Jeanne Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mormons Talk said: What a historic day for the Church! With the calling of the two new apostles, senior church leadership is the most diverse it's ever been - it includes a German, an Asian-American, a Brazilian, and a Nazarene (my perennial favorite). I've updated my personal edition of the Church's organization chart accordingly (below). I love this particular picture of the Savior.. 1
Duncan Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, cinepro said: Don't assume too much. I know several missionaries who served in Taiwan but have totally forgotten any Chinese they learned... I also know a returned missionary from Taiwan who was white as the driven snow and served in the LAPD for several decades. He never got tired of the look on Chinese-speaking crooks' faces when they spoke among themselves in Chinese and he let them know he spoke Chinese too. I know a guy in my ward who served in Taiwan, personality of a pancake.........
CMZ Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: What special experience does Gong bring about China? He many not even speak Mandarin or Cantonese and has he even been to China? He was President over the Asia area but that involves a lot more than just China. Dangerous to fall into stereotyping. Not stereotyping when it's actually true.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: There is absolutely no reason it can't be both. I can think of a pretty good one: Isaiah 55:8.
clarkgoble Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Gray said: Could be difficult, China is moving backwards into greater totalitarianism at the moment. Still missionary work has severely underperformed in Asia the past 20 years or more. While China proper may be hard, Gong's extensive knowledge of the area will be helpful. He speaks not only fluent Chinese but Russian as well. He also has many connections from his State Department days. Just getting a break such that things are rethought could be helpful. 1
Gray Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I can think of a pretty good one: Isaiah 55:8. Probably there are no human beings involved at all in the process.
juliann Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: Don't assume too much. I know several missionaries who served in Taiwan but have totally forgotten any Chinese they learned... I also know a returned missionary from Taiwan who was white as the driven snow and served in the LAPD for several decades. He never got tired of the look on Chinese-speaking crooks' faces when they spoke among themselves in Chinese and he let them know he spoke Chinese too. My SIL served a Chinese speaking NYC mission. He ended up in China for a year. He has Irish pale skin and red hair. We were at a train station somewhere in China and a man was grousing to his wife that Americans only knew how to say hello in Chinese as they passed, and he responded in Chinese, "yes, Americans only know how to say hello!" My little grandson is going to a Chinese immersion school. 3
Stargazer Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Jeanne said: I don't think they were so much whining as to the why of others being just as worthy. Just my opinion. You know, worthiness is not necessarily the issue. In any given stake of Zion there are any number of men and women who are worthy and capable of serving as bishops, relief society presidents, and stake presidents. When the Lord is spoiled for choice, He picks a few from the many who could do it -- and this is not a cloud upon the "worthiness" of those who are not chosen. It is perhaps a commentary on whom does the Lord trust the most, or wish to prove the most. These callings such as Apostle are NOT opportunities to self-aggrandize. They are NOT rewards for faithful service (that is something that awaits in heaven). They are serious and overwhelming opportunities for unstinting and exhausting service with little or no earthly reward. And perhaps the Lord took His time in calling men of these ethnicities until the Saints were ready for them. And perhaps He is rewarding US for our improved tolerance? Or allowing us to recognize in the clearest way possible, that the Lord's Church is truly an international and multiethnic one. Or maybe all those and more. 4
carbon dioxide Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Still missionary work has severely underperformed in Asia the past 20 years or more. While China proper may be hard, Gong's extensive knowledge of the area will be helpful. He speaks not only fluent Chinese but Russian as well. He also has many connections from his State Department days. Just getting a break such that things are rethought could be helpful. Asia as a whole does not have much of a Christian tradition. I would think it would be harder in places like that. I don't think it is "underperformed". It probably is where it should be expected. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I can think of a pretty good one: Isaiah 55:8. I don't find that scripture relevant. God could have directed their callings, sure. God could have done so in response to prayers or a specific desire on his part to address concerns of his children. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't find that scripture relevant. God could have directed their callings, sure. God could have done so in response to prayers or a specific desire on his part to address concerns of his children. Prayers and "specific desire" =\= public and political pressure.
bsjkki Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) https://www.yahoo.com/news/mormon-conference-ushers-leaders-church-faces-scrutiny-050209721.html Here is a link about this...it was linked at a major news website. “Making a sports analogy, Garcia said the religion has many great minority leaders on the "bench"(mid-tier leadership councils) and now for first time, two in the "starting lineup" (Quorum of the Twelve). It's likely an indication of the religion's future since indigenous members are who will help sustain the church going forward, Garcia said. "Those are the ones that are growing: black and brown and Asian," he said. "That's the future of the church." Edited March 31, 2018 by bsjkki 1
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Prayers and "specific desire" =\= public and political pressure. "Public pressure" leads to prayers on topics. Our leaders aren't blind. I see no reason why President Nelson couldn't have recognized the concerns of members and their desire (ie social pressure) for a more diverse leadership. Then when taking the questions of who to call and how to address these challenges was given a revelation calling our newest two apostles. The pressures from members (and outsiders) have often led our leaders to take things to the Lord and receive revelation in response. The idea that revelation comes in answer to question or concern is well established. And if enough people share the same concerns and want answers, that's called public, or member, pressure. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 4 hours ago, CMZ said: Not sure that's the proper way of looking at it. The Lord makes the calls. In a manner of speaking, yes, but His servants must be aware of and open to his choices. There is always the human factor, and it has an unknown and unquantifiable influence. I have heard it said that "Man proposes, but God disposes." However, I think that it should be the other way around -- just to be realistic. 1
clarkgoble Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 59 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Asia as a whole does not have much of a Christian tradition. I would think it would be harder in places like that. I don't think it is "underperformed". It probably is where it should be expected. Compared to other Christian growth ours is extremely slow. Seventh Day Adventists in particular have done quite well. I suspect our one size fits all approach to missionary programs and meetings is part of the problem.
Thinking Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 On 3/26/2018 at 4:39 PM, Thinking said: There will be no shifting. If a non-white apostle is called who is young enough to ascend to the presidency, we'll shut up about that issue.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: "Public pressure" leads to prayers on topics. Our leaders aren't blind. I see no reason why President Nelson couldn't have recognized the concerns of members and their desire (ie social pressure) for a more diverse leadership. Then when taking the questions of who to call and how to address these challenges was given a revelation calling our newest two apostles. The pressures from members (and outsiders) have often led our leaders to take things to the Lord and receive revelation in response. The idea that revelation comes in answer to question or concern is well established. And if enough people share the same concerns and want answers, that's called public, or member, pressure. There was public pressure last time as well. Yet three non-ethnic (for want of a better term) men were called. You make it seem as though God were subject to manipulation by public pressure with the Church leadership as the intermediary for said pressure.
Gray Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: There was public pressure last time as well. Yet three non-ethnic (for want of a better term) men were called. You make it seem as though God were subject to manipulation by public pressure with the Church leadership as the intermediary for said pressure. There's a different president of the church this time. And of course the pool of candidates will always be limited, and that might be where you get the most conscious human element in the process. Some candidates are proposed based on various factors, and they pray for guidance in choosing which to call, yes? The candidate pool is always limited, but I'm sure it helps to make sure that some candidates from diverse backgrounds are represented in that pool, yes?
Scott Lloyd Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, Gray said: There's a different president of the church this time. And of course the pool of candidates will always be limited, and that might be where you get the most conscious human element in the process. Some candidates are proposed based on various factors, and they pray for guidance in choosing which to call, yes? The candidate pool is always limited, but I'm sure it helps to make sure that some candidates from diverse backgrounds are represented in that pool, yes? I'm not clear on how this relates to public pressure as opposed to divine revelation allegedly driving the selection of new apostles.
JLHPROF Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm not clear on how this relates to public pressure as opposed to divine revelation allegedly driving the selection of new apostles. The mere fact that they took great pains to point out that 40% of the GAs are not from the USA shows they are actively addressing this concern. Or the Lord is. Take your pick. 2
CMZ Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: In a manner of speaking, yes, but His servants must be aware of and open to his choices. There is always the human factor, and it has an unknown and unquantifiable influence. I have heard it said that "Man proposes, but God disposes." However, I think that it should be the other way around -- just to be realistic. Well, yes. My comment is not to imply that callings are made in the complete absence of human knowledge. I was getting at those who think the Church just gave into pressure. 1
CMZ Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 40 minutes ago, Gray said: There's a different president of the church this time. And of course the pool of candidates will always be limited, and that might be where you get the most conscious human element in the process. Some candidates are proposed based on various factors, and they pray for guidance in choosing which to call, yes? The candidate pool is always limited, but I'm sure it helps to make sure that some candidates from diverse backgrounds are represented in that pool, yes? The candidate pool for a new apostle is literally over a million different people. Maybe many times that.
Calm Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, CMZ said: The candidate pool for a new apostle is literally over a million different people. Maybe many times that. Not if you require experience of a certain sort, don't want to have to provide intensive training on everything relating to leadership. Edited April 1, 2018 by Calm 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The mere fact that they took great pains to point out that 40% of the GAs are not from the USA shows they are actively addressing this concern. Or the Lord is. Take your pick. I also took note that it was Pres Oaks who made that comment.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 1, 2018 Posted April 1, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The mere fact that they took great pains to point out that 40% of the GAs are not from the USA shows they are actively addressing this concern. Or the Lord is. Take your pick. This is not saying it's social pressure that's driving it. It may be just a matter of pointing out that the Lord is in charge and does not need counseling from ark steadiers. Needless to say, I pick the Lord. Edited April 1, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
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