rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: I've seen both kinds of BSA camps. Some are horrible and some are awesome. I haven't noticed that the horrible ones are really any cheaper though. We've been to some good ones over the years, but they are way too expensive. The BSA newsletter came out a few months ago and was touting success stories with its new girls in Boy Scouts. I'll bet that there will now be girls at Scout camp. One more thing to really keep your eye on when you have 13-18 year-old boys and girls in a large camp setting with free time and places to hide out . . . 1
stemelbow Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Some wards are a lot better at fundraising than others. Our ward and my friend's ward each went to the same scout camp last year (a really good one four hours away next to yellowstone) and she had to pay $200 out of pocket for her boy and we didn't have to pay anything out of pocket for ours. But her ward is upper middle class to upper class and they don't even try to fundraise because most members are wealthy (it drives my friend crazy though because she sees value in fundraising and not every family in her ward has money to spare). Our ward's fundraiser is flags and it seems to pay for everything the ward needs. Our YW didn't have to pay anything out of pocket for girls camp either last year while her daughter had to pay $45. Different wards, different focus I guess. When you talk about fund raising isn't that just money donated in some way by ward members? That's how ours worked. It just meant instead of us paying the price for our own kid, the grandmas and stuff all donated money along with us so we didn't pay as much ourselves. I was like, "eh...I'll just pay it myself. Sister Vincent doesn't need to contribute money for my kid's activities."
jkwilliams Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Yeah....as I read that again I realized I wasn't clear. A couple of years ago, she was asked both by the bishop and SP in separate interviews, while she was being told about a stake calling they were giving her, about whether I masturbate and view porn. She basically laughed in their faces. I figured, at the time, I was considered a problem to them, as they told me so, and were probing for negative info about me. Then last year this same guy who was our bishop, in a casual setting asked her basically one on one, as a conversation died about between a few people, the questions I mentioned in my previous post. Meaning, he seemed to be negatively effected by the direction to disrespect people's boundaries and its carried over. I saw the interviews problematic for sure, but the questioning last year I saw as sexual harassment. Yikes, that's incredibly inappropriate. I think I would talk to the man, and if that failed, talk to your current bishop. 2
bluebell Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: When you talk about fund raising isn't that just money donated in some way by ward members? That's how ours worked. It just meant instead of us paying the price for our own kid, the grandmas and stuff all donated money along with us so we didn't pay as much ourselves. I was like, "eh...I'll just pay it myself. Sister Vincent doesn't need to contribute money for my kid's activities." No, our youth do a fundraiser where they visit everyone that lives within the ward boundaries and offer to set up and take down an American flag on the person's property 5 times through out the year (like memorial day, flag day, veteran's day, etc.) for a donation. The typical donation is $35 a home but people can give whatever they want. The ward owns all the flags and the things they put into the ground to be able to display them. Assigned kids and one or two parents go around in the morning of their assigned day to put up the flag and then go around again at night to collect them. Kids have to volunteer to take part in putting the flags up once a year. Most people within the ward boundaries do it (member and not, and we live next to Hill Air Force base so have a lot of nonmembers for a Utah ward) and it brings in enough money to cover all youth camps and then some extra.
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, bluebell said: Some wards are a lot better at fundraising than others. Our ward and my friend's ward each went to the same scout camp last year (a really good one four hours away next to yellowstone) and she had to pay $200 out of pocket for her boy and we didn't have to pay anything out of pocket for ours. But her ward is upper middle class to upper class and they don't even try to fundraise because most members are wealthy (it drives my friend crazy though because she sees value in fundraising and not every family in her ward has money to spare). Our ward's fundraiser is flags and it seems to pay for everything the ward needs. Our YW didn't have to pay anything out of pocket for girls camp either last year while her daughter had to pay $45. Different wards, different focus I guess. What do the YW do to fundraise? My old ward's YW make chocolate dipped strawberries for Mother's Day. Which I loved of course!
bluebell Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Just now, Tacenda said: What do the YW do to fundraise? My old ward's YW make chocolate dipped strawberries for Mother's Day. Which I loved of course! See my previous post to Stem.
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: See my previous post to Stem. I looked for it, but couldn't see it. Our YM sold flags too in our old ward. I was just curious what the YW did in your ward. But maybe you told Stem and I couldn't find it.
gopher Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, rongo said: You're at odds with what the Church teaches. It teaches that masturbation is a sin, and you wishing that it didn't doesn't change that. As a Bishop, what do you do when a 14 year old boy confesses to you that he masturbates? I'm assuming he wants to stop but hasn't been able to on his own. Is there any official guidance? Edited March 28, 2018 by gopher lousy tablet caused typo
bluebell Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I looked for it, but couldn't see it. Our YM sold flags too in our old ward. I was just curious what the YW did in your ward. But maybe you told Stem and I couldn't find it. Both the YM and the YW do the flags in my ward.
pogi Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I looked for it, but couldn't see it. Our YM sold flags too in our old ward. I was just curious what the YW did in your ward. But maybe you told Stem and I couldn't find it. It sounds like all the youth in her ward participate (YM and YW). That is how we do flags in our ward too - both YM and YW help out and split the donations. 1
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: Both the YM and the YW do the flags in my ward. Ok, sorry I missed that!
bluebell Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Ok, sorry I missed that! No worries.
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, gopher said: As a Bishop, what do you do when a 14 year old boy confesses to you that he masterbates? I'm assuming he wants to stop but hasn't been able to on his own. Is there any official guidance? That happens pretty frequently. I do everything I can to help him feel that God loves him, that he is a good boy, that he isn't the only one in this boat, and that with God's help, he will overcome this. I help him with the repentance process (usually, he has already asked God for forgiveness), and I encourage him to include his parents where possible (usually, and thankfully, he has already confided in his parents). One thing I emphasize is that where there are slip-ups, it is not necessary to come and confess them to me as long as he is repenting and trying. Where help is needed trying to stop, I offer suggestions and "war strategy." Then, it varies based on the individual. Hanging on my wall is my favorite scripture: D&C 117:13. Oliver Granger, elderly and legally blind, was assigned by the First Presidency to go to Ohio and negotiate payment terms with its creditors. His mission was a total disaster, and ultimately led to the Church having to declare bankruptcy. Section 117 includes his call, and he was told (paraphrasing) "And when he falls, he shall rise again, for his sacrifice is more sacred to me than his increase, saith the Lord." I use this to testify to people that, as they fall in trying to overcome, and rise again, that this sacrifice is more sacred to the Lord than our increase. Not "more important" --- the increase, or ultimately triumphing, is important, and will happen --- but our struggles in rising and falling and rising and falling and rising is "more sacred" to the Lord than our ultimate increase. He took our sins upon him, and he knows what it is like to be us and he knows what it is like to struggle with what we struggle with. And, our sacrifice in rising and falling is sacred to him. So, keep trying, he will help you, and we'll get through this! I also use this to discourage "toxic shame," or beating ourselves up in a counterproductive way. For people who struggle mightily (I call this "white knuckling through), I encourage them to look at it like the stock market. There can be ups and downs, but as long as the trend is upward, that is real progress, and we will build on that. For some, increasing the length and number of periods of "sobriety" or "abstinence" (and decreasing the number of slip-ups) is the short-term aim, and so I try to help them manage expectations and make tangible improvement. 4
bsjkki Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, rongo said: I do everything I can to help him feel that God loves him, that he is a good boy, that he isn't the only one in this boat, and that with God's help, he will overcome this. I help him with the repentance process (usually, he has already asked God for forgiveness), and I encourage him to include his parents where possible (usually, and thankfully, he has already confided in his parents). One thing I emphasize is that where there are slip-ups, it is not necessary to come and confess them to me as long as he is repenting and trying. Thank you for reinforcing these ideas. I wish every Bishop did. These messages can be sorely lacking in Bishop interviews/confessions. Without them, hopelessness can overwhelm. How would you help them with the repentance process? What does that look like? They've already felt bad about what they are doing, they have confessed their sins, they are working or have forsaken their sin. I'm not sure how you make restitution so I am curious what the repentance process looks like after the interview.
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, bsjkki said: Thank you for reinforcing these ideas. I wish every Bishop did. These messages can be sorely lacking in Bishop interviews/confessions. Without them, hopelessness can overwhelm. I really think that that most do. Most are fathers themselves, and many have had children who have struggled. Empathy is abundant for this, I think. How would you help them with the repentance process? What does that look like? They've already felt bad about what they are doing, they have confessed their sins, they are working or have forsaken their sin. I'm not sure how you make restitution so I am curious what the repentance process looks like after the interview. The principle is D&C 58:42-43: Confess and forsake your sins, and I, the Lord, will remember them no more. This isn't a "restitution" sin; repentance involves contrition, confessing, and forsaking. In my view, the confessing can be between the person and God, and need not involve priesthood authority, so long as there aren't worthiness things that need to be confessed (temple or ordinance worthiness). In general, I feel that one can manage one's own repentance between them, God, and their conscience. If it's a pervasive enough problem, then the decision needs to be made what level of restriction is appropriate or necessary (i.e., sacrament or other restrictions). In general, where possible sacrament should be encouraged for "striving Saints" who are trying. Often, when youth want to talk about it, they are seeking help and counsel in overcoming/stopping. They might not need help with the repenting, per se, other than the forsaking part. 2
Marginal Gains Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Not now the First Presidency have changed their mind and are agreeing with him.
gopher Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 3 hours ago, rongo said: That happens pretty frequently. I do everything I can to help him feel that God loves him, that he is a good boy, that he isn't the only one in this boat, and that with God's help, he will overcome this. I help him with the repentance process (usually, he has already asked God for forgiveness), and I encourage him to include his parents where possible (usually, and thankfully, he has already confided in his parents). One thing I emphasize is that where there are slip-ups, it is not necessary to come and confess them to me as long as he is repenting and trying. Where help is needed trying to stop, I offer suggestions and "war strategy." Then, it varies based on the individual. Hanging on my wall is my favorite scripture: D&C 117:13. Oliver Granger, elderly and legally blind, was assigned by the First Presidency to go to Ohio and negotiate payment terms with its creditors. His mission was a total disaster, and ultimately led to the Church having to declare bankruptcy. Section 117 includes his call, and he was told (paraphrasing) "And when he falls, he shall rise again, for his sacrifice is more sacred to me than his increase, saith the Lord." I use this to testify to people that, as they fall in trying to overcome, and rise again, that this sacrifice is more sacred to the Lord than our increase. Not "more important" --- the increase, or ultimately triumphing, is important, and will happen --- but our struggles in rising and falling and rising and falling and rising is "more sacred" to the Lord than our ultimate increase. He took our sins upon him, and he knows what it is like to be us and he knows what it is like to struggle with what we struggle with. And, our sacrifice in rising and falling is sacred to him. So, keep trying, he will help you, and we'll get through this! I also use this to discourage "toxic shame," or beating ourselves up in a counterproductive way. For people who struggle mightily (I call this "white knuckling through), I encourage them to look at it like the stock market. There can be ups and downs, but as long as the trend is upward, that is real progress, and we will build on that. For some, increasing the length and number of periods of "sobriety" or "abstinence" (and decreasing the number of slip-ups) is the short-term aim, and so I try to help them manage expectations and make tangible improvement. Thanks, I wonder if knowing this would change some parent's minds about their objections. Personally, I don't have a problem with a Bishop asking. Not all youths have the courage to admit it on their own so they may appreciate the Bishop initiating the conversation. I'm referring to youth that want to be obedient and want to repent. It's in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet, so why not ask? I think many youth who are struggling will appreciate it so they can begin or continue in their repentance. If the Church decides it's no longer a sin, then of course it won't need to be asked. What harm is there in a Bishop asking youth about masturbation in a worthiness interview since it's part of the Law of Chastity?
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Not now the First Presidency have changed their mind and are agreeing with him. Not unless more changes are made and more instructions are given. This change only offered chaperoned interviews as an option if initiated by the interviewee. That's a far cry from what you say above. Now, if other shoes drop and one-on-one interviews are abolished, then you can say that they changed their minds and are agreeing with him.
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, gopher said: If the Church decides it's no longer a sin, then of course it won't need to be asked. That's a much more dangerous hypothetical fraught with peril. If the Church decides it's no longer a sin, then the slippery slope crumbles and avalanches. What other deep-seated or long-tenured teaching will suddenly be changed in the future? Can anyone insist with confidence that, say, adultery or homosexual activity will never likewise be decided are no longer sins? Etc. Such a change wouldn't change my own personal beliefs, or my family's. 1
Calm Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, gopher said: What harm is there in a Bishop asking youth about masturbation in a worthiness interview since it's part of the Law of Chastity? That would depend on the youth and what was asked. It is much less likely these days kids won't know at least the basics of what is being talked about at age 12 and older. Parents who are worried about bishops exposing their kids to new ideas about sex, I wonder if they keep careful track of what their kids are watching and reading, sex education at school, what their friends are talking about. (Grooming is a different issue than knowledge) If they do, good for them, I am not hearing much that hints at that level of vigilance for many though. My first exposure to porn was in grade eight, I was putting books into my outdoor locker (Bay Area, no need to wear coats most of the year) and looked down when I stepped on something. It was a very graphic xeroxed page, had some writing on it I suspect advertising something, but I quickly looked away more because it was an extremely ugly portrayal of a person as opposed to porn (I have never been squeamish about nude paintings, etc). She looked like she was in pain to my uneducated eye. Nothing my parents could have done, the Church, or the school could have prevented that encounter through prior knowledge. It was trash that was blowing around, who knows how far or how near it had been dropped. I am not suggesting this means we shouldn't try to have tight controls over exposing our kids to porn as well as sexual discussion. Just saying it is going to happen and highly likely younger than 16. I would be shocked to hear of an 18 year old who hadn't encountered some form of porn, if only hearing how kids their age speak at times...it can get very graphic. So some conversation about it is wise at least so if something comes up that bothers your kids, they know you won't mind them talking to you. I didn't know if my mom would be freaked or indifferent, therefore not about to share stuff with her. Pretty sure Dad would have been indifferent, likely only saying "it's around, don't look close or long when you see it" and I knew that already.. May have told my sister, but she would have been useless if willing to talk with me (we weren't that friendly during teen years for some reason). I am less worried about a bishop mentioning sexual topics if parents have already had the discussion and helped their children know it is okay to say "I am not comfortable about talking about it right now, can I talk to my parent first?" than I am about a kid who would be first hearing the word "masturbation" at age 12 in a bishop's interview as kids need to be prepared when they encounter it so it isn't traumatic...Younger than that, I have a problem with a bishop initiating sexual conversation at all even though I know most schools are having these conversations...but in group settings. I think I might ask the bishop to speak to professionals about age appropriate one on one sexual conversation, etc. for his own safety as well as the kids. My son got to see porn at least by age 13, my daughter 5 since we had to use the Metro in Moscow as we had no car and you had to look up at times to avoid accidents. My son has since told me he was clueless about the sex toys in the kiosks at least. I wonder how Russian LDS parents would view this conversation assuming the porn is still as prevalent there (been over 20 years, so don't really know).
bluebell Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 16 hours ago, rongo said: That's a much more dangerous hypothetical fraught with peril. If the Church decides it's no longer a sin, then the slippery slope crumbles and avalanches. What other deep-seated or long-tenured teaching will suddenly be changed in the future? Can anyone insist with confidence that, say, adultery or homosexual activity will never likewise be decided are no longer sins? Etc. Such a change wouldn't change my own personal beliefs, or my family's. But the church has already changed some teachings so it seems likely that others will continue to change. The priesthood ban ending is the biggest one obviously, and i've heard many many members say the exact same things that i've bolded above only using the end of the priesthood ban as the reason for their questions. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 minute ago, bluebell said: But the church has already changed some teachings so it seems likely that others will continue to change. The priesthood ban ending is the biggest one obviously, and i've heard many many members say the exact same things that i've bolded above only using the end of the priesthood ban as the reason for their questions. I agree. Things always have and always will change. Lets not forget about polygamy. HUGE change centered in sxual morality that impacted all gender relationships in the church afterward. 3
bluebell Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I agree. Things always have and always will change. Lets not forget about polygamy. HUGE change centered in sxual morality that impacted all gender relationships in the church afterward. Exactly. I think it's safe to say that there are some things that will not change-those things that are central to the plan of salvation are probably a safe bet-but we open ourselves up for a faith crisis when don't acknowledge that continued revelation doesn't just mean adding on to the gospel. Sometimes it means taking stuff away too. 2
rongo Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: But the church has already changed some teachings so it seems likely that others will continue to change. The priesthood ban ending is the biggest one obviously, and i've heard many many members say the exact same things that i've bolded above only using the end of the priesthood ban as the reason for their questions. Very true. And the Church has never sufficiently dealt with that, failing to offer any explanation, and attempting to thread the needle with the essay by disavowing past explanations, offering no authoritative explanation, and failing to explain why and how it continues to regard positive mortal conditions as accruing from the pre-existence, but not things like race. Polygamy and priesthood are the two big examples, but I think if we continue to add major examples, it will erode faith and confidence. I think this is especially true in the realm of doctrine on sexuality (e.g., homosexuality, sexual practices including masturbation, etc.). Once the Church plays the "yeah, that was old-fashioned and traditional back then, but we were wrong and it really isn't a sin" card, I think that affects intensity of commitment and morale in a very different way than the priesthood ban and polygamy did. There would be literally no doctrine that could not be "Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia" 'd away by fiat. While change is a part of the Church, there has to be some bedrock doctrines and principles that won't change when society turns on the Church, or we might as well turn off the lights and go home.
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