Once saved always saved?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

We walk by faith, trusting in His promises.

I agree, wondering about his reasoning however, since he appears to be saying those rejected can believe the identical way as those saved.

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

We walk by faith, trusting in His promises.

     Yes by True Faith - pistis = Allegiance, Commitment, Confidence, Devotion, Dedication, Faithfulness, Fidelity, Loyalty, Trust  [Action] to the person and work of Christ Jesus.

The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior

Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

You either believe what the Bible plainly says or you do not.

Seems to me that LDS Christians prefer to ignore certain verses and only focus on those that match LDS theology.

Those that do not support LDS theology require contextual argument to be fully understood. 

Former, we appear to be talking past one another. I understand what you are saying, but you don't address my reply to you other than to repeat yourself.  You are cherry picking - specifically, you hang your hat on specific verses of the Bible while ignoring the context of the verses and, more importantly, you ignore the rest of the Bible and all of the other verses that conflict with your chosen doctrine.  

I don't believe I have ever met many LDS that consciously choose to ignore scripture; to the contrary, LDS value scripture and study the scriptures all the time.  Many of us have spent decades striving to understand what the scriptures say and we have listened and studied the interpretations of other Christians.  For many of us, you sound like a record that is on repeat; in other words, we have heard it before and know the story you are peddling and we know what is true and what is wrong.  

You are not riding some great white horse to the rescue; we have seen it before.  

Lastly, all - as in ALL - scripture needs to be understood in context and in relation to the rest of scripture.  

[SamIam]

13 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The word "renew" in the New Testament has to do with the new, inward man.

Hebrews 6 is saying it is impossible for those who have received the "heavenly gift" (i.e. the gift of eternal life), to re-receive it again.

Because once you receive eternal life, you are born again, have a new life within you, a new Father in Heaven and are known by the Savior in His family.

It is just as impossible to receive eternal life a second time as it would be to crucify Christ on the cross a second time.

 

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

"Incorrect" according to who?  Joseph Smith? LDS theology?

Why not just admit that you do not believe what the Bible plainly says?

That's why you have been given "another testament of Jesus Christ" - you don't believe the one already given. 

FormerLDS, though you have been undermined at every turn, you continue your bold assault. This will most likely be my last time for illustrating your errors in scriptural exegesis.  This time though I will reverse the process.  This will be the equivalent of a shock and awe rock - n- roll Brother Loves traveling salvation show holy convolution of the spirit aflame in glory.  Instead of using scripture as I have hithertofore done, let's look at Christian commentaries to see if we can find anyone, anyone at all that comes to your conclusions. As many have noted already you have a tendency to interpret scripture against what it "plainly says" to a personal bias.  You have given me adequate fodder for my rebuttal in first quote in this post by your definition of Hebrew's 6:6. Your entire explanation is off but to cut down on length I am just going to work with that one and show others of your own Christian forefathers do not even come close to supporting what you think you see in the bible.  As I have analyzed your responses, I have wondered if you were an acolyte of Charles Spurgeon as he quite frequently leans heavy towards the excessive expectations of OSAS. Many do but his material in some cases comes across as does yours where he wrests the scriptures so severely that one wonders if the Queens English was his first language.  However, even his commentaries on Hebrews 6 leave you standing alone under a flickering streetlamp on a cold and dreary eve.   However let's take a look at some of the most notable and a couple less notable commentaries for how other leading Christian thinkers view Hebrews 6:6.  Raise your hands, look to heaven and sway with the band and try to get the tune your Christian brothers are singing loud and clear...

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Adam Clarke Commentary
Hebrews 6 Verse 6

If they shall fall away - Και παραπεσοντας And having fallen away. I can express my own mind on this translation nearly in the words of Dr. Macknight: "The participles φωτισθεντας, who were enlightened, γευσαμενους, have tasted, and γενηθεντας, were made partakers, being aorists, are properly rendered by our translators in the past time; wherefore, παραπεσοντας, being an aorist, ought likewise to have been translated in the past time, Have fallen away. Nevertheless, our translators, following Beza, who without any authority from ancient MSS. has inserted in his version the word si, if, have rendered this clause, If they fall away, that this text might not appear to contradict the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. But as no translator should take upon him to add to or alter the Scriptures, for the sake of any favourite doctrine, I have translated παραπεσοντας in the past time, have fallen away, according to the true import of the word, as standing in connection with the other aorists in the preceding verses."

Dr. Macknight was a Calvinist, and he was a thorough scholar and an honest man; but, professing to give a translation of the epistle, he consulted not his creed but his candour. Had our translators, who were excellent and learned men, leaned less to their own peculiar creed in the present authorized version, the Church of Christ in this country would not have been agitated and torn as it has been with polemical divinity.

It appears from this, whatever sentiment may gain or lose by it, that there is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And were there no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall.

To renew them again unto repentance - As repentance is the first step that a sinner must take in order to return to God, and as sorrow for sin must be useless in itself unless there be a proper sacrificial offering, these having rejected the only available sacrifice, their repentance for sin, had they any, would be nugatory, and their salvation impossible on this simple account; and this is the very reason which the apostle immediately subjoins: -

Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God - They reject him on the ground that he was an impostor, and justly put to death. And thus they are said to crucify him to themselves - to do that in their present apostasy which the Jews did; and they show thereby that, had they been present when he was crucified, they would have joined with his murderers.

And put him to an open shame - Παραδειγματιζοντας· And have made him a public example; or, crucifying unto themselves and making the Son of God a public example. That is, they show openly that they judge Jesus Christ to have been worthy of the death which he suffered, and was justly made a public example by being crucified. This shows that it is final apostasy, by the total rejection of the Gospel, and blasphemy of the Savior of men, that the apostle has in view. See the note on Hebrews 6:4; (note).

For ease of comparison here are your twisting of expectations.  Not even close...

13 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The word "renew" in the New Testament has to do with the new, inward man.

Hebrews 6 is saying it is impossible for those who have received the "heavenly gift" (i.e. the gift of eternal life), to re-receive it again.

Because once you receive eternal life, you are born again, have a new life within you, a new Father in Heaven and are known by the Savior in His family.

It is just as impossible to receive eternal life a second time as it would be to crucify Christ on the cross a second time.

 

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Calvin's Commentary on the Bible
Hebrews 6 Verse 6

6.To renew them again into repentance, etc. Though this seems hard, yet there is no reason to charge God with cruelty when any one suffers only the punishment of his own defection; nor is this inconsistent with other parts of Scripture, where God’s mercy is offered to sinners as soon as they sigh for it, (Ezekiel 18:27 for repentance is required, which he never truly feels who has once wholly fallen away from the Gospel; for such are deprived, as they deserve, of God’s Spirit and given up to a reprobate mind, so that being the slaves of the devil they rush headlong into destruction. Thus it happens that they cease not to add sin to sin, until being wholly hardened they despise God, or like men in despair, express madly their hatred to him. The end of all apostates is, that they are either smitten with stupor, and fear nothing, or curse God their judge, because they cannot escape from him. (99)

In short, the Apostle warns us, that repentance is not at the will of man, but that it is given by God to those only who have not wholly fallen away from the faith. It is a warning very necessary to us, lest by often delaying until tomorrow, we should alienate ourselves more and more from God. The ungodly indeed deceive themselves by such sayings as this, — that it will be sufficient for them to repent of their wicked life at their last breath. But when they come to die, the dire torments of conscience which they suffer, prove to them that the conversion of man is not an ordinary work. As then the Lord promises pardon to none but to those who repent of their iniquity, it is no wonder that they perish who either through despair or contempt, rush on in their obstinacy into destruction. But when any one rises up again after falling, we may hence conclude that he had not been guilty of defection, however grievously he may have sinned.

Crucifying again, etc. He also adds this to defend God’s severity against the calumnies of men; for it would be wholly unbecoming, that God by pardoning apostates should expose his own Son to contempt. They are then wholly unworthy to obtain mercy. But the reason why he says, that Christ would thus be crucified again, is, because we die with him for the very purpose of living afterwards a new life; when therefore any return as it were unto death, they have need of another sacrifice, as we shall find in the tenth chapter. Crucifying for themselves means as far as in them lies. For this would be the case, and Christ would be slandered as it were triumphantly, were it allowed men to return to him after having fallen away and forsaken him.

This is more consistent with the foregoing, for the Apostle speaks of teaching. It is as though he had said “It is impossible for us as teachers;” as they had no commission. To “renew” may be rendered to “restore.” It is only found here, but is used by the Sept. for a verb which means renewing in the sense of restoring. See Psalms 103:5; Lamentations 5:21. Josephus applies it to the renovation or restoration of the temple. The “crucifying” was what they did by falling away; for they thereby professed that he deserved to be crucified as an imposter, and thus counted his blood, as it is said in Hebrews 10:29, “unholy,” as the blood of a malefactor; and they thus also exhibited him as an object of public contempt. — Ed.

 Again, while I fully expect that your manifest blindness will continue to attempt to cover your errant expectations of scripture, It will be interesting to see to what extremes you will go to refute even these who are the great contributors to Christian thought. 

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Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
Hebrews 6 Verse 6

Hebrews 6:6. If they shall fall away,— Two things are here to be observed; First, That the apostle speaks of such as not only fell away or apostatized from the genuine experience of the Christian, but also from the very profession of Christianity. This appears, from what he presently adds, to set forth the aggravation of their guilt,—that they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. It is therefore very unreasonable, for persons to give way to despair themselves, or to drive others to it, by applying this text to other, and even the grossest sins, when it only relates to the case of an absolute and complete apostacy. Secondly, As the same thing is spoken of again, ch. Hebrews 10:26, &c. it cannot be improper to compare the two places together, in order to a complete understanding of the apostle's design; and therefore from the other place we may explain this if: If they shall εκουσιως, WILFULLY fall away. We may observe further, that the word παραπεσοντας here used, not only signifies falling away, but "all sinning;" that is, all departing from the rule which ought to have been followed: and accordingly, the substantive παραπτωμα is commonly used for trespass or lapse. Here it signifies a total falling away from Christ; deserting the brethren, and withdrawing from religion in times of difficulty;—crimes hinted at toward the close of this epistle. To renew them to repentance, means inwardly to convince them again of the truth, and bring them afresh to an inward change and new birth. See Colossians 3:10. The apostle adds, seeing they crucify to themselves, &c. That is, "They treat Christ, as if they thought he deserved the sentence executed upon him; and thus they expose him to an open shame, and act as if they thought he deserved to be treated as he was." It may be inquired, why the apostle speaks so severely of the condition of such apostates. Now the reason of this may be taken, partly from the nature of the evidence which they rejected: the fullest and clearest evidence that God ever designed to give of the truth of Christianity, was the miraculous operations of the Spirit; and when men not only experienced the genuine power of Christianity, but were eye witnesses of the miracles wrought in those primitive times, and were themselves empowered to work them, and yet rejected all this evidence, they could have no further or higher means whereby they should be convinced; so that their case must in that respect be absolutely desperate. And, finally, this may be resolved into the righteous judgment of God against such men, for the heinous aggravated wickedness of which they are guilty. If, where men have not had the advantage of this highest evidence, but barely have rejected the love of the truth which they once enjoyed, God may, in many given cases, justly send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; there certainly must be much stronger reason for such a judicial proceeding of God against those who apostatized in the apostolic age, seeing their sin was so very great: and our author grounds this severe sentence upon the greatness of their sin, because they crucified the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; and in the other place, because they do despight unto the Spirit of grace. See Parkhurst on the word Παραπιπτω . 

Let's move on to Spurgeon.  While he tries hard to circumvent a valid exegesis in his apologetic approach to OSAS he cannot do so sufficient to not properly see what it means to "crucify afresh" and he begrudingly places responsibility where is should be instead of your magnificent wranglings of the verse. 

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Spurgeon’s Verse Expositions of the Bible

Hebrews 6:4-6. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, —

Note that Paul does not say, “If they shall fall;” but, “If they shall fall away,” — if the religion which they have professed shall cease to have any power over them, — then, it shall be impossible —

Hebrews 6:6. To renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If all the processes of grace fail in the case of any professors, what is to be done with them? If the grace of God does not enable them to overcome the world, — if the blood of Christ does not purge them from sin, what more can be done? Upon this supposition, God’s utmost has been tried, and has failed. Mark that Paul does not say that all this could ever happen; but that, if it could, the person concerned would be like apiece of ground which brought forth nothing but thorns and briers.

Again lets put your comments nearby for ease in comparison.  Does this not cause you to want to restate yourself to at least be in proximity of every other commentary on your comments.  You are being indicted by a jury of your peers.

13 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The word "renew" in the New Testament has to do with the new, inward man.

Hebrews 6 is saying it is impossible for those who have received the "heavenly gift" (i.e. the gift of eternal life), to re-receive it again.

Because once you receive eternal life, you are born again, have a new life within you, a new Father in Heaven and are known by the Savior in His family.

It is just as impossible to receive eternal life a second time as it would be to crucify Christ on the cross a second time.

 

Quote

Geneva Study Bible
Hebrews 6 Verse 6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they ^d crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

(d) As men that hate Christ, and as though they crucified him again, making a mockery of him to all the world, to their own destruction, as Julian the Apostate or backslider did.

 

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Johann Albrecht Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament
Hebrews 6 Verse 6

Hebrews 6:6. καὶ παραπεσόντας, and who have fallen away) A word of weighty import, suddenly occurring, strikes us with just terror. It is thus the LXX. translate the Hebrew מעל. He does not merely speak of those relapsing into their former condition, but of those falling away (præterlapsos, lapsing aside) from that entire state of highest glory, and at the same time from faith, hope, and love, into a new species of ruin, Hebrews 6:10, etc.; and that, too, of their own accord; ch. Hebrews 10:26. A fall such as this may be separated from the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but yet the bitter state of their soul is nearly the same; comp. ch. Hebrews 10:29, note. The apostle does not say, that they to whom he is writing are such as these, but he hints that they may become so. The egg which held and lost the stamina of the chicken is not even fit to be eaten: the man who has lost his faith is in a more deplorable condition than he who never believed.— πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν, to form anew [renew] again) A renewal (a forming anew) had been already made; therefore πάλιν, again, is added, and it corresponds to the ἅπαξ, once, Hebrews 6:4. But we must particularly observe, that ἀνακαινίζειν, to make anew or renew, is used in the active voice; it is impossible for men, not for GOD. Therefore the apostle undertook the doing of this which he is doing, on this very condition, if GOD permit; Hebrews 6:3, note; Matthew 19:26. [There is a similar admonition, Hebrews 10:26.—V. g.] Men, ministers, have already done for such persons what they could; Titus 3:11. Ministers have a certain measure, and those obstinate persons have gone beyond it in their opposition: it remains for ministers to leave them to GOD, and (whether they in the meantime admonish them more or less, and entertain hopes concerning them) to wait what GOD will give, 2 Timothy 2:25, by means of special afflictions and operations. The Græco-Latin copy, Claromontanus, has in this place ἀδύνατον, ‘difficile.’⁽⁴⁰⁾— εἰς ΄ετανοίαν, unto repentance) He appropriately mentions that, which is first in the foundation, Hebrews 6:1. But the other things are left to be supplied, considered either by themselves or in their effect.— ἀνασταυροῦντας, since they crucify afresh) He has described the subject by former participles: he now subjoins the reason (Ætiology, Append.) of that impossibility. The preposition in ἀνασταυροῦντας signifies upwards in Herodian, but in this passage again, for it is the echo of ἀνὰ in ἀνακαινίζειν. ἑαυτοῖς, to themselves, which is added, makes an antithesis to παραδειγματίζοντας, making an open showing, viz. to others: see σταυρόω with the same case, Galatians 6:14. From which it is manifest, that he is speaking of those who scoff at Christ from hatred and bitterness of spirit, for the sake of indulging their humour (deliberately and intentionally): truly, if these men had it in their power, they would do to Christ what the Jews did under Pontius Pilate. Those who deny the efficacy of the cross of Christ, which has been already endured, or think that He was justly crucified by the Jews, do the same as if they were to say, that He must still be crucified; Romans 10:6-7.

 Written in 1742, it is obvious why it took 20 years to produce his commentary, but we must be grateful to this Lutheran Greek scholar for his careful skewering of those who would exeges with the caution of an ill blown sneeze by his careful analysis of the Greek.     

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Wesley's Explanatory Notes
Hebrews 6 Verse 6
And have fallen away - Here is not a supposition, but a plain relation of fact. The apostle here describes the case of those who have cast away both the power and the form of godliness; who have lost both their faith, hope, and love, Hebrews 6:10 , &c., and that wilfully, Hebrews 10:26 . Of these wilful total apostates he declares, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. (though they were renewed once,) either to the foundation, or anything built thereon. Seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh - They use him with the utmost indignity. And put him to an open shame - Causing his glorious name to be blasphemed.

Can you find boldness sufficient to question Brother John Wesley a giant of Christianity? 

Quote

 

Matthew Poole's English Annotations
on the Holy Bible
Hebrews 6 Verse 6

If they shall fall away; a falling away, or apostatizing, in proportion like Adam, such a paraptwma as his was, Romans 5:15-17, whereby they are totally unchristianed, as he was turned into a sinner; perfidiously revolting from all those supernatural workings of the Holy Ghost, whereby their natural spirit was elevated, but not changed, unto their old swinish and canine temper of spirit and course of life that they led before they professed themselves Christians, as 2 Peter 2:18-22. They freely forsake their professed Christian state, and make shipwreck of all; Jude 1:4,10,16,18,19. Whether palin, again, ought to be referred to falling away, so as to denominate the apostate no Christian, as he was at first, before his profession, or to renewing following, it makes no difficulty, for it is a real truth in both parts; only interpreters generally refer it to the latter, as do ours, and so we shall consider it.

To renew them again unto repentance; they cannot renew and bring themselves to the same state they enjoyed, and from which they fell; nor can the Christian ministry do it by their exhortations or counsels, thunders or comforts; the offended, wronged Spirit withdraws, and will not assist or elevate theirs to act above nature again, Genesis 6:3 Isaiah 63:10; but leaves them justly to themselves, so as he will neither by himself, nor by others, suffer it to be done having limited his power by his will in it. They shall neither have a new principle infused into them, nor their minds or hearts changed by him to repentance, because they have undervalued his lower operations and motions on their souls, revealing Christ to them through the gospel, and have by their sinful negligence not improved them to seek from him the better and higher ones which he mentions, Hebrews 6:9,10, and were to be effected by the exceeding greatness of his power.

Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh: that which renders this renovation of them impossible, is their ill treatment, by their apostacy, of their Redeemer, who was to bring them as children to glory, which they by the gospel knew, and by profession owned him ascended and sat down on the right hand of God, and who had, by the operation of his Spirit, elevated their natural principles so to discern him, and to confess him: by this their apostacy they look on him as an impostor and deceiver, as 2 Peter 2:1 Jude 1:4, and deny him to be a Saviour to them, rejecting his sacrifice, and would, as much as in them lieth, dethrone him, and, if he were within their reach, would crucify him again, and tread him under their feet, as Hebrews 10:29, and actually do it to him in his members; as the apostate Julian did in former ages, and the papists do at this day.

And put him to an open shame; paradeigmatizontav, making him a public shameful example, as the Jews did by the most cruel and ignominious death, with all their reproachful carriages to him then, which he despised, Hebrews 12:2, and in which his are to imitate him, Hebrews 13:13: so do these apostates verbally and practically blaspheme and disgrace him; in their esteem vilifying him, and by their apostacy put him to an open and public ignominy, and make him a spectacle of the vilest reproach, as if they could find no good in him, and therefore renounced him; and this to the condemning and destroying of themselves, since they cannot repent, Christ having not purchased it for, nor God promised it to, any such: so as by the law of his kingdom their sin is irremissible, the blood of Christ, that could only remove it, being profaned and trampled on by it, and so their final destruction unavoidable.

 

Wow, are you feeling it? Are you a converted Christian yet?

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Gary Hampton Commentary on Selected Books
Hebrews 6 Verses 4-6

Some Impossible To Renew

One might ask why it is important to go on to perfection. The writer answered in a very forceful way. He said it was impossible to bring those who had fallen away back to repentance. This was especially true for those who had seen the light Christ gives the world. They would have already enjoyed the new life in Christ. They would have already been a part of the promise of the Holy Spirit. The joys of God"s good news would have been theirs. The power of the truth to set a man free from sin and, therefore, make him a part of the glorious experience of heaven would already have been tasted by such enlightened ones.

When such have fallen away, it is impossible to bring them back to a repentance from the works which lead to death. Such impossibility comes from their turning against Christ after having known Him and all the joys already listed. The attitude they display shows the impossibility. They so reject Christ that they would crucify Him again, if they could. They put their Savior to an open shame by returning to sin. One who does not grow spiritually runs the risk of becoming an apostate from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6).

 

And finally in simple direct fashion clearly put is the obvious explanation that should be associated with the Hebrew's verses's we are exemplifying here.  I have quoted many sources to illustrate and overwhelm digression and illustrate you are not even close in your wresting of verses. These are illustrating "what the scripture plainly says."This is no LDS rebuttal to your comments, these are the words of your Christian peers.  While we may have no sway upon your interpretations for your need to reject any LDS voice on the face of it's origin from an LDS source, will you at least acquiesce and be taught by your friends?...friend.  

...It's love, Brother Love say
Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show
Pack up the babies
And grab the old ladies
And everyone goes
'Cause everyone knows
'Bout Brother Love's show

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by SamIam
Gotta shout the Chorus to stir up the righteous.

[Calm]

Points for the song...

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I agree, wondering about his reasoning however, since he appears to be saying those rejected can believe the identical way as those saved.

I’m not sure how that works. If someone who thought he was saved really wasn’t, how can anyone have that confidence?

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, SamIam said:

 

FormerLDS, though you have been undermined at every turn, you continue your bold assault. This will most likely be my last time for illustrating your errors in scriptural exegesis.  This time though I will reverse the process.  This will be the equivalent of a shock and awe rock - n- roll Brother Loves traveling salvation show holy convolution of the spirit aflame in glory.  Instead of using scripture as I have hithertofore done, let's look at Christian commentaries to see if we can find anyone, anyone at all that comes to your conclusions. As many have noted already you have a tendency to interpret scripture against what it "plainly says" to a personal bias.  You have given me adequate fodder for my rebuttal in first quote in this post by your definition of Hebrew's 6:6. Your entire explanation is off but to cut down on length I am just going to work with that one and show others of your own Christian forefathers do not even come close to supporting what you think you see in the bible.  As I have analyzed your responses, I have wondered if you were an acolyte of Charles Spurgeon as he quite frequently leans heavy towards the excessive expectations of OSAS. Many do but his material in some cases comes across as does yours where he wrests the scriptures so severely that one wonders if the Queens English was his first language.  However, even his commentaries on Hebrews 6 leave you standing alone under a flickering streetlamp on a cold and dreary eve.   However let's take a look at some of the most notable and a couple less notable commentaries for how other leading Christian thinkers view Hebrews 6:6.  Raise your hands, look to heaven and sway with the band and try to get the tune your Christian brothers are singing loud and clear...

For ease of comparison here are your twisting of expectations.  Not even close...

 

 Again, while I fully expect that your manifest blindness will continue to attempt to cover your errant expectations of scripture, It will be interesting to see to what extremes you will go to refute even these who are the great contributors to Christian thought. 

Let's move on to Spurgeon.  While he tries hard to circumvent a valid exegesis in his apologetic approach to OSAS he cannot do so sufficient to not properly see what it means to "crucify afresh" and he begrudingly places responsibility where is should be instead of your magnificent wranglings of the verse. 

Again lets put your comments nearby for ease in comparison.  Does this not cause you to want to restate yourself to at least be in proximity of every other commentary on your comments.  You are being indicted by a jury of your peers.

 

 

 Written in 1742, it is obvious why it took 20 years to produce his commentary, but we must be grateful to this Lutheran Greek scholar for his careful skewering of those who would exeges with the caution of an ill blown sneeze by his careful analysis of the Greek.     

Can you find boldness sufficient to question Brother John Wesley a giant of Christianity? 

Wow, are you feeling it? Are you a converted Christian yet?

And finally in simple direct fashion clearly put is the obvious explanation that should be associated with the Hebrew's verses's we are exemplifying here.  I have quoted many sources to illustrate and overwhelm digression and illustrate you are not even close in your wresting of verses. These are illustrating "what the scripture plainly says."This is no LDS rebuttal to your comments, these are the words of your Christian peers.  While we may have no sway upon your interpretations for your need to reject any LDS voice on the face of it's origin from an LDS source, will you at least acquiesce and be taught by your friends?...friend.  

...It's love, Brother Love say
Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show
Pack up the babies
And grab the old ladies
And everyone goes
'Cause everyone knows
'Bout Brother Love's show

 

 

Thank you for that thorough exposition, SamLam.  It makes me want to be a better person.  It inspires me, more than ever, to cling to Christ and His teachings, to obey them in thought, word and deed.  Not out of fear, but of love for the Commandments and the joy, faith and power that comes from keeping them.  I appreciated your interesting quotations from the Christian fathers.  

Anakin7 has also given us several beautiful non-LDS references throughout this thread that clearly teach the doctrine of remaining true and faithful and enduring to the end.  I felt a great blessing of wisdom and knowledge from his non-LDS sources.  I loved the sense of Christian fellowship, even though listening to a podcast.  Christian fellowship should extend beyond boundaries of our religions, no matter who we are talking to.  We are all brothers and sisters with the same need to connect with God and each other.  Wherever there is truth-- and there is much out there in other faith traditions, I want to embrace it as my own.  Thats how I feel anyway.

Thanks!

Meerkat

Edited February 27, 2018 by Meerkat

[FormerLDS]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Where, when, and how does the Savior show the money?

Have you seen it?

What does it look like?

Again, all I see are conditional assurances (If I do this, then I get that).  Prove it.  Show me the money.  I will accept the money when I see it.  If you are suggesting that faith is first required, well then, that is a conditional assurance isn't it? 

The only requirement is belief in the words of Jesus Christ.

Eternal life is as conditional as physical life (if you're breathing, then you're alive, etc).

If you were given the challenge of describing the beauty of a sunset to a man who has never seen before, how would you do it?  What terms would you use that he would understand and believe what you're saying ("prove it")?

Likewise, there is no way to "show you the money".  

The only requirement is belief in the words of Jesus Christ friends.

[FormerLDS]

15 hours ago, Meerkat said:

The risk I see for the Once Saved Always Saved crowd is that a person may commit adultery or theft or commit fraud, unrepentant, and believe they are saved and not be. Wheras someone who believes in faith AND works will live a virtuous, repentant life and avoid sin to the best of their ability, and be saved by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, just as they expect.

Who, in this example, would be Satan's minister?  And who would be a minister of righteousness-- the one who says "Believe in Jesus Christ and don't worry about a thing, as long as you believe," or the one who says "Believe in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized.  Go thy way and sin no more?"  

Who are Satan's ministers?

Easy, those who do not have eternal life.  Outwardly, the Bible tells us they appear to be "ministers of righteousness".

Now tell me, what works would you say that someone who appears to be a "minister of righteousness" would be doing?

Don't you think they would appear righteous?  

Seems to me, they would do exactly as you describe: "believes in faith AND works will live a virtuous, repentant life and avoid sin to the best of their ability, and be saved by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ".

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 did everything in the name of Jesus Christ.

They did greater works that any Mormon who ever lived.  Yet they missed something vital because they did not receive eternal life - the will of the Father.

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The only requirement is belief in the words of Jesus Christ.

Eternal life is as conditional as physical life (if you're breathing, then you're alive, etc).

If you were given the challenge of describing the beauty of a sunset to a man who has never seen before, how would you do it?  What terms would you use that he would understand and believe what you're saying ("prove it")?

Likewise, there is no way to "show you the money".  

The only requirement is belief in the words of Jesus Christ friends.

Well that is interesting how things are unfolding.  It appears you are offering me nothing more than an "assurance".  I am disappointed, I thought there was a million dollar stack of cash that I could examine.  

Remember when you said this:

Quote

Honesty challenge: If someone offered you a lottery ticket with only the "assurance" that it was worth a million dollars or if they offered you a million dollar stack of cash, which one would you take?  

If you can't show me the money, but can only offer me an assurance that it is real, the invisible million dollar stack of cash offer is becoming increasingly less appealing!  I think I am leaning more toward the lottery ticket now - at least the lottery ticket is tangible.  I can examine it and handle it before believing.  I can feel its seed swell in my breast, grow, and bring forth good fruit.

You don't have to describe the money.  Just tell me how you know that you have it.  How do you know that you are holding the million dollars in your hands?  Can you see it, feel it, taste it, touch it?  Or, are you simply relying on the "assurance" of the Bible without actually experiencing it for yourself?  Have you actually seen the million dollars or are you simply trusting that it is in your invisible bank account?

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Some seed brings forth life and some seed does not.

What does the scripture plainly say?

The seed is the Word of God.  When the Word of God enters the heart of a man and is made alive, Satan can no longer take that away. 

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9

There are those who have eternal life within them and there are those who do not because Satan has taken the seed away.

Those who have eternal life are born of God.  They have His sinless perfection within them because in Him is no sin.

Do you not see and hear?

The parable of the sower teaches that the seed can wither and die after growing for a while, not because the seed wasn't good but because the soil wasn't what it needed to be to sustain it.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The only requirement is belief in the words of Jesus Christ friends.

Then why do you reject the words of Jesus Christ?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 did everything in the name of Jesus Christ.

They did greater works that any Mormon who ever lived.  Yet they missed something vital because they did not receive eternal life - the will of the Father.

Yet Matthew 7:21-23 doesn't specify what the will of the Father is.  

However those verses do refer directly to the verses previous which are a discussion on works.  And Christ in Matthew 7 is extolling the necessity of doing good works.
Christ gives a whole bunch of commanded works in Matthew 7 and then in John 14 states that those who keep his commandments are the ones he and the Father will love.

Belief in the words of Jesus Christ is a requirement.  All of them, taken in context and not used in isolation to mean something different than intended.

[FormerLDS]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

But are you not saying there are those who think they see and hear, yet do not?  

How can one truly tell if one is one of the rejected?  Surely it would be important in order to know one needs to truly seek out God?

Or does it not matter at all because God saves who he wants and rejects everyone else, so what the individual desires is meaningless?

Great question with a very easy answer.

Do you have eternal life?  Yes or no.

There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not.

Those who have the Son have eternal life, those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life.  They shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon them (John 3:36).

[FormerLDS]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

And how does one know one has received the real thing...or at least the false bread?

Did your savior give you eternal life...or did he only give you the "assurance" or a maybe one day "promise" of eternal life?

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, FormerLDS said:

Did your savior give you eternal life...or did he only give you the "assurance" or a maybe one day "promise" of eternal life?

He gave us all eternal life.  Scripture says none are lost except perdition.  So all us Mormons will be saved by Christ's sacrifice and receive eternal life the same as everyone else.

[FormerLDS]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There you go again, ignoring the Bible in favor of a misinterpretation of a single verse.
"He cannot sin" is not a statement of inability to act, but of a character that would not choose to remain in sin.

Interestingly, because I believe "he cannot sin" means "he cannot sin", I'm guilty of misinterpreting the scripture...

I guess I'm just guilty of believing what the Bible plainly says.

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I guess I'm just guilty of believing what the Bible plainly says.

Are you just smarter than everyone else or something?  Better reading comprehension?  

Is that how this works?  Those who are the smartest and have the best reading comprehension are saved?  Because the Bible plainly says something else to me.  Why is your perspective better then mine?  Do we need to compare IQ's?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, FormerLDS said:

Interestingly, because I believe "he cannot sin" means "he cannot sin", I'm guilty of misinterpreting the scripture...

I guess I'm just guilty of believing what the Bible plainly says.

No, you are guilty of picking and choosing the bits of the Bible you like.

What does the Bible plainly say? https://C***.org/can-true-christian-sin
 

[FormerLDS]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Quote

There are those who know the way of truth and righteousness but have chosen not to believe the truth just like Balaam and the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2 knew the way of righteousness but chose not to believe.

These never received eternal life in the first place, hence they are referred to as dogs and pigs, both unclean animals of reproach and filth.

The whited sepulchers were the scribes and Pharisees who contended against Him, not disciples who had fallen away.

Quote

Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

To "fall away" does not mean "to lose eternal life".

The word "renew" in the New Testament refers to the new, inner man being made alive - resurrected from death to life.

Once this process happens, it is impossible for that process happen a second time.

Read the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 and Luke 8.  Once spouted, the seed that received life never died, nor did Satan have power to take that life away. 

Again, I never said those who fall away after being saved were never really saved in the first place.

[Anakin7]

       From my LDS Sentinel Son of Thunder Archives - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm , http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm also see/read that Former LDS has not read or completely ignored JLHPROF's  previous references that answer and respond to him.  

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Former, we appear to be talking past one another. I understand what you are saying, but you don't address my reply to you other than to repeat yourself.  You are cherry picking - specifically, you hang your hat on specific verses of the Bible while ignoring the context of the verses and, more importantly, you ignore the rest of the Bible and all of the other verses that conflict with your chosen doctrine.  

I don't believe I have ever met many LDS that consciously choose to ignore scripture; to the contrary, LDS value scripture and study the scriptures all the time.  Many of us have spent decades striving to understand what the scriptures say and we have listened and studied the interpretations of other Christians.  For many of us, you sound like a record that is on repeat; in other words, we have heard it before and know the story you are peddling and we know what is true and what is wrong.  

You are not riding some great white horse to the rescue; we have seen it before.  

Lastly, all - as in ALL - scripture needs to be understood in context and in relation to the rest of scripture.  

Let me guess, any doctrinal points of view that disagree with LDS theology require additional "context" in order to fully comprehend the "true meaning" right?

[pogi]

1 minute ago, FormerLDS said:

Let me guess, any doctrinal points of view that disagree with LDS theology require additional "context" in order to fully comprehend the "true meaning" right?

Let me guess, it is the same for you too. 

[Anakin7]

  Former, A Christian's Future Sins Are Not Automatically Forgiven - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine 

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

          Scripture on Eternal Life that we LDS Embrace in the Bible but FormerLDS seems to not - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternallife.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7 LDS, Sentine,l Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7

[Storm Rider]

38 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Let me guess, any doctrinal points of view that disagree with LDS theology require additional "context" in order to fully comprehend the "true meaning" right?

FormerLDS, I am getting the distinct impression that you are a troll. You ignore all comments and replies to your diatribe and then repeat yourself.  Please go back and read my comments.  The standard for Biblical interpretation is the same for all people and I have not once suggested that anyone should be treated differently.  

So, to answer you silly question - 1) Doctrinal points - whose doctrinal points are you talking about?  2)  Does a single verse or a single statement of belief need additional "context" (I added th quotes to make you feel better, but don't understand why it is of benefit here....unless you are suggesting that you don't need any context for the multitude of errors you have made in biblical interpretation) - Just my opinion only, there are few areas of scripture that stand alone and that there is not a related context to the verse and/or chapter in which it is mentioned. I am not one that believes that the current presentation of chapters and verses is God-given, but history demonstrates it is simply designed by humans. 

Now, what appears to be happening at present is you bit off way more than you can chew.  No worries; it means you are human like the rest of us.  However, you should learn from the experience - you are not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination.  It would be of great service if you took a moment to let that sink it, be a little bit more humble about your abilities and move on.  Share your beliefs, but never try to dictate what the Bible does and does not mean to those who are just as studied, if not more so, than you.  

I appreciate your enthusiasm for your new religious beliefs. Great; good on ya.  However, for me it does not work. I find it full of trite phrases that sound good, but there are just too many holes in it to make sense.  All that means is that we disagree - nothing more.  

God bless you on your continued journey.