rongo Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: FWIW: While I personally believe both are sins, I think the degree of sin when it comes to masturbation is much closer to having an iced coffee or swearing than it is to adultery. Very much agree. It is not tantamount to adultery or fornication, because those actually do involve other people (and infidelity in the case of adultery). The burden with masturbation (and many other personal sins) is loss of the Spirit/spiritual power, unworthiness, etc. As I've said before, it doesn't make one an awful person. Part of the test of mortality is the temptations that accrue because of the union between body and spirit, and habits and addictions are easy to develop because of the mortal condition. But that doesn't mean that attempts shouldn't be made to overcome this and to master and discipline ourselves.
rongo Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I have to say I've seen some interesting stuff discussed here, but I never expected "sex with robots." The other day I read about a business in Paris where men (so far) can pay to spend an hour with a sex robot. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43506621 All I can say is that I would hope they use some very strong disinfectants. Yes, very icky. I think the wave of the future will be private property, not rentals . . . There are brothels that are going fully "automated," and there have been news reports of discussion of the economic implications of displaced prostitutes. The technology is increasingly more lifelike and programmable, and there are increasing reports and predictions about women soon not needing men at all for anything. If members in the future ask their bishop (or a friend, or parent, or child, or whomever) to explain why sex with robots is a sin, what would all of *you* answer? Edited March 29, 2018 by rongo
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, rongo said: Very much agree. It is not tantamount to adultery or fornication, because those actually do involve other people (and infidelity in the case of adultery). The burden with masturbation (and many other personal sins) is loss of the Spirit/spiritual power, unworthiness, etc. As I've said before, it doesn't make one an awful person. Part of the test of mortality is the temptations that accrue because of the union between body and spirit, and habits and addictions are easy to develop because of the mortal condition. But that doesn't mean that attempts shouldn't be made to overcome this and to master and discipline ourselves. Precisely!! And I think it was you who said that sometimes the effort is more important than the progress. But that means you don't just give up and give in. I'm curious about what you mean with masturbation and unworthiness. Unworthy of what? What level of masturbation?
rongo Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 minute ago, kllindley said: Precisely!! And I think it was you who said that sometimes the effort is more important than the progress. But that means you don't just give up and give in. I'm curious about what you mean with masturbation and unworthiness. Unworthy of what? What level of masturbation? It drives away the Spirit (which can be restored through repentance). What I meant by unworthy is separation from God (which happens with any sin). As you indicate, the level (or incidence) of masturbation is a factor. There are people (men and women) who are in thrall, who cannot go a few days without it. This is a much more serious spiritual problem than someone who slips up every few months or so. As Elder Ballard, Rasband, and Acosta taught us, there is a big difference between pervasive patterns and isolated incidents.
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I have to say I've seen some interesting stuff discussed here, but I never expected "sex with robots." This is kinda funny to me. I get that I'm probably well below the median age around here, and that I work in a very "progressive" field, but I honestly don't see how this conversation is avoidable once we start to question the Church's positions on sexual morals.
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, rongo said: It drives away the Spirit (which can be restored through repentance). What I meant by unworthy is separation from God (which happens with any sin). As you indicate, the level (or incidence) of masturbation is a factor. There are people (men and women) who are in thrall, who cannot go a few days without it. This is a much more serious spiritual problem than someone who slips up every few months or so. As Elder Ballard, Rasband, and Acosta taught us, there is a big difference between pervasive patterns and isolated incidents. Gotcha. I took that as a reference to like being unworthy of callings or a recommend. And that surprised me. But what you say makes sense and I agree.
jkwilliams Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: This is kinda funny to me. I get that I'm probably well below the median age around here, and that I work in a very "progressive" field, but I honestly don't see how this conversation is avoidable once we start to question the Church's positions on sexual morals. I should say, I find the whole topic more than a little hilarious.
Gray Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, rongo said: That's a much more dangerous hypothetical fraught with peril. If the Church decides it's no longer a sin, then the slippery slope crumbles and avalanches. What other deep-seated or long-tenured teaching will suddenly be changed in the future? Can anyone insist with confidence that, say, adultery or homosexual activity will never likewise be decided are no longer sins? Etc. Such a change wouldn't change my own personal beliefs, or my family's. One form of adultery (divorce and remarriage) is already excused in church doctrine. Masturbation isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture or revelation, and as far as I can tell entered the consciousness of the church starting in the mid-20th century. Presumably the church was doing well enough before it started to concern itself with the topic. Edited March 29, 2018 by Gray 1
HappyJackWagon Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 For the record, I'm against sx with robots. Equipment malfunctions could prove catastrophic. Reminds me of an episode of the Big Bang Theory. https://youtu.be/ocI71MIElP8
bluebell Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, rongo said: I agree. Would you include using props on a smaller scale as a mockery as well? Or just on a large scale, like person-sized? And then, if one engages in it without props (large or small scale), how is that really any different? I think that gets at the crux. Sex really is intended by God for us to be used, as the Church teaches, properly between husband and wife, and nowhere else. Whatever permutation could be imagined outside of that is a sin. Modern arguments that engaging in it by one's self is harmless, healthy, and near universal is included, I think, in the sins of this generation. I feel like we are getting pretty close to the line that the mods (and most posters, myself included) aren't interested in seeing crossed on here. You're asking for details that I don't want to get into. Besides that though, I think it's important to distinguish between sex and masturbation. They are not the same thing, but they are similar. I don't see a lot of evidence (other than the teachings of our leaders) that masturbation is a permutation of sex and that's why it's a sin. And again i'm not arguing that it's not a sin, only that I don't see a lot of use in equating sex and masturbation. 3
Duncan Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 5 hours ago, rongo said: Very much agree. It is not tantamount to adultery or fornication, because those actually do involve other people (and infidelity in the case of adultery). The burden with masturbation (and many other personal sins) is loss of the Spirit/spiritual power, unworthiness, etc. As I've said before, it doesn't make one an awful person. Part of the test of mortality is the temptations that accrue because of the union between body and spirit, and habits and addictions are easy to develop because of the mortal condition. But that doesn't mean that attempts shouldn't be made to overcome this and to master and discipline ourselves. do you think that sex with a spouse can be addictive? can it to lead to a loss of spirit, unworthiness all that good stuff?
Calm Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, kllindley said: This is kinda funny to me. I get that I'm probably well below the median age around here, and that I work in a very "progressive" field, but I honestly don't see how this conversation is avoidable once we start to question the Church's positions on sexual morals. I think you can have an extensive conversation about sexual morals without ever once going to "sex with robots". That seems like a very modern, first world problem that the vast majority of humanity has not even imagined. Edited March 30, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: For the record, I'm against sx with robots. Equipment malfunctions could prove catastrophic. Reminds me of an episode of the Big Bang Theory I think that crosses the line.
CA Steve Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, Calm said: I think that crosses the line. That's what Howard Wolowitz said.
The Nehor Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, rongo said: This is really true. It is a hot topic in the realm of ethics. It is not inconceivable at all for, in the future, some LDS to argue that sex with robots harms nobody and should not be considered a sin for worthiness purposes. The basic question is exactly the same: I was asked to explain why masturbation is a sin. Well, why would sex with robots be a sin? I'm actually surprised that no one has attempted to answer that. My own answer is exactly the same explanation as why masturbation is a sin, so I'm interested in how people who disagree with me on that would explain with respect to robots. I thought the answer was obvious:
kllindley Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 38 minutes ago, Calm said: I think you can have an extensive conversation about sexual morals without ever once going to "sex with robots". That seems like a very modern, first world problem that the vast majority of humanity has not even imagined. It's true. The majority of humanity just raped women and children as objects of conquest. I think "sex with robots" is a misnomer for what is now happening. Using technology for sexual gratification.
kllindley Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Duncan said: do you think that sex with a spouse can be addictive? can it to lead to a loss of spirit, unworthiness all that good stuff? I'm not rongo, but I absolutely believe it can be addictive. No question. And yes it can be spiritually corrosive. 1
rongo Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, kllindley said: I'm not rongo, but I absolutely believe it can be addictive. No question. And yes it can be spiritually corrosive. Seconded. This is especially true if both spouses aren't on the same page about frequency or "the details," and it can then cause big problems. This can then cause real problems with loss of the Spirit, unworthiness, etc.
Calm Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, kllindley said: It's true. The majority of humanity just raped women and children as objects of conquest. I think "sex with robots" is a misnomer for what is now happening. Using technology for sexual gratification. I am not going to disagree.
Storm Rider Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Well now, for a thread about Sam Young and apostasy this thread seems to have wandered very far form the topic. How about we focus on the topic of the thread and then start another thread to address sex with robots and any other permutation that you guys would like to discuss?
rongo Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Anyone still think that Sam Young is not dangerously close to apostasy territory, if not already there: https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/prnewswire/press_releases/Texas/2018/03/29/UN50362 He also notably omits "Jesus Christ" from the Church's name: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11VDVsFi2sQ2zU5XfMh-muQRjCIeddwUY/view This is looking more and more like a basketball player mugging the guy he's guarding, and then going full out drama queen when whistled for a foul. 1
Rain Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 8:38 AM, bsjkki said: How does this work with camp fees? Our region is having a lds regional encampment which is $375 per boy. I think this is a ridiculous amount of money to charge but I have no idea how the ward could pay these fees out of the ward budget. If we payed all camp fees for cub camp from the Primary budget, cubs would end up taking 3/4's of the primary budget. I like that you are able to do this and hate fundraisers. I honestly don't know how you do it. Our stake does day camp with the ward leaders helping. We have it on a Friday night and Sat morning with 1/2 the wards teaching each day. Dinner and brreakfast is included. The boys have a blast. It changed a few years ago when going to day camp was too expensive one year. The stake put it on the next year and it was so well done that they kept doing it. We get a generous budget for it, because, even being generous, it is still soooo much cheaper than scout day camp. 1
Storm Rider Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 55 minutes ago, rongo said: Anyone still think that Sam Young is not dangerously close to apostasy territory, if not already there: https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/prnewswire/press_releases/Texas/2018/03/29/UN50362 He also notably omits "Jesus Christ" from the Church's name: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11VDVsFi2sQ2zU5XfMh-muQRjCIeddwUY/view This is looking more and more like a basketball player mugging the guy he's guarding, and then going full out drama queen when whistled for a foul. I don't see how you can say anything else except that he has apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ.
Marginal Gains Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I don't see how you can say anything else except that he has apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ. A guy seeking institutional change to protect member children is in apostasy..... Meanwhile Joseph L Bishop is a member in good standing, and has been for 30 years. Edited March 30, 2018 by Marginal Gains 1
Storm Rider Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: A guy seeking institutional change to protect member children is in apostasy..... Meanwhile Joseph L Bishop is a member in good standing, and has been for 30 years. Hey Marginal Gains - to me the difference is one is sin and the other has a desire to publically attack the Church. There is not a direct correlation between the two actions except, and it is an important one, the willingness to disobey. If someone is looking for an opinion - the repentance process for Young is significantly shorter and different than the same for Bishop. But that is just me and I don't control either one of those things for these two individuals.
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