but it's a doozy,
     and it's going to go supernova in just 12 million years. Want to go
     watch when it blows? We can pack a lunch and take some of the kids.
Mrs CA Steve: Sounds lovely, dear! But didn't you read the report on that
     one?
CA Steve: No, I was kind of wrapped up with that blue whale evolution
     project. What about it?
Mrs CA Steve: That Class O star is intended to provide the heavy metal
     enrichment for the planet this batch of spirits I'm working with is
     supposed to do their mortality on. [pauses] You need to keep up with
     these things a bit better. You do want that promotion to the First
     Degree of the CK, don't you?
CA Steve: Well, of course, but you have no idea how fascinating whales
     can be! [smiles]

Yes, I know.  Quite boring after your billionth solar system, but as hard as the work is, someone has to do it!  

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, CA Steve said:

That sounds nice, but it kind of misses the point. If we actually live that long and continue to have offspring, some of which also start to have offspring and so on, the number representing how many individuals are my direct descendants quickly approaches infinite. I come from a large family and I am sure that the number of direct descendants just from my parents is well over two hundred. That is only in a time period of 90 years. Multiply that by a life span measured in millions (billions? or more)  and you quickly get an infinite number or nearly so of descendants. And this is only looking at one individual. At what point does infinite time and increase among mankind (Godkind?) become pointless or even impossible?  Will my 1,254,865,567,985,456,845th descendant be just as special to me as the dozen or so I have now? I tend to think we look at families are forever as this wonderful notion but without actually considering what it means or if we really truly want it.

Me? I think that long before I even reach a few thousand years old, I would tire of a purpose whose main focus was creating more people and places for them to live.

I think that you need to consider that, as a resurrected and exalted being, you won't be bored or tired at all with it.  If you think that life is going to resemble this life in any aspect that leads to boredom, I think you need to reinvigorate your imagination.  This life is a momumentally pale imitation of the life to come.  Even if you don't find your way to the Celestial Kingdom in the end, even the Terrestrial will be breathtakingly wonderful, I think you will find.

But thanks for inspiring my little vignette.  I had fun coming up with that!

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

So how is that going to be?  I want to be with my spouse.  I’ll want to see my parents, but not live with them (or live with my husband’s parents who he’s sealed to or his siblings who are all going want to be with their spouses and so on).  I’ll want to see my kids, but they’ll want to be with their spouses, not living with me.

So what’s the point of being sealed?  Will we not be allowed to see or talk to each other or those we’re not sealed to?  How about our friends?  Or others we love who we aren’t sealed to?  What will be the difference when we see them vs. someone who we are sealed to?

We see, as the Apostle Paul said, as through a glass, darkly, and even though we in this last dispensation have been blessed with more knowledge, generally, than any previous dispensation, we still continue to look at the ground, as it were, when the best view is above.  You have surely flown on airplanes, and you know you can see very widely indeed from up there.  Well, the ultimate eternal view makes that wide view from a plane look like the inside of a cave, lighted by candle, in comparison.  If you think that that ultimate life will resemble this one, with a house on a street in a neighborhood, and your kids will live across the street, and your parents on the next block over, you're thinking waaaaay too small.

You will able to be in more than one place, or even time, at once.  You will be able to visit your mom and dad while simultaneously creating a whole new galaxy with your husband, and if you want you will be able to go back to this galaxy, this solar system, and this earth, and observe how the dinosaurs lived 70 million years ago.  You will be able to see what God himself sees, do what God himself does, and more to the point, be what God is.  And you worry about administrivia?  I know how hard it is to see beyond yourself, because I was once so earthbound that I could not see beyond it.  But you can, if you want, free yourself to see a little beyond yourself, and realize that God has provided for us more than just this little plot of land.

What's the point of being sealed?  That's a good kind of query.  I wonder about it, myself, since it seems that if you are in the Celestial Kingdom you're perfectly free to visit and talk with anyone in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms.  They can't come visit you, but as an eternal being, you are always going to be accessible to them.  I bet email and Faceview work particularly well on the heavenly servers, and the bandwidth is going to be awesome!  Download speeds will be legendary!

The power of the sealing ordinance seems to be something far greater than simply being able to visit, since as I said, you can visit whom you like.  The sealing between husband and wife is of a different level from that between parents and children, but it would seem that it provides something of great strength.  I am unsure of your membership status, but if you have an opportunity to take part in sealings, I would suggest that you do so, and listen very closely to the words of the ordinances as they are being performed. I know it can get boring listening to the same words over and over again, but I have learned that you can learn from the repetition -- not the repetition itself, but through the Spirit.  There are promises made in those ordinances which, if listened to with the proper attitude and interest, will cause you to be taught by the Spirit, perhaps in subtle ways that you will not immediately understand, but in ways that will call to your own spirit.

But the thing that I try to tell people about our ultimate eternal goal and destination remains this: Don't get hung up by your own limitations, or by the limitations imposed by your mortal condition! If this life was indeed to be the exact model of our eventual eternal life, and that all it was were more of this life with just the absence of death and suffering, I'd say screw it, where can I get off?  But you're looking at the testing ground, not the reward.  You won't be eternally pregnant.  

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Duncan said:

How does the sealing of families work in the next life? does it mean you can associate with them forever or what about people that don't get sealed or aren't faithful to their covenants? it sounds nice to be sealed as a family but what is the lived experience in the next life, is what I am wondering! Like if don't make it but my sister does and she becomes a God with her Hubbie can she visit me or she won't or can't or what?

I think being sealed enables us to do more with those to whom we are sealed that if we were not sealed. I don't think it has so much to do with personal associations and relationships, but what we can do within those relationships to make them most godly. Like the difference between what someone can do as a Church member and as a non-member (cannot attend the temple together, or alone for that matter);  or the difference between an heir and someone not entitled to his forefathers' property, rank, legacy, etc. (he can still be a nice guy but is still limited to what can be done with his own resources).

I see @Bernard Gui provides a great example!

Edited June 21, 2018 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, CA Steve said:

That sounds nice, but it kind of misses the point. If we actually live that long and continue to have offspring, some of which also start to have offspring and so on, the number representing how many individuals are my direct descendants quickly approaches infinite. I come from a large family and I am sure that the number of direct descendants just from my parents is well over two hundred. That is only in a time period of 90 years. Multiply that by a life span measured in millions (billions? or more)  and you quickly get an infinite number or nearly so of descendants. And this is only looking at one individual. At what point does infinite time and increase among mankind (Godkind?) become pointless or even impossible?  Will my 1,254,865,567,985,456,845th descendant be just as special to me as the dozen or so I have now? I tend to think we look at families are forever as this wonderful notion but without actually considering what it means or if we really truly want it.

 

Me? I think that long before I even reach a few thousand years old, I would tire of a purpose whose main focus was creating more people and places for them to live.

Who knows what it would be like to be a being of perfected and unlimited intelligence, creativity, compassion, and charity? Who can imagine what such a being would do for eternity? A being  who intimately knows everything he has created from the grains of sand on their shores to the hairs on their heads and the feathers on their wings? I hope his mercy is sufficient.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

CA Steve walks into / rematerializes in the den room of his mansion.

CA Steve: Honey! I'm home!
Mrs CA Steve: Yes, dear, I see that.
CA Steve: What's for dinner?
Mrs CA Steve: Just create it yourself, I'm busy teaching 
     my last batch of spirits for the day. How'd the day go?
CA Steve: It was pretty routine, except for that last solar system.
Mrs CA Steve: Hmmm?
CA Steve: You should have seen the specs on that one! Wow! I have no idea
     why He wanted an O class hypergiant in that cluster, but it's a doozy,
     and it's going to go supernova in just 12 million years. Want to go
     watch when it blows? We can pack a lunch and take some of the kids.
Mrs CA Steve: Sounds lovely, dear! But didn't you read the report on that
     one?
CA Steve: No, I was kind of wrapped up with that blue whale evolution
     project. What about it?
Mrs CA Steve: That Class O star is intended to provide the heavy metal
     enrichment for the planet this batch of spirits I'm working with is
     supposed to do their mortality on. [pauses] You need to keep up with
     these things a bit better. You do want that promotion to the First
     Degree of the CK, don't you?
CA Steve: Well, of course, but you have no idea how fascinating whales
     can be! [smiles]

Yes, I know.  Quite boring after your billionth solar system, but as hard as the work is, someone has to do it!  

You could get awards for designing really spiffy fjords.

[CA Steve]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think that you need to consider that, as a resurrected and exalted being, you won't be bored or tired at all with it.  If you think that life is going to resemble this life in any aspect that leads to boredom, I think you need to reinvigorate your imagination.  This life is a momumentally pale imitation of the life to come.  Even if you don't find your way to the Celestial Kingdom in the end, even the Terrestrial will be breathtakingly wonderful, I think you will find.

But thanks for inspiring my little vignette.  I had fun coming up with that!

You're welcome.

It is funny how perspective colors what we view as limiting others imaginations. I believe it is my imagination that allows me to see more than just one side to the possibilities. For example, I agree with you that if we end up as eternal beings in some sort of endless creation cycle, then that existence will in no way resemble our current one, and I take it a step further, in my imagination. We ourselves in no way will resemble our current state. My imagination tells me that my current capabilities are not sufficient to embrace an existence of that length, hence my comment about getting bored after a few thousand years. So I agree that our lives will be completely different and I think we will be also.

Why are we so sure that our current selves actually want to change into those beings and that life? Why are we so sure that even if we get to those stages, we will not eventually want something different? Is it my imagination that is failing to see just a joyful eternal existence or your imagination that only allows for that possibility?

Also I am curious, based on your vignette, do you reject the Smith couplet, or do you believe we will eventually become Gods in our own right?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It appears to be a second volume in a series. With the first volume apparently being "Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity"

Yes you could say that the two books are about orthopraxis. The first one is about "Ortho "the second one is about "Praxis".

Theory and practice, in other words. So really the first one is about Mormon philosophy, the second one is about the Mormon lifestyle, including the importance of ordinances.  In my opinion, both belong on the bookshelves of any serious student of Mormonism- they will eventually be tremendously important in shaping future Mormon thought- perhaps more than "Mormon Doctrine" was I hope!

It is a kind of two-volume Encyclopedia of Mormon thought. In the first one you can look up any Mormon Doctrine or belief and find out about its origins and history and where that belief came from in early Christianity, tracing history of the belief through the restoration and how Joseph brought it back.

And in the second one I am now reading about sacramental theology and how through the history of Christianity the view of sacraments and ordinances have changed. In early Christianity ordinances were a physical act that actually made physical spiritual changes in a person. Then in the Reformation the Protestants wanted to make all sacraments symbolic and therefore not really necessary. If sacraments and ordinances are not really necessary you don't need authority to do anything, so there was really no need for the priesthood.

Joseph of course restored the physicality of the importance of ordinances. All ordinances must be performed physically on Earth. I think this kind of fits with the notion of "spirit matter" that on some level a physical change is happening in matter (of course invisibly, spirit matter being "more refined")  And this of course also fits with the idea of God being himself a resurrected being with a spiritual-physical tangible body

I really enjoyed Calm's analogy of ordinances being part of a physical healing- kind of like an organ transplant or other medical treatment- and that is a good analogy for the point Givens makes as well .

So in a real sense the entire purpose of the gospel can be said to be about sealings and sealing ordinances.  Without "turning our hearts" to parents and children, the earth would be "smitten by a curse" because the purpose of the earth is filling the measure of creation of humanity and having joy therein and being linked into one huge family.  Givens also tends to be a Universalist I think, so all the nonsense about differences between the kingdoms, though theoretically important become far less important.  And I personally would add to that the Proclamation on the Family but not go into it here.  Male and female are necessary for the creation of physical offspring in a church where physical ordinances are essential. And of course we can be adopted and sealed as well.  But if there are replies about that statement I will not answer them on this thread- I just want to link the concepts of physical reproduction to the spiritual-physical family and the importance of Divine Pairs. https://www.lds.org/church/news/this-is-a-womans-church-says-fairconference-speaker?lang=eng

I think kingdoms it will be mostly a "mental" divisions where very successful and accomplished folks may live next door to others who are not so accomplished.  And then we have our kids some of whom are more "successful" by whatever standards, than others, but we love and visit all of them as each "fills the measure of their creation".  I also think that in the spirit world the difference between "prison" and "heaven" will be in our attitudes to others around us. LA has sections of town now filled with crazy addicted people while others walk through, help or ignore the crazies.  Perhaps it will be like that.  Some people are close to God and others have a long way to go, but we all live in the same mortal plane.

We are not all the same and not robot automatons or seeking to be such, we all have unique talents and abilities and the goal is to be all that we can be!! (Army or not, it's a great slogan!)

Without sealing ordinances, from a gospel perspective, the earth would literally have no purpose and therefore it's very existence would have been "wasted" at the Lord's second coming

I was fortunate to have my review and comments about the first book published in the Interpreter, so yes I am familiar with it.

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/untangling-scripture-from-the-philosophies-of-men/

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

You're welcome.

It is funny how perspective colors what we view as limiting others imaginations. I believe it is my imagination that allows me to see more than just one side to the possibilities. For example, I agree with you that if we end up as eternal beings in some sort of endless creation cycle, then that existence will in no way resemble our current one, and I take it a step further, in my imagination. We ourselves in no way will resemble our current state. My imagination tells me that my current capabilities are not sufficient to embrace an existence of that length, hence my comment about getting bored after a few thousand years. So I agree that our lives will be completely different and I think we will be also.

Why are we so sure that our current selves actually want to change into those beings and that life? Why are we so sure that even if we get to those stages, we will not eventually want something different? Is it my imagination that is failing to see just a joyful eternal existence or your imagination that only allows for that possibility?

Also I am curious, based on your vignette, do you reject the Smith couplet, or do you believe we will eventually become Gods in our own right?

Does a caterpillar want to become a butterfly before it is ready or doesn't the change come until it is ready? 

Does he get bored being a caterpillar ?

For those who don't get parables, this is an example. 

I don't want to provoke a series of posts now debating the intelligence of caterpillars which would be the typical response around here.....  

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes you could say that the two books are about orthopraxis. The first one is about "Ortho "the second one is about "Praxis".

Theory and practice, in other words. So really the first one is about Mormon philosophy, the second one is about the Mormon lifestyle, including the importance of ordinances.

It is a kind of two-volume Encyclopedia of Mormon thought. In the first one you can look up any Mormon Doctrine or belief and find out about its origins and history and where that belief came from in early Christianity, tracing history of the belief through the restoration and how Joseph brought it back.

And in the second one I am now reading about sacramental theology and how through the history of Christianity the view of sacraments and ordinances have changed. In early Christianity ordinances were a physical act that actually made physical spiritual changes in a person. Then in the Reformation the Protestants wanted to make all sacraments symbolic and therefore not really necessary. If sacraments and ordinances are not really necessary you don't need authority to do anything, so there was really no need for the priesthood.

Joseph of course restored the physicality of the importance of ordinances. All ordinances must be performed physically on Earth. I think this kind of fits with the notion of "spirit matter" that on some level a physical change is happening in matter (of course invisibly, spirit matter being "more refined")  And this of course also fits with the idea of God being himself a resurrected being with a spiritual-physical tangible body

I really enjoyed Calm's analogy of ordinances being part of a physical healing- kind of like an organ transplant or other medical treatment- and that is a good analogy for the point Givens makes as well .

So in a real sense the entire purpose of the gospel can be said to be about sealings and sealing ordinances.  Without "turning our hearts" to parents and children, the earth would be "smitten by a curse" because the purpose of the earth is filling the measure of creation of humanity and having joy therein and being linked into one huge family.  Givens also tends to be a Universalist I think, so all the nonsense about differences between the kingdoms, though theoretically important become far less important.  And I personally would add to that the Proclamation on the Family but not go into it here.  Male and female are necessary for the creation of physical offspring in a church where physical ordinances are essential. And of course we can be adopted and sealed as well.  But if there are replies about that statement I will not answer them on this thread- I just want to link the concepts of physical reproduction to the spiritual-physical family and the importance of Divine Pairs. https://www.lds.org/church/news/this-is-a-womans-church-says-fairconference-speaker?lang=eng

I think kingdoms it will be mostly a "mental" divisions where very successful and accomplished folks may live next door to others who are not so accomplished.  And then we have our kids some of whom are more "successful" by whatever standards, than others, but we love and visit all of them as each "fills the measure of their creation".  I also think that in the spirit world the difference between "prison" and "heaven" will be in our attitudes to others around us. LA has sections of town now filled with crazy addicted people while others walk through, help or ignore the crazies.  Perhaps it will be like that.  Some people are close to God and others have a long way to go, but we all live in the same mortal plane.

We are not all the same and not robot automatons or seeking to be such, we all have unique talents and abilities and the goal is to be all that we can be!! (Army or not, it's a great slogan!)

Without sealing ordinances, from a gospel perspective, the earth would literally have no purpose and therefore it's very existence would have been "wasted" at the Lord's second coming

I was fortunate to have my review and comments about the first book published in the Interpreter, so yes I am familiar with it.

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/untangling-scripture-from-the-philosophies-of-men/

 

I never saw it before!

Protestant rejection of ordinances as cover for untenable existence without priesthood.

There's a threadjacking corollary I won't mention, but you'll surely guess.

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I never saw it before!

Protestant rejection of ordinances as cover for untenable existence without priesthood.

There's a threadjacking corollary I won't mention, but you'll surely guess.

Yes them Givens folks is pretty smart.

They can make it go.

 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think being sealed enables us to do more with those to whom we are sealed that if we were not sealed. I don't think it has so much to do with personal associations and relationships, but what we can do within those relationships to make them most godly. Like the difference between what someone can do as a Church member and as a non-member (cannot attend the temple together, or alone for that matter);  or the difference between an heir and someone not entitled to his forefathers' property, rank, legacy, etc. (he can still be a nice guy but is still limited to what can be done with his own resources).

It may be even more basic than that.
The question for example, what if my spouse and I are not sealed (after having opportunity to be sealed and rejecting it for some reason).  Will we not be together?

It may be more than you cannot do things together.  They simply won't be your spouse any more.  It may be like a separated or divorced couple or it may be a regression to the state of relation prior to your marriage on earth.  We don't have the details.

But I think it's important to consider the possibility that something may cause an end to the temporal relationships created here.  Something more than being "kept apart".
 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You could get awards for designing really spiffy fjords.

Like in Norway!  Of course, they might be out of place in Africa. Not equatorial enough.

[cinepro]

As this and other discussions show, once you get past the thin surface of the marketing, the idea of "sealing" and "eternal families" quickly turns into a nonsensical mess.  If someone was meeting with the missionaries and asked the very basic questions that have been posted in this thread and the response was "We don't know, we'll find out after we die", that person would probably be justified in holding off until we did know.  After all, every church can make any claim they want if they can patch up the reasoning with "we don't know, we'll find out when we die."

At the very least, it's probably mislabeling to call it the "Plan of Salvation."  It's more like we're selling the "Idea of Salvation" or the "Feeling of Salvation."

 

It also raises the problem of the idea that God isn't a God of confusion, or that we'll get a "stupor of thought" when we think of things that aren't true.  If basic questions bout LDS claims for the eternities induce confusion and a stupor of thought, then LDS scriptures would indicate that those claims probably aren't from God. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by cinepro

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It may be even more basic than that.
The question for example, what if my spouse and I are not sealed (after having opportunity to be sealed and rejecting it for some reason).  Will we not be together?

It may be more than you cannot do things together.  They simply won't be your spouse any more.  It may be like a separated or divorced couple or it may be a regression to the state of relation prior to your marriage on earth.  We don't have the details.

But I think it's important to consider the possibility that something may cause an end to the temporal relationships created here.  Something more than being "kept apart".
 

I'd say you can be together and do certain things with and within the relationship in one sense, but could you do or accomplish the most magnificent things if not sealed? Would you have the same permissions and networks that expand your individual power and influence? (I don’t think you would). Maybe the basicness :) of my post didn’t come across!

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'd say you can be together and do certain things with and within the relationship in one sense, but could you do or accomplish the most magnificent things if not sealed? Would you have the same permissions and networks that expand your individual power and influence? (I don’t think you would).

 

But once again, you don’t know.  You can think it or hope it will be like this.  It’s still speculation for much of this though.  

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

As this and other discussions show, once you get past the thin surface of the marketing, the idea of "sealing" and "eternal families" quickly turns into a nonsensical mess.  If someone was meeting with the missionaries and asked the very basic questions that have been post in this thread and the response was "We don't know, we'll find out after we die", that person would probably be justified in holding off until we did know.

At the very least, it's probably mislabeling to call it the "Plan of Salvation."  It's more like we're selling the "Idea of Salvation" or the "Feeling of Salvation."

 

It also raises the problem of the idea that God isn't a God of confusion, or that we'll get a "stupor of thought" when we think of things that aren't true.  If basic questions bout LDS claims for the eternities induce confusion and a stupor of thought, then LDS scriptures would indicate that those claims probably aren't from God. 

What do you find to be the most nonsensical mess in the basic teachings about sealing? https://www.lds.org/topics/sealing?lang=eng