New Research Reports Most Younger Mormons Now "Strongly Favor" or "Favor" SSM

[MDalby]

What does it matter what a survey says...  I can imagine during the Exodus if the Israeli Times took a survey that most of Israel would "Strongly Favor" or "Favor" getting rid of Manna.

It doesn't matter.  The Gospel is not a democracy.

[gopher]

Since hatred is the only valid reason for opposing SSM (according to many), it's no wonder youth don't want to be accused of hatred.  Plus they are easily influenced by celebrity Mormons who support SSM like that lead singer of Nickelback.

[Eek!]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Seems a silly reason to get burned at the Lord’s Second Coming.

Does it sound fair to you that God would burn someone who is being true to their conscience?   Are you totally comfortable worshiping that kind of being?  Does the prospect of so many otherwise good people being burned make your presumed immunity all the more delicious? 

Or it is possible that the scripture you're referring to, or at least the standard interpretation thereof, is not the highest level of truth on the subject? 

[Daniel2]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

A little off topic, but can we be done with the weird lingo on this issue? It's not SSM. SSM is a health system. SSM is a kind of missile. The topic is gay marriage.

Or, as many of us like to call it..... marriage.

When my husband and I introduce one another, we don’t say, “Nice to meet you, too! And this is my gay husband...”

Or when we speak about our wedding, we don’t say “our gay wedding anniversary is....” or “the date we got gay married was...”

When we check forms about our marital status, we check the “married” check box, not a “gay married” box.

There’s all sorts of couples who get married.... some are interracial, others are inter-Faith, or may be same-sex, or non-religious, or intergenerational, or same-race, or opposite-sex, or same-Faith (whether LDS, Catholic, Jewish or other Faiths), and some may be polygamist, etc. 

In each case, each couple simply gets—you guessed it!—married.  

Edited May 2, 2018 by Daniel2

[cinepro]

39 minutes ago, MDalby said:

What does it matter what a survey says...  I can imagine during the Exodus if the Israeli Times took a survey that most of Israel would "Strongly Favor" or "Favor" getting rid of Manna.

It doesn't matter.  The Gospel is not a democracy.

The Church is a "democracy" in that each member has a vote in whether or not the Church succeeds.  But we don't vote with our hands, we vote with our feet. 

The non-democratic leaders can try and lead the people to do and believe things that the people don't want to do or believe, but in the end, if people stop showing up, the Church becomes weaker and eventually dies.

It's actually a lot worse than being a "democracy", because at least for a country the citizens have to make some degree of effort to leave if they don't like it and the leaders can try and stop them.  But instead of climbing over a wall or traveling thousands of miles to get out of the Church, all you have to do is not get out of bed on Sunday morning and keep 10% more of your money.

I'm not saying that the leaders should put the doctrine on shifting sand to sway with every Pew poll that comes out, but it would also be prudent to think about what the possibilities are with a "love it or leave it" attitude.  Because from what I can tell, lots of people are seeing "leave it" as a perfectly great option, and the poll would seem to indicate that future generations might not appreciate being told to make a choice between believing their gay family members and neighbors are living in sin and abomination and Church doctrine.

[Rock_N_Roll]

39 minutes ago, gopher said:

Since hatred is the only valid reason for opposing SSM (according to many), it's no wonder youth don't want to be accused of hatred.  Plus they are easily influenced by celebrity Mormons who support SSM like that lead singer of Nickelback.

You probably mean Imagine Dragons.

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

You probably mean Imagine Dragons.

I'll believe you because of your name

You into jam rock n roll?

 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Or, as I like to call it..... marriage.

When I introduce my husband, I don’t say, “Nice to meet you, too! And this is my gay husband...”

Or when I speak about our wedding, I don’t say “My gay wedding anniversary is....” or “the date we got gay married was...”

When I check forms about my marital status, I check the “married” check box, not a “gay married” box.

There’s all sorts of couples who get married.... interracial, inter-Faith, same-sex, non-religious, intergenerational, same-race, opposite-sex, LDS, Catholic, polygamist, etc. 

In each case, each couple simply gets—you guessed it!—married.  

But but how will we know he is Gay if you don't tell us?  

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

You probably mean Imagine Dragons.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/645192142/Nickelback-drummer-where-he-wants-to-be.html

 Doesn't say he is Mormon, but why in desert news.? 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

30 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The Church is a "democracy" in that each member has a vote in whether or not the Church succeeds.  But we don't vote with our hands, we vote with our feet. 

 

The Kingdom of God which would include the Church is not a democracy but a kingdom that is run by a king.  One can leave the kingdom but the success of the kingdom is not dependent on the whether the individual stays or leaves.  God will remain to be God and remain in His exalted state regardless of what we do or say.  We can choose to join God or not but it is all on us. 

[carbon dioxide]

56 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Does it sound fair to you that God would burn someone who is being true to their conscience?  

God does not burn anyone.  Spirits and resurrected beings are not tormented by fire anyway.  Satan probably was being true to his conscience when he rebelled against God.  That was his choice and the consequence followed. The same is with us if we choose to violate the laws of God.  God grants us the agency to be "true to our conscience" but he does not grant us an exemption if those things violate commandments.   We are here to be tested and prove ourselves to God and deny our ungodliness.  Not to magnify our weaknesses and show God how good we can be at disobedience.

Edited May 2, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

FYI, as if to say, "Just FYI, since I'm sure you haven't read Obergefell v. Hodges, any other Court decisions impacting the First Amendment, or any constitutional law period ..."

You can never resist condescending to me, can you?  Do you disagree civilly with anyone, or is everyone who disagrees with you simply an unprincipled dolt?Just because Obergefell v. Hodges was not decided on First Amendment grounds does not mean that it has no implications for how courts may (and likely will; after all, I'm sure you won't hesitate to point out to me that THIS Decision (capitalization intentional, for emphasis, since I'm sure to understate its importance otherwise, unprincipled dolt that I am!) was rendered by ...

THE

UNITED 

STATES

SUPREME 

COURT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cue thunder!]

And it was ...

UNANIMOUS!  Oh, wait; no, it wasn't.  Sorry; my bad!

It was an 8-1 decis ... Oh, wait; no, it wasn't.  Sorry; my bad again!

It was a 7-2 decis ...  Oh, wait; no, it wasn't.  Sorry; my bad ... again!

It was a 6-3 decis ... Oh, wait; no, it wasn't.  Sorry; my bad ... yet again!  (Man, I'm just having a tough time getting my facts straight!)

Oh, that's right!  It was a 5-4 decision, wasn't it?

(Bah!  All the Justices in the minority are simply unprincipled dolts!)

While I strongly disagreed with Roberts' decision on the Obama Care law, in Obergefell v. Hodges, he basically proves he is not a complete dolt and is worthy of being the Chief Justice. He basically echoes much of what I have said in this thread - except probably not so succinctly. In the true nature of Supreme Court justices, he is thorough, so distilling what he says is a bit tricky, but the main themes of what Due Process and the Equal Protection clause are really for, and whether the majority is usurping legislative power - come through in flying colors. He concludes that the majority is making public policy - not ruling on constitutionality of marriage. and says "If you are among the many Americans—of whatever sexual orientation—who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today’s decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it." I concur.

I provide a link for those who care to read his dissenting opinion. Other dissenting justices are largely in the same vein.  https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

i am editing to add that the majority opinion results in a totally irrational result of forcing a state with traditional marriage laws of recognizing an out-of-state SSM, while a state with no marriage laws would not have to recognize such an out-of-state marriage. Who knows maybe these justices foolishly believe their power extends to forcing states to pass laws allowing marriage.  

If anyone reads the decision of the majority, I would encourage them to note that the opinion essentially jumps to the language of a "fundamental right" of marriage. There is no such "right." They even talk about Confucius - really? I didn't know Chinese proverbs formed the basis for US constitutional law. Any state can eliminate all marriage rights, and the supreme court can do nothing about it. The majority is living in their own little dream world of created due process rights which don't exist.

Edited May 2, 2018 by RevTestament

[Eek!]

33 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

God does not burn anyone. 

Agreed!

33 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Satan probably was being true to his conscience when he rebelled against God. 

I don't think so, but neither of us knows at this time.

33 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

God grants us the agency to be "true to our conscience" but he does not grant us an exemption if those things violate commandments.  

If a person's conscience is misguided, the appropriate response would be teaching them correct principles, not punishment.  I don't think God would be glorified by punishing someone into violating their conscience.

33 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

 We are here to be tested and prove ourselves to God... 

If God knows in advance what the outcome of the test will be, what's the point in testing us?   Testing someone when the outcome is known in advance only makes sense if it serves some higher purpose.

I think we are here for a much higher purpose, which is to become gods, by following the same path as all gods that have gone before.  There are parts of the journey which call for following the best outer voices from the best institution we know of.  And there are parts of the journey which call for listening to our own conscience, despite the disapproval of the best institution we know of.  EITHER WAY, THE INSTITUTION IS SERVING THAT HIGHER PURPOSE!  

Imo it's a long path. 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Eek!

[Daniel2]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But but how will we know he is Gay if you don't tell us?  

...............

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Agreed!

I don't think so, but neither of us knows at this time.

If a person's conscience is misguided, the appropriate response would be teaching them correct principles, not punishment.  I don't think God would be glorified by punishing someone into violating their conscience.

If God knows in advance what the outcome of the test will be, what's the point in testing us?   Testing someone when the outcome is known in advance only makes sense if it serves some higher purpose.

I think we are here for a much higher purpose, which is to become gods, by following the same path as all gods that have gone before.  There are parts of the journey which call for following the best outer voices from the best institution we know of.  And there are parts of the journey which call for listening to our own conscience, despite the disapproval of the best institution we know of.  EITHER WAY, THE INSTITUTION IS SERVING THAT HIGHER PURPOSE!  

Imo it's a long path. 

 

I agree. I don't know how it can be just to punish someone for doing what they sincerely felt was the right thing to do.  How can God ask someone to go against their sincere beliefs?  No one is going to do something they sincerely believe is wrong and it's not fair to ask anyone to do that.  

 

[carbon dioxide]

5 minutes ago, Eek! said:

 

If God knows in advance what the outcome of the test will be, what's the point in testing us?  

 

God does not follow a "Minority Report" system of justice.  God does not punish people for actions they are likely to commit but have not done yet.  God may know our decisions based on how we will react in a situation but often we don't so the choice is still ours.  A teacher may know how a student will score on a test based on how much they have studied before the test is given but the test is still given and it will still be graded.  When we are judged, God will base our judgement of things that we have done and point to them and we will know them because we did them.  We wil not be able to dispute God.  God is not going to judge use by saying "Had you lived this long you would have done this therefore I will pronounce a judgement against you for something you did not do."  We would say "What"?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Since hatred is the only valid reason for opposing SSM (according to many), it's no wonder youth don't want to be accused of hatred.  Plus they are easily influenced by celebrity Mormons who support SSM like that lead singer of Nickelback.

You do realize that those 50 and above also increased their support for gay marriage by roughly the same number of points (23) in the past two years, which is the same as the youth.  This survey showing a dramatic shift to supporting gay marriage is an overall shift amongst all Mormons.  The youth are only have the highest percentage support at 52%.  I doubt those over 50 know who Nickelback is, yet their support shifted as well.

[Eek!]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

God does not follow a "Minority Report" system of justice.  God does not punish people for actions they are likely to commit but have not done yet.  God may know our decisions based on how we will react in a situation but often we don't so the choice is still ours.  A teacher may know how a student will score on a test based on how much they have studied before the test is given but the test is still given and it will still be graded.  When we are judged, God will base our judgement of things that we have done and point to them and we will know them because we did them.  We wil not be able to dispute God.  God is not going to judge us by saying "Had you lived this long you would have done this therefore I will pronounce a judgement against you for something you did not do."  We would say "What"?

I TOTALLY agree with you!

So it would be unfair for God to judge (reward or condemn) someone who died WITHOUT hearing the Gospel based on what they WOULD HAVE DONE if they had heard it during their life on earth.  

Likewise it would be unfair for children who died before the age of accountability to have won an exaltation jackpot. 

My personal opinion is this:  God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, and any line of thinking which leads to a different conclusion has a mistake in it somewhere.  

I won't bore you with my opinion of HOW it all works; but it is my opinion THAT it all works, that nobody gets cheated, that the Good Shepherd never gives up on anyone, and that when viewed correctly, God's plan is ONLY "good news". 

Please feel free to disagree with and/or challenge any of this.  I have not yet attained Infallibility!

Edited May 3, 2018 by Eek!

[california boy]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Kingdom of God which would include the Church is not a democracy but a kingdom that is run by a king.  One can leave the kingdom but the success of the kingdom is not dependent on the whether the individual stays or leaves.  God will remain to be God and remain in His exalted state regardless of what we do or say.  We can choose to join God or not but it is all on us. 

And everyone else who does not believe the teachings of the leaders of the Mormon Church are not choosing God?

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, california boy said:

You do realize that those 50 and above also increased their support for gay marriage by roughly the same number of points (23) in the past two years, which is the same as the youth.  This survey showing a dramatic shift to supporting gay marriage is an overall shift amongst all Mormons.  The youth are only have the highest percentage support at 52%.  I doubt those over 50 know who Nickelback is, yet their support shifted as well.

Mine has not, and I know who Nickelback is. I listen to pop and rock, and had boys who liked Nickelback - personally, I felt they had about one good song. My position has not changed on this issue for 30 years - ever since I learned constitutional law. I encourage others to do the same, and like me, and the dissenting SCOTUS justices, they will probably be disturbed by the enormity of the power grab in this particular SCOTUS decision.  As Justice Alito concluded: "all Americans, whatever their thinking on that issue, should worry about what the majority’s claim of power portends."

[Calm]

I have  Nickelback  on my iPod I used for walking, 60 this year. 

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

And everyone else who does not believe the teachings of the leaders of the Mormon Church are not choosing God?

They may be choosing God in a sense but how much value that will be in the end is up for debate.  However the point is simple that the kingdom of God is not a democracy.  God does not determine his laws by a vote or consensus.  Nor does he wait for the Supreme Court to decide issues.  God makes the rules and we can comply or not comply but we can't change or alter the rules. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Then write like a lawyer, with claims and evidence and without sarcasm and hyperbole, and we'll take you seriously. I imagine your law school professors would offer you the same advice.

Forget it.  I'm out.  I'm reminded of an old saying about wrestling with pigs ... 

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Or, as many of us like to call it..... marriage.

When my husband and I introduce one another, we don’t say, “Nice to meet you, too! And this is my gay husband...”

Or when we speak about our wedding, we don’t say “our gay wedding anniversary is....” or “the date we got gay married was...”

When we check forms about our marital status, we check the “married” check box, not a “gay married” box.

There’s all sorts of couples who get married.... some are interracial, others are inter-Faith, or may be same-sex, or non-religious, or intergenerational, or same-race, or opposite-sex, or same-Faith (whether LDS, Catholic, Jewish or other Faiths), and some may be polygamist, etc. 

In each case, each couple simply gets—you guessed it!—married.  

Well said

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

You do realize that those 50 and above also increased their support for gay marriage by roughly the same number of points (23) in the past two years, which is the same as the youth.  This survey showing a dramatic shift to supporting gay marriage is an overall shift amongst all Mormons.  The youth are only have the highest percentage support at 52%.  I doubt those over 50 know who Nickelback is, yet their support shifted as well.

I'm over fifty and I listen to Nickelback.🤭