Meerkat Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Not trying to ignore you or be rude, but it would take me a year to read all of that. Nothing personal, but I just rarely click on links people send me all of the time. More interested in discussion of thoughts and opinions... And you rarely read what they write, apparently. If you do, you do not refute them.
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Which does not refute the scriptures already cited that warn against fallong away. You said that those who fall away after being saved were not really saved in the first place. We cannot know what is in another person’s heart. How can you know they were not saved? They were. Because they fell away? That’s the Get Out of Jail Free card. There’s the other proverb that says if you call the tail of a dog a leg, the dog does not now have five legs. Calling the tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. I never said there are those who fall away after being saved were never really saved in the first place. Satan's ministers appear to be ministers of righteousness. The Savior told us there are they who appear "like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, bluebell said: You would also need to address all the scriptures that say we can sin again after we are saved. Absolutely!
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, bluebell said: It also ignores the giant elephant in the room, i.e. they believed they were saved. Those who do not have eternal life truly believe they will one day obtain eternal life for their efforts during mortality. The rejected of the savior were shocked to hear their works were actually works of iniquity. They asked the Savior "when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Clearly, they thought they would be good enough to make it.
Calm Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Those who do not have eternal life truly believe they will one day obtain eternal life for their efforts during mortality. The rejected of the savior were shocked to hear their works were actually works of iniquity. They asked the Savior "when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Clearly, they thought they would be good enough to make it. So how can anyone but God tell the difference? How can you know of a certainty that you are not one who truly believes, but is actually rejected? Edited February 26, 2018 by Calm 4
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: This is typical cherry picking. You focus only on a few verses and ignore context and the rest of scripture. It allows anyone to make the Bible say anything that is desired. Yet, it does almost nothing to impart an understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You either believe what the Bible plainly says or you do not. Seems to me that LDS Christians prefer to ignore certain verses and only focus on those that match LDS theology. Those that do not support LDS theology require contextual argument to be fully understood.
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You've already attempted that (http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70209-once-saved-always-saved/?do=reportComment&comment=1209797110) And your reading of that scripture in John is incorrect. Bluebell said it best below: 2 hours ago, bluebell said: You would also need to address all the scriptures that say we can sin again after we are saved. But you won't play that game, choosing instead to prooftext one verse with an incorrect reading. "Incorrect" according to who? Joseph Smith? LDS theology? Why not just admit that you do not believe what the Bible plainly says? That's why you have been given "another testament of Jesus Christ" - you don't believe the one already given.
bluebell Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Absolutely! I think it would be great if you did that. You haven't done it yet in this thread, so my confidence is not high. Should you attempt to do so though, you have to understand that your interpretation of scripture is not going to persuade anyone. 2
bluebell Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Those who do not have eternal life truly believe they will one day obtain eternal life for their efforts during mortality. The rejected of the savior were shocked to hear their works were actually works of iniquity. They asked the Savior "when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Clearly, they thought they would be good enough to make it. Clearly, under your theology though, no one can claim they are saved because no one actually knows whether they are or they aren't. 3
JLHPROF Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Why not just admit that you do not believe what the Bible plainly says? That's why you have been given "another testament of Jesus Christ" - you don't believe the one already given. Pot meet kettle. You have been given numerous biblical statements where those who are saved can fall. You are ignoring them all to focus on one verse that you are interpreting incorrectly. Peter is speaking to those who have been "given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness", those from your John scripture. And he warns them "if ye do these things, ye shall never fall". Clearly then if they don't they can fall. And that's just one. Scripture warns the "saved" who hath eternal life that they can fall all throughout it. But you choose to ignore that. It seems you don't believe the Bible. Edited February 26, 2018 by JLHPROF 3
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Meerkat said: Hi FormerLDS-- I believe these scriptures are some that refute the idea of OSAS: Luke 8 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. FormerLDS, does RECEIVING the word with joy constitute being saved, in your opinion? Using Jesus Christ's example here, if you came to a plant that had sprung up on a rock, but had eithered and died, would you be able to say "It never had life in it?" What does the scripture say friends? There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life. There are those who see, but will not see the truth and hear, but chose not to understand (v10). 2 hours ago, Meerkat said: Or Jude 3 and 4 "3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Paul talking about wolves entering the flock and saying "You are 'Saved.' Don 't worry about commiting adultery or any other sin. As long as you believe, you can do whatever you want to do and God will forgive, whether you repent or not. That's because you Believed, and you are 'Saved.' Believing is the important thing, NOT a change in behavior." Satan's ministers are "ministers of righteousness". Would you say "commiting adultery or any other sin" is something a "minister of righteousness" would do? They "crept in unaware" because they did NOT do those things outwardly. They cared for the sick. Gave money to the poor. They abstained from evil. They cast out devils, prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ. They carried their bibles and went to church faithfully. They loved the savior outwardly, but denied Him inwardly. They preached a false gospel. They did not have eternal life within them.
pogi Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 Where is the money? All I see is assurances. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 27 minutes ago, bluebell said: I think it would be great if you did that. You haven't done it yet in this thread, so my confidence is not high. Should you attempt to do so though, you have to understand that your interpretation of scripture is not going to persuade anyone. Some seed brings forth life and some seed does not. What does the scripture plainly say? The seed is the Word of God. When the Word of God enters the heart of a man and is made alive, Satan can no longer take that away. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 There are those who have eternal life within them and there are those who do not because Satan has taken the seed away. Those who have eternal life are born of God. They have His sinless perfection within them because in Him is no sin. Do you not see and hear?
FormerLDS Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, pogi said: Where is the money? All I see is assurances The Savior can give you so much more than just an assurance. He offers you today that which you hunger and thirst the living water and true bread from heaven. Satan offers "assurance". Satan is full of promises! Only Jesus Christ GIVES eternal life today.
pogi Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: The Savior can give you so much more than just an assurance. He offers you today that which you hunger and thirst the living water and true bread from heaven. Satan offers "assurance". Satan is full of promises! Only Jesus Christ GIVES eternal life today. Where, when, and how does the Savior show the money? Have you seen it? What does it look like? Again, all I see are conditional assurances (If I do this, then I get that). Prove it. Show me the money. I will accept the money when I see it. If you are suggesting that faith is first required, well then, that is a conditional assurance isn't it?
Meerkat Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I never said there are those who fall away after being saved were never really saved in the first place. Satan's ministers appear to be ministers of righteousness. The Savior told us there are they who appear "like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." The risk I see for the Once Saved Always Saved crowd is that a person may commit adultery or theft or commit fraud, unrepentant, and believe they are saved and not be. Wheras someone who believes in faith AND works will live a virtuous, repentant life and avoid sin to the best of their ability, and be saved by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, just as they expect. Who, in this example, would be Satan's minister? And who would be a minister of righteousness-- the one who says "Believe in Jesus Christ and don't worry about a thing, as long as you believe," or the one who says "Believe in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. Go thy way and sin no more?" Edited February 26, 2018 by Meerkat 3
Meerkat Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What does the scripture say friends? There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life. There are those who see, but will not see the truth and hear, but chose not to understand (v10). Satan's ministers are "ministers of righteousness". Would you say "commiting adultery or any other sin" is something a "minister of righteousness" would do? They "crept in unaware" because they did NOT do those things outwardly. They cared for the sick. Gave money to the poor. They abstained from evil. They cast out devils, prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ. They carried their bibles and went to church faithfully. They loved the savior outwardly, but denied Him inwardly. They preached a false gospel. They did not have eternal life within them. And YOU are the judge? You know them, their inward thoughts, how they deny Him within? Be careful friend. You are treading close to the risk of being judged with the same judgment as others with mote/beamitis. Edited February 26, 2018 by Meerkat 2
Calm Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Some seed brings forth life and some seed does not. What does the scripture plainly say? The seed is the Word of God. When the Word of God enters the heart of a man and is made alive, Satan can no longer take that away. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 There are those who have eternal life within them and there are those who do not because Satan has taken the seed away. Those who have eternal life are born of God. They have His sinless perfection within them because in Him is no sin. Do you not see and hear? But are you not saying there are those who think they see and hear, yet do not? How can one truly tell if one is one of the rejected? Surely it would be important in order to know one needs to truly seek out God? Or does it not matter at all because God saves who he wants and rejects everyone else, so what the individual desires is meaningless? Edited February 26, 2018 by Calm 2
Calm Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 44 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The Savior can give you so much more than just an assurance. He offers you today that which you hunger and thirst the living water and true bread from heaven. Satan offers "assurance". Satan is full of promises! Only Jesus Christ GIVES eternal life today. And how does one know one has received the real thing...or at least the false bread? 3
Okrahomer Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 25 minutes ago, Meerkat said: The risk I see for the Once Saved Always Saved crowd is that a person may commit adultery or theft or commit fraud, unrepentant, and believe they are saved and not be. Wheras someone who believes in faith AND works will live a virtuous, repentant life and avoid sin to the best of their ability, and be saved by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, just as they expect. Indeed, it takes little effort to find real life examples of just how this pernicious and false doctrine has supported and enabled such bad behavior. The Colorado Planned Parenthood killer is but one of these: “He says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases." 1
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Some seed brings forth life and some seed does not. What does the scripture plainly say? The seed is the Word of God. When the Word of God enters the heart of a man and is made alive, Satan can no longer take that away. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 There are those who have eternal life within them and there are those who do not because Satan has taken the seed away. Those who have eternal life are born of God. They have His sinless perfection within them because in Him is no sin. Do you not see and hear? There you go again, ignoring the Bible in favor of a misinterpretation of a single verse. "He cannot sin" is not a statement of inability to act, but of a character that would not choose to remain in sin. And don't worry, you don't have to take Mormon teachings for it. Maybe this will make it easier for you - https://C***.org/can-true-christian-sin Or this - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-john-3-9.html Or this - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_john/3-9.htm Basically, all these Christian scholars agree. But I'm sure you can find others who believe the OSAS teachings, despite the moral issues with such a doctrine. 3
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I never said there are those who fall away after being saved were never really saved in the first place. Satan's ministers appear to be ministers of righteousness. The Savior told us there are they who appear "like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." This is what you said: Quote There are those who know the way of truth and righteousness but have chosen not to believe the truth just like Balaam and the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2 knew the way of righteousness but chose not to believe. These never received eternal life in the first place, hence they are referred to as dogs and pigs, both unclean animals of reproach and filth. The whited sepulchers were the scribes and Pharisees who contended against Him, not disciples who had fallen away. Quote Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Calm said: So how can anyone but God tell the difference? How can you know of a certainty that you are not one who truly believes, but is actually rejected? We walk by faith, trusting in His promises. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: There you go again, ignoring the Bible in favor of a misinterpretation of a single verse. "He cannot sin" is not a statement of inability to act, but of a character that would not choose to remain in sin. And don't worry, you don't have to take Mormon teachings for it. Maybe this will make it easier for you - https://C***.org/can-true-christian-sin Or this - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-john-3-9.html Or this - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_john/3-9.htm Basically, all these Christian scholars agree. But I'm sure you can find others who believe the OSAS teachings, despite the moral issues with such a doctrine. Then there is this interesting NIV translation.... Quote 1John 3:7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. Edited February 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 One of FormerLDS Evangelical Brothers disagrees with him on OSAS - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine Washing My Robe/Garment In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
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