Diversity in the Quorum! Elders Soares and Gong

[The Nehor]

Realistically the diversity is more needed in the Seventy. They are usually the "boots on the ground" who need to know the local culture, language, etc. so it is important to get Area Authority Seventies in their own areas or areas they are familiar with if possible. The Twelve have different requirements. There have always been many people throughout the Church that could be Apostles but are needed at lower levels. It was only at the end of the Second World War that the counsel to gather physically really died off. When I was in Britain in the 90s it was rare to find anyone more than two generations back in the church for that reason. Now that we are starting to have an excess of homegrown leadership throughout the world it makes sense to call more apostles from those areas. I do not think it is coincidence that both of the foreign-born apostles we have come from areas that had big missionary emphases and success establishing/reestablishing the Church following the Second World War (Germany and Brazil). As the church strengthens in other areas in future decades we will probably see more. Africa and Asia are much more recent in terms of moving in missionaries.

I have said that we should expect some from outside the United States in the early 2000's for several years and that makes much more sense than the Apostles picking token foreigners to appease our critics.

39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is not saying it's social pressure that's driving it. It may be just a matter of pointing out that the Lord is in charge and does not need to be counseling from ark steadiers.

Needless to say, I pick the Lord.

Yeah, this.

Also, I bet there is someone on the other side of the veil working to keep all Presidents of the Church going forward American. John Taylor. If we get another non-American born one he stops being special as the only one. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by The Nehor

[gopher]

Now we can accuse critics of racism whenever they criticize the Q12.  At least that's how we roll where I live.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, CMZ said:

The candidate pool for a new apostle is literally over a million different people. Maybe many times that.

That would be logistically impossible.

[Gray]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm not clear on how this relates to public pressure as opposed to divine revelation allegedly driving the selection of new apostles.

I'm saying if the potential candidates considered were always white, then it follows that a white guy will always be chosen. If in response to the call for greater diversity, some non-white candidates were considered and prayed about, that could have lead to our first two non-white candidates being called.

[stemelbow]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How sad that one would believe the appointment of these two leaders was driven by public or political pressure rather than divine revelation. 

I don’t see a reason to be upset by such a thought of the brethren listening, Scott.  It can be both.  If they listen to others, which is a good sign to me, then it’s pausible God used others to help them.  That too is a good think not a negative.  

[stemelbow]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, your sacrifice and longsuffering work towards making this day happen will not be forgotten. You are truly a hero. 

No need to lash out the nehor.  I did not intend to offend you.  This notion that the brethren might actual listen to others is a positive thing to me.  I didn’t take credit.  Peace to you.

[Bernard Gui]

I won’t be happy until we have a Pole on the podium. Elder Zivic’s grandmother was a Polish Jew!!!

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

The long awaited day when non-white male diversity would come to the Quorum of the 12 has arrived.   Expect amazing and ground-breaking change to occur in about 30 years.

It will be amazing and ground-breaking when we stop counting the colors of people’s faces. Now that would be a real breakthrough.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

Elder Gerrit W. Gong

Elder Ulisses Soares

The long awaited day when non-white male diversity would come to the Quorum of the 12 has arrived.   Expect amazing and ground-breaking change to occur in about 30 years.

Very likely that Elder Soares represents some diversity for those with some African ancesrtry as well!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

No need to lash out the nehor.  I did not intend to offend you.  This notion that the brethren might actual listen to others is a positive thing to me.  I didn’t take credit.  Peace to you.

Of course there is no need. It is just fun.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don’t see a reason to be upset by such a thought of the brethren listening, Scott.  It can be both.  If they listen to others, which is a good sign to me, then it’s pausible God used others to help them.  That too is a good think not a negative.  

I just now heard the president of the Church affirm that the Lord inspired the call of Elders Gong and Soares.

He did not mention social pressure.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I just now heard the president of the Church affirm that the Lord inspired the call of Elders Gong and Soares.

He did not mention social pressure.

And I seriously doubt the prophet is worried about protecting the fair weather support of those discomfited by a supposed lack of diversity in the Quorum. They are not exactly the stalwarts overflowing with faith.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I'm saying if the potential candidates considered were always white, then it follows that a white guy will always be chosen. If in response to the call for greater diversity, some non-white candidates were considered and prayed about, that could have lead to our first two non-white candidates being called.

So you really think it never occurred to Church leaders to consider "non-white candidates" until outsiders agitated for it? What about the longtime rich ethnic diversity in the quorums of the Seventy?

[stemelbow]

59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I just now heard the president of the Church affirm that the Lord inspired the call of Elders Gong and Soares.

He did not mention social pressure.

Why would anyone expect otherwise?  

[Calm]

For those interested, a bio by a friend of Elder Gong.

http://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2018/03/gerrit-walter-gong.html

Edited April 1, 2018 by Calm

[SteveO]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Why would anyone expect otherwise?  

This response is the reason sacred, spiritual events aren’t shared over the pulpit.  President Nelson shared a very detailed account of how these men were prayerfully considered and selected by revelation.  And you just dismiss it.  It’s not how you think it went down, so President Nelson must be intentionally leaving details out to save face?

Edited April 1, 2018 by SteveO

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I just now heard the president of the Church affirm that the Lord inspired the call of Elders Gong and Soares.

He did not mention social pressure.

Once again, not mutually exclusive.  It can still be both.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Once again, not mutually exclusive.  It can still be both.

Other than the post hoc fallacy, there's nothing here to compel the belief that outside agitation drove these appointments.

[Gray]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you really think it never occurred to Church leaders to consider "non-white candidates" until outsiders agitated for it? What about the longtime rich ethnic diversity in the quorums of the Seventy?

I have no idea how it worked in practice. I would guess they weren't being considered very often until now. But the long uninterrupted stream of white guys in the Q12 suggests some kind of human kink in the process that favored white guys.  That's common across many organizations - there usually has to be some kind of deliberate effort to change things up.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Other than the post hoc fallacy, there's nothing here to compel the belief that outside agitation drove these appointments.

I don't believe agitation caused these appointments.  I believe outside agitation and concerns prompted President Nelson to pray for direction to address it.

[CMZ]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

That would be logistically impossible.

Apostles can be chosen from the general membership of the Church.

[CV75]

On March 31, 2018 at 12:33 PM, cinepro said:

I don't know much about either of the new Elders, but Elder Gong has an especially strong resume.  In spite of what I just said, he will no doubt be an important voice on international matters:

And his name has a nice ring to it.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

And his name has a nice ring to it.

That hurt.  No point for you.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

This response is the reason sacred, spiritual events aren’t shared over the pulpit.  President Nelson shared a very detailed account of how these men were prayerfully considered and selected by revelation.  And you just dismiss it.  It’s not how you think it went down, so President Nelson must be intentionally leaving details out to save face?

I didn’t say any of that.  

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn’t say any of that.  

You didn’t need to.