New Research Reports Most Younger Mormons Now "Strongly Favor" or "Favor" SSM

[Kenngo1969]

25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok.  But you really didn't answer any of my questions.  Lots of words, but no specific answers.  ... 

I'm sorry you feel that my previous post(s) was or were non-responsive.  I'm sorry you feel that they're nothing more than "lots of words."  It doesn't necessarily take a Juris doctor, or even, necessarily, a lot of research to see how Obergefell v. Hodges is simply another in a long line of majority decisions in which courts have paid mere lip service to the idea of free exercise, one of the First Amendment's core concepts, while inventing competing concepts out of mysterious "penumbras" and "implications," if not doing so out of whole cloth entirely.  True, nobody has called for the repeal of the First Amendment ... yet.  But today's Precious Little Snowflakes are tomorrow's appellate lawyers and judges.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm sorry you feel that my previous post(s) was or were non-responsive.  I'm sorry you feel that they're nothing more than "lots of words."  It doesn't necessarily take a Juris doctor, or even, necessarily, a lot of research to see how Obergefell v. Hodges is simply another in a long line of majority decisions in which courts have paid mere lip service to the idea of free exercise, one of the First Amendment's core concepts, while inventing competing concepts out of mysterious "penumbras" and "implications," if not doing so out of whole cloth entirely.  True, nobody has called for the repeal of the First Amendment ... yet.  But today's Precious Little Snowflakes are tomorrow's appellate lawyers and judges.

Nevermind about answering the questions....thanks anyway!

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That's not true.  It maybe isn't your issue, but the title and opening post perfectly state what is in the content of the article and the results of the study posted:

If you want to discuss a different issue, then please start another thread.  But don't claim I've misstated what's in the article I was posting to discuss.  The question posed wasn't do you just tolerate SSM,  it was: ""Do you strongly favor, favor, oppose, or strongly oppose allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally?"  With these choices to mark:

- Strongly Favor

- Favor

- Oppose

- Strongly Oppose

So no, the issue wasn't whether younger members of the church "have tolerance" for SSM.

False.  "Your OP title is "New Research Reports Most Younger Mormons Now Support SSM", but that isn't what those four choices entail, and are not designed to show. One could phrase the choices differently (as several on this thread have pointed out), but that was not done.  The survey could have asked whether someone supports SSM, but that would not tell us why or in what way.  Surveys are often poorly designed, and do not actually tell us what we need to know.  This is simply another example.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Kenngo1969]

 

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Nevermind about answering the questions....thanks anyway!

Any time!  Glad I could help!  

For some reason (probably because I have this stubborn streak which compels me to persist in my non-responsive obstinacy; I'm funny that way ) this thread brings to mind this bit of prose from Pastor Martin Neimoller (please forgive the fact that he was ... Ahem! ... religious, even though this Board purportedly is supposed to be dedicated to the discussion of ... religious topics.)
 

Quote

 

First They Came
Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  "Your OP title is "New Research Reports Most Younger Mormons Now Support SSM", but that isn't what those four choices entail, and are not designed to show. 

Sure they are.  If someone is strongly in favor of or in favor of something, they support it.  Would you feel better if I changed the sentence to say "New Research Reports Most Younger Mormons Strongly Favor or Favor SSM"?  I can do that if it'll make you feel better about it.

But. I''m not going to argue this with you.  Those are the words in the question that are used.  A majority of those in the younger age group of Mormons chose those words ("Strongly Favor" or "Favor).

ETA:

I changed the title to be more precise 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Robert, just to be clear.....you made that appear as if it was a quote from me and it is not.  (And I specifically made note of disagreement with the part you put in bold as well.)

Do you mind editing your comment and making it clear that quote was written by someone else?  Thanks

You will note that I did not attribute that statement to you (I said "someone"), but you are right to ask me to put it in a box, so I have.  Sorry.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You will note that I did not attribute that statement to you (I said "someone"), but you are right to ask me to put it in a box, so I have.  Sorry.

This post (it's still showing as a quote by me...at least on my computer):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70505-new-research-reports-most-younger-mormons-now-support-ssm/?do=findComment&comment=1209815348

Thanks!

Edited May 2, 2018 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Sure they are.  If someone is strongly in favor of or in favor of something, they support it.

I'm not going to argue this with you.  Those are the words in the question that are used.  A majority of those in the younger age group of Mormons chose those words ("Strongly Favor" or "Favor).

(And will you please correct your other post to show that quote is by someone else, not from me....thanks!)

Reporters will often claim that the headline actually reflects the content of their article, but that is seldom the case, as presently.  You're fudging, Larson.  As some others have suggested, the questions might have been phrased better -- and conclusions drawn therefrom more accurately reflecting the conclusions.  I also detected some animus directed toward the LDS leadership, which is fine as long as it is acknowledged.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Reporters will often claim that the headline actually reflects the content of their article, but that is seldom the case, as presently. 

Note my edit above....changed the word support to the words: "'Strongly Favor' or 'Favor'".

[ALarson]

46 minutes ago, JulieM said:

All very true.  I work with the young women now and this topic is important to them.  I have to say that the majority support their gay friends and their right to marry.  Lots of rainbows drawn on their binders with “gay pride” in rainbow colors.  This next generation will not be opposing gay marriage (the majority of them), imo.

Yes, I'm seeing this with the youth as well.  We even have an openly gay Priest and he is very well accepted.  I do think that some of the support for SSM is because it's kind of the cool thing to do right now....but I doubt that's much of it.  I believe most of the youth sincerely love their gay friends and family members and want them to have happiness in their life.  If that includes SSM, then they are supportive.

But, I also see that if one of their gay friends wanted to stay celibate or made other choices, then they support that too.  I don't hear that as openly talked about though as the other. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

Just now, ALarson said:

Note my edit above....changed the word support to the words: "'Strongly Favor' or 'Favor'".

I greatly respect that correction and clarity. Also, the context is that they strongly favor or favor "allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally." 

I find this has a different meaning than "favoring same sex marriage."

[kllindley]

Just now, ALarson said:

Yes, I'm seeing this with the youth as well.  We even have an openly gay Priest and he is very well accepted.  I do think that some of the support for SSM is because it's kind of the cool thing to do right now....but I doubt that's much of it.  I believe most of the youth sincerely love their gay friends and family members and want them to have happiness in their life.  If that includes SSM, then they are supportive.

And I respect and value that love and support. It makes me very happy to hear this. We had two mostly closeted youth driven out of activity due to negative comments and reactions from peers and young men's leaders in our Ward in the last two years. That made me so sad and angry. 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I greatly respect that correction and clarity. Also, the context is that they strongly favor or favor "allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally." 

I find this has a different meaning than "favoring same sex marriage."

You mean there is a deeper meaning that they could actually be marrying the opposite sex (a gay or lesbian)?  Possibly....

But I highly doubt many (if any) thought that and knew it was a question regarding how they felt about SSM....especially using the word "couples".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though?

Edited May 2, 2018 by ALarson

[blueglass]

The rising generation does not understand the splitting of love and law which Elder oaks speaks about.  They believe in Galatians 5:14 , "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."  

 

[The Nehor]

I would support allowing SSM in the gospel but it is not up to me and God does not need me drumming up support to make it happen. I pray for more revelation on the matter to come to the brethren. If such a revelation comes I will cheer. If not, then it does not.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, blueglass said:

The rising generation does not understand the splitting of love and law which Elder oaks speaks about.  They believe in Galatians 5:14 , "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."  

 

The rising generation threw some garbage on my lawn today. They need to work some more on this.

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You mean there is a deeper meaning that they could actually be marrying the opposite sex (a gay or lesbian)?  Possibly....

But I highly doubt many (if any) thought that and knew it was a question regarding how they felt about SSM....especially using the word "couples".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though?

I'm sorry. You are misunderstanding me. I'm saying that favoring "allowing. . .to marry legally" is different than "favoring the marriage.". One (the actual survey question) focuses on allowing people the freedom to choose. The title implies favoring the relationship itself. 

Maybe it would make it more clear to look at the negative. The way the question is worded, I would have to oppose allowing them to legally marry. The negative of the "summary" is that I would oppose the marriages. 

I can both support allowing them to marry while in principle opposing the action.  Like I support legalizing marijuana, whole opposing its recreational use. If a majority of church members support legalizing marijuana, it would not be correct to assume that the majority support marijuana use. 

[kllindley]

I forgot to finish my thought that while I have loads of empathy and understanding for those who decide to enter a same-sex relationship, and believe they deserve the best love and kindness we can muster, I would certainly hope that youth are being taught that this isn't the only path to happiness and fulfillment.

I believe that leaders who fail to teach the truth about chastity, sexuality, marriage, and eternal identity in order to push a worldly, political agenda on youth in the Church are guilty of serious abuses of power and betrayal of trust. 

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I'm sorry. You are misunderstanding me. I'm saying that favoring "allowing. . .to marry legally" is different than "favoring the marriage.". One (the actual survey question) focuses on allowing people the freedom to choose. The title implies favoring the relationship itself. 

Maybe it would make it more clear to look at the negative. The way the question is worded, I would have to oppose allowing them to legally marry. The negative of the "summary" is that I would oppose the marriages. 

I can both support allowing them to marry while in principle opposing the action.  Like I support legalizing marijuana, whole opposing its recreational use. If a majority of church members support legalizing marijuana, it would not be correct to assume that the majority support marijuana use. 

Oh, ok...I see what you're saying.  I'm not sure I would differentiate (at least for myself and my beliefs), but others may.  Thanks for clarifying!

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I'm sorry. You are misunderstanding me. I'm saying that favoring "allowing. . .to marry legally" is different than "favoring the marriage.". One (the actual survey question) focuses on allowing people the freedom to choose. The title implies favoring the relationship itself. 

Maybe it would make it more clear to look at the negative. The way the question is worded, I would have to oppose allowing them to legally marry. The negative of the "summary" is that I would oppose the marriages. 

I can both support allowing them to marry while in principle opposing the action.  Like I support legalizing marijuana, whole opposing its recreational use. If a majority of church members support legalizing marijuana, it would not be correct to assume that the majority support marijuana use. 

This is accurate. Most LDS realize we lost and no longer oppose legalization of SSM because there is no point. While I would say many long for SSM to be accepted in the gospel for compassionate reasons (for themselves, for people they care about, because they see it as fair or right) and some will support it for less idealistic reasons (embarrassed at the church's stance, wanting to agree with general consensus for social reasons, want a quick same-sex fling). 

[Eek!]

 

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

In this recent article, it state that although most Mormons (53%) still oppose gay marriage, this opposition is "fading fast" because most younger LDS support it:

It's not just the kids.

I know of at least one fifty-something-years-old lifelong very active Mormon who stopped paying tithing several years ago when she learned (from active fellow Mormons) that tithing funds were being used to support an anti-gay political agenda.  She is not about to the leave the church; she just feels strongly that her donations were misused for something she never would have consented to, so she will not be paying tithing again until she knows that's not going to happen again.  She has nothing against paying fast offering because she knows it won't be misused in that way.   I happen to know this because I'm married to her. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Eek!

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Hence the question asked in the article: "What happens when the membership no longer believes what the leadership is teaching?”

They will find themselves no longer being members, like others who have decided to not believe other things. 
I think most church members will eventually come to the opinion that they don't really care that there are laws supporting SSM.
But I think most will always agree that the Church should not allow it within their own membership. That's a doctrine that can never change.
That's right; I used the "N" word.

[JulieM]

28 minutes ago, JAHS said:

They will find themselves no longer being members, like others who have decided to not believe other things. 

That’s not true and so extreme!  Many members would support SSM for a friend or loved one (many already do).  They’re still a member of the church.  Do you have to believe everything the leaders believe in order to be an active member?

I know so many who do not support the new policy, but who are still good members.

Edited May 2, 2018 by JulieM

[Exiled]

It is biological and who are we to question what people do in the privacy of their own homes.  Move on.  The world isn't going to heck if a small percentage of society has certain preferences that are different from ours.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

As a Libertarian, the SLTrib doesn't speak for me politically, just as Deseret News doesn't speak for me spiritually.  Nor do cleverly crafted sophist surveys speak for me.  Crafted too many of those surveys in college, designed to elicit a specific reaction while claiming objectivity. Nah, brah - convincing arguments take different shapes, like logic, reason, science, math.

What I'd like to see is a survey like that which included questions about acceptability of polyamory, polygamy, polygyny, etc.

A few versus come to mind though, about the rising generation, to say nothing about how the odds are stacked against their spiritual develpment more than any other generation in history

3 Nephi 1:30

30 And thus were the Lamanites afflicted also, and began to decrease as to their faith and righteousness, because of the wickedness of the ^arising generation.

Mosiah 26:1

1 Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the ^awords of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did ^bnot believe the tradition of their fathers.

The problem with your statement is that it is not only the rising generation that is in opposition the the teachings of the leaders of the church.   40% of all Mormons are against the teachings of the church leaders.  There was a 23 point sift among even the older members of the church as well in JUST 2 years.  The only thing you could honestly say is that the rising generation is leading the way.