Once saved always saved?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Correct!  The eternal life that Jesus Christ offers means you know Him and He knows you - an utterly irreversible process!

Those who have eternal life are those who did the will of the Father - they believed upon the Son and received His free gift of life within their souls.

Once saved (eternal life received) always saved (eternal life kept forever).

Once someone receives eternal life, that's true, it's irreversible.  But, no one receives eternal life in this life.  They only receive the promise of it if they continue to believe and follow Christ for the remainder of their days.  While mortal, someone can definitely lose their promise of salvation, just like the scriptures say.

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I hear you, but I really don't think you comprehend the fact that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality.

The Jesus Christ of the CoJCoLDS can only offer the promise of eternal life during mortality.  

Read the passage!  "having promise of the life that now is". 

When is "now"?

Fair enough.  As in Adam, all die.  So in Christ shall all be made alive.  Then the judgment.  In the LDS view, most all will go to a kingdom of glory.  Those who have lived for it will live where God lives.  Those who choose not to will end up in a kingdom more to their liking, in my opinion.  Christians who have chosen not to live according to their faith will still dwell in a kingdom of glory probably more glorious than they expect.  So I don't see a problem with your view or mine.  We both get what we deserve and expect.  

Our good neighbor has a different view.  He believes if a good person never confessed Christ as Savior, he will be consigned to hell, as in eternal hell fire.  That is out of character for the God I worship.  How about you? My view is along the lines of this poem:

Abou Ben Adhem

BY LEIGH HUNT

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!) 

Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace, 

And saw, within the moonlight in his room, 

Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom, 

An angel writing in a book of gold:— 

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold, 

And to the presence in the room he said, 

"What writest thou?"—The vision raised its head, 

And with a look made of all sweet accord, 

Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord." 

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so," 

Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low, 

But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then, 

Write me as one that loves his fellow men." 

 

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night 

It came again with a great wakening light, 

And showed the names whom love of God had blest, 

And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest. 

I subscribe to CS Lewis' opinion that good people who follow their conscience (light of Christ) often worship God unaware and will be rewarded accordingly.

You aren't of the mind that, unless a person sees salvation as you do, they are going to hell, are you?  You leave the judging to the Savior, right?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Meerkat

[blueglass]

On 2/15/2018 at 11:34 AM, FormerLDS said:

For anyone willing to see it, the disparity between the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and LDS theology are nothing less than mind-blowing.  I mean, how did I ever miss it for so long? 

For example, compare LDS "Eternal Life" (single most important doctrine in LDS theology) with what Jesus Christ plainly said:

LDS Eternal Life (click for link to citation):

Word of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

Notice any doctrinal disparity?

I recommend Elder Oaks talk on salvation.  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

He explains a few different perspectives.  In the talk he refers to salvation for the here and now.  

"I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

“I want present salvation. … Life is for us, and it is for us to receive it today, and not wait for the Millennium. Let us take a course to be saved today” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 15–16). President David O. McKay spoke of the revealed gospel of Jesus Christ in that same present sense of “salvation here—here and now” (Gospel Ideals [1953], 6).
 

On eternal life a few scriptures clarify, 

Romans 2:7

NIV
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
ESV
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.   
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 

[Anakin7]

14 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If anything this passage supports the fact that when we received the gift of eternal life it abides within us forever (v.27).  Once saved always saved.

He abides within me and I in Him - forever.  This is eternal life.

    FormerLDS  [ From Former Fundamentalist Independent Baptist ] Don't forget or ignore the word "if" in verse 24 which is a conditional word, no once saved always saved.    

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7 

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior

[Anakin7]

14 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If anything this passage supports the fact that when we received the gift of eternal life it abides within us forever (v.27).  Once saved always saved.

He abides within me and I in Him - forever.  This is eternal life.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm        http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/james51920.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/pairsoftruth.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sixtimes.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesus-es.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/anothergospel.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ues.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/question.htm      http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/assure.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreacg.org/workssalvation.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternallife.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/forsake.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/separate.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john637.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wayne.htm 

    A few of the above links may not be currently working but many do. The above list should cover the OSAS issue. Sorry so long and many links I just wanted to cover a # of OSAS Arguments. May True Grace be accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained,received, held on to by True Faith - pistis in greek = allegiance, commitment,confidence, devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus which all of the aforementioned definitions are covenant words. 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[Meerkat]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:03 PM, Meerkat said:

1 John 2:24-26.  "24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
            25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

Per Anakin 7's scripture quotation, IF that which ye have heard remains in you, THEN ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father, having eternal life.

On 2/14/2018 at 1:43 PM, Meerkat said:

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..."

Salvation is conditional and may be lost. 

On 2/15/2018 at 8:34 AM, FormerLDS said:

Word of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

Notice any doctrinal disparity?

Any disparity here is due to presenting this passage alone, without considering the other scriptures, including the Word of Jesus in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

17 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The eternal life that Jesus Christ offers means you know Him and He knows you - an utterly irreversible process!

Except when a person chooses, unrepentant, to return his sins like a dog wallowing in the mire.  An apt metaphor is Lot's wife, turning back to Sodom, having just been led out by the angel.

The only way a person can accept the osas position is to ignore the many significant scriptures against it.

Even so, LDS doctrine allows that such persons, except Perdition, may be redeemed in a kingdom of glory.  So the LDS doctrine of three degrees of glory is the only doctrine that allows for the osas position to have any credence. 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:34 AM, bluebell said:

Once someone receives eternal life, that's true, it's irreversible.  But, no one receives eternal life in this life.  They only receive the promise of it if they continue to believe and follow Christ for the remainder of their days.  While mortal, someone can definitely lose their promise of salvation, just like the scriptures say.

Bluebell, what does Jesus Christ plainly say?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”  John 5:24 

You said yourself (page 2 of this discussion) "The verse is speaking in the present tense, not the past tense."

How can "hath eternal life" be present tense, as you (correctly) state, if, on the other hand, "no one receives eternal life in this life"?

Let's all face reality, the rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 were rejected because they did not have eternal life.  Jesus Christ did not know them.  They did not do the will of the father as plainly stated in John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

[FormerLDS]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:14 AM, Meerkat said:

Fair enough.  As in Adam, all die.  So in Christ shall all be made alive.  Then the judgment.  In the LDS view, most all will go to a kingdom of glory.  Those who have lived for it will live where God lives.  Those who choose not to will end up in a kingdom more to their liking, in my opinion.  Christians who have chosen not to live according to their faith will still dwell in a kingdom of glory probably more glorious than they expect.  So I don't see a problem with your view or mine.  We both get what we deserve and expect.  

Our good neighbor has a different view.  He believes if a good person never confessed Christ as Savior, he will be consigned to hell, as in eternal hell fire.  That is out of character for the God I worship.  How about you? My view is along the lines of this poem:

According to Jesus Christ, there are only two groups of people.  

To try to help illustrate these differences, here is an overview.  Notice "eternal life" is given during mortality:

Overview of LDS "salvation".  Notice "eternal life" is not given during mortality:

 

 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/16/2018 at 12:00 PM, blueglass said:

I recommend Elder Oaks talk on salvation.  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

He explains a few different perspectives.  In the talk he refers to salvation for the here and now.  

"I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

“I want present salvation. … Life is for us, and it is for us to receive it today, and not wait for the Millennium. Let us take a course to be saved today” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 15–16). President David O. McKay spoke of the revealed gospel of Jesus Christ in that same present sense of “salvation here—here and now” (Gospel Ideals [1953], 6).

The issue is with the LDS concept of "salvation".

Please focus on "eternal life".

Elder Oaks words in the article you provided were paraphrased by the First Presidency into the youth study book "True to The Faith":

Compare these words with the words of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

LDS "eternal life" can only be obtained after death, whereas the "Eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers can only be obtained during mortality.

 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/17/2018 at 3:01 AM, Meerkat said:

Except when a person chooses, unrepentant, to return his sins like a dog wallowing in the mire.  An apt metaphor is Lot's wife, turning back to Sodom, having just been led out by the angel.

The only way a person can accept the osas position is to ignore the many significant scriptures against it.

Even so, LDS doctrine allows that such persons, except Perdition, may be redeemed in a kingdom of glory.  So the LDS doctrine of three degrees of glory is the only doctrine that allows for the osas position to have any credence. 

So, let's assume that a person does actually become "saved" using your definition (do all that you can do, repent, baptized, start something, stop something, turn over a new leaf, climb a tree, howl at the moon, bake a cake, etc...)

Does Jesus Christ then know you?

Yes or no?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Bluebell, what does Jesus Christ plainly say?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”  John 5:24 

You said yourself (page 2 of this discussion) "The verse is speaking in the present tense, not the past tense."

How can "hath eternal life" be present tense, as you (correctly) state, if, on the other hand, "no one receives eternal life in this life"?

Let's all face reality, the rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 were rejected because they did not have eternal life.  Jesus Christ did not know them.  They did not do the will of the father as plainly stated in John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I've answered these questions before.  If all you are going to do is repeat your questions without engaging in any answers, this discussion is a waste of time and we should just be done.

[LittleNipper]

A far more important question might be: If someone can lose his salvation, how does one know if one hasn't already lost it?  I believe in once saved always saved. I also believe that one who is saved can reap rewards; however, this isn't one and the same. One must be saved FIRST before one can gain rewards.

But if someone can lose their salvation once they've gained it, how can someone know that they haven't become lost again? I believe that those that place their faith in "feelings" may in fact have a BIG problem; because one doesn't always "feel" saved or happy, or joyous. So in that regard I see salvation as a legal issue. Once the decision is made, one's name is transcribed into the Lamb's Book of Life.

Edited February 20, 2018 by LittleNipper

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

A far more important question might be: If someone can lose his salvation, how does one know if one hasn't already lost it? 

From the LDS perspective, one gains access to the saving grace of Christ by having faith in Christ, repenting of their sins, being baptized, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost.  Once someone has 'entered in at the strait gate' onto the path that leads towards eternal life then they are saved.  To remain saved, all one has to do is stay on that path by continuing to have faith and continuing to repent, and following Christ the rest of their lives.

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

A far more important question might be: If someone can lose his salvation, how does one know if one hasn't already lost it?  I believe in once saved always saved. I also believe that one who is saved can reap rewards; however, this isn't one and the same. One must be saved FIRST before one can gain rewards.

But if someone can lose their salvation once they've gained it, how can someone know that they haven't become lost again? I believe that those that place their faith in "feelings" may in fact have a BIG problem; because one doesn't always "feel" saved or happy, or joyous. So in that regard I see salvation as a legal issue. Once the decision is made, one's name is transcribed into the Lamb's Book of Life.

What if someone believes they are saved, but is not?

[LittleNipper]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

From the LDS perspective, one gains access to the saving grace of Christ by having faith in Christ, repenting of their sins, being baptized, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost.  Once someone has 'entered in at the strait gate' onto the path that leads towards eternal life then they are saved.  To remain saved, all one has to do is stay on that path by continuing to have faith and continuing to repent, and following Christ the rest of their lives.

I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit from above! I'm assuming here that you believe someone must be baptized in water. What kind of water? Warm or cold? Fresh or salt? Spring or chlorinated? Hard or soft water? Will sulfur water work. What about water with algae. Should the person be robed, in a bathing suit , nude or fully clothed? Can a water baptism be a rainstorm, sprinkling, or a full dunk. For how long should the individual be submerged? Under and up or perhaps a count of 10? How do you know you are performing the water baptism perfectly? I mean if water baptism is a must, there must be a special way of performing it --- wouldn't you think? At what age should one be water baptized? 1, 13, 21? What if the person is 100? Can a person be baptized in a wheelchair or on a stretcher? What kind of reservoir should be used? A lake, a stream? A pool? A bathtub? 

AND if a person backslides, does he need to be redunked? See the above --- does anything differ? What I mean , if an individual was baptized originally in a lake and then needed to be baptized again, would a tub sifice?

The reality is that I was immersed in a baptismal in a Baptist sanctuary. I was 24. I made a public profession of faith in Christ when I was 12. I believed the water immersion was an outward sign of an inward change, but was immersed to fulfill the rules for church membership for this Baptist congregation. I might add that they didn't believe water baptism was supernatural in anyway, but illustrated publically death to oneself and risen in the Lord. It also showed humility of the one being so dunked. 

 

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What if someone believes they are saved, but is not?

What did Jesus say to the rabbi  who came to Him one evening?

Thread closed by request.

[Meerkat]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:44 PM, LittleNipper said:

I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit from above! I'm assuming here that you believe someone must be baptized in water. What kind of water? Warm or cold? Fresh or salt? Spring or chlorinated? Hard or soft water? Will sulfur water work. What about water with algae. Should the person be robed, in a bathing suit , nude or fully clothed? Can a water baptism be a rainstorm, sprinkling, or a full dunk. For how long should the individual be submerged? Under and up or perhaps a count of 10? How do you know you are performing the water baptism perfectly? I mean if water baptism is a must, there must be a special way of performing it --- wouldn't you think? At what age should one be water baptized? 1, 13, 21? What if the person is 100? Can a person be baptized in a wheelchair or on a stretcher? What kind of reservoir should be used? A lake, a stream? A pool? A bathtub? 

AND if a person backslides, does he need to be redunked? See the above --- does anything differ? What I mean , if an individual was baptized originally in a lake and then needed to be baptized again, would a tub sifice?

The reality is that I was immersed in a baptismal in a Baptist sanctuary. I was 24. I made a public profession of faith in Christ when I was 12. I believed the water immersion was an outward sign of an inward change, but was immersed to fulfill the rules for church membership for this Baptist congregation. I might add that they didn't believe water baptism was supernatural in anyway, but illustrated publically death to oneself and risen in the Lord. It also showed humility of the one being so dunked. 

I know the Holy Spirit can transform a person's life without baptism. just as you say.  I saw it happen in my own and in the lives of many faithful people that I know.  The Holy Spirit communicated in a very personal way that there is a God in Heaven, He knew me personally and loved me.  And also, that He had done what I had always been taught as a child, took my sins upon Himself and died on a cruel Cross.  You were baptized to fulfill the rules for your Baptist church membership.  LDS are baptized because, just as you pointed out in your first paragraph, there are a hundred different ways a person could be baptized, at the whim of just about anyone who took it upon themselves to do it.  Jesus set the example by seeking out John the Baptist at the River Jordan, who had authority to baptize, and Christ was baptized by immersion in water.  He didn't do it because He needed his sins remitted.  He was baptized as an example to us.  That's why I was baptized as I was, rather than sprinkling, baptized by rain or the other ways you described.

I believe that when Jesus tells us to do something, it is a commandment from Him.  You certainly don't need to believe that unless the Spirit persuades you.  But that's what I believe, and I'll tell you why:  After Jesus rose from the dead and was preparing to ascend into Heaven, one of the last things He did was appear to His disciples to tell them what to do.  This is what He said: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.  Amen." Matt. 28:19-20.

Why would the Lord tell them to teach and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost if it weren't important?  And after telling THEM to baptize, the risen Lord told them to teach US to observe all things whatsoever He had commended them to do.  What did the Savior tell them to do?  "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them."

Little Nipper, I'm not saying you need to believe that.  Your faith and belief is up to you.  I am just giving you a justification for the faith that is within me.  I find another justification in John 3:4-5 where Jesus told Nicodemus "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."  You may reasonably believe the water represents the water in physical birth, and the Spirit represents the Holy Spirit.  My take is that, in conjunction with Matt. 28:19-20 baptism is a commandment from Jesus Christ that I ought to obey.  I am comfortable with that and am not criticizing you for the choice you made.  I see you as a Christian who loves God and your fellow man, and has a desire to bring all people to Christ.  

Edited February 22, 2018 by Meerkat

[Anakin7]

On February 16, 2018 at 10:52 PM, Anakin7 said:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm        http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/james51920.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/pairsoftruth.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sixtimes.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesus-es.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/anothergospel.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ues.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/question.htm      http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/assure.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreacg.org/workssalvation.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternallife.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/forsake.htm 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/separate.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john637.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wayne.htm 

    A few of the above links may not be currently working but many do. The above list should cover the OSAS issue. Sorry so long and many links I just wanted to cover a # of OSAS Arguments. May True Grace be accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained,received, held on to by True Faith - pistis in greek = allegiance, commitment,confidence, devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus which all of the aforementioned definitions are covenant words. 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

   Repost for FormerLDS and Little Nipper, Love you both !.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing my Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[Anakin7]

Baptism as Essential for True Salvation from a non LDS Saint/Christian point of view - http://www.bebaptized.org  Be sure to click the colored highlights on the site to get all of the material therein.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment /Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited February 22, 2018 by Anakin7

[SamIam]

On 2/13/2018 at 7:52 AM, FormerLDS said:

Friends, rely upon the word of Jesus Christ.

Once Jesus Christ knows you, is there anything that you can do that He would not know you?  He never knew the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7.

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”  Matt 7:23

Once born, is there anything one can do from that point forward to be un-born?

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” John 3:7

If Jesus promises us that if we have His gift of Eternal life, we shall NEVER perish and there is NO MAN – even you – that can take that away.

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:28

Jesus Christ promises us that if we chose to believe in Him, we have eternal life and those who do not believe will never see life because they will partake of God’s wrath because they do not have eternal life.  They did not obey the will of the Father and believe in His Son.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”  John 3:36

The question is, will you choose to believe the words of Jesus Christ?

Perhaps if we consider a few examples from the scriptures we can see the correct understandings:

Quote

 

Colossians 2:6-9, 18

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord,  so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

 

 

1.)    Their state: Clearly these have received Jesus Christ. (Verse 6, 10, 12, 13,14)

2.)    The warning: Watch out for the philosophies of men and vanity. (Verse 8,18)

3.)    The risk: They could be deceived and lose their reward. (Verse 8, 18)

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2 Peter 2:1-4, 20-22

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

 

1.)    Their state: Clearly these have received the promise of Jesus Christ. (Verse 13,14,21)

2.)    The warning: Don’t be led away by the examples of the wicked. (Verse 3, 20)

3.)    The risk: They could fall from their steadfastness. (Verse 20)

 

I have several more of these that follow the exact pattern but this should illustrate my point; those recognized as saved, warned of potential risk, which risk is that they might lose their reward.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, SamIam said:

Perhaps if we consider a few examples from the scriptures we can see the correct understandings:

 

1.)    Their state: Clearly these have received Jesus Christ. (Verse 6, 10, 12, 13,14)

2.)    The warning: Watch out for the philosophies of men and vanity. (Verse 8,18)

3.)    The risk: They could be deceived and lose their reward. (Verse 8, 18)

 

1.)    Their state: Clearly these have received the promise of Jesus Christ. (Verse 13,14,21)

2.)    The warning: Don’t be led away by the examples of the wicked. (Verse 3, 20)

3.)    The risk: They could fall from their steadfastness. (Verse 20)

 

I have several more of these that follow the exact pattern but this should illustrate my point; those recognized as saved, warned of potential risk, which risk is that they might lose their reward.

Thank you Samlam.  Faithfully expressed, and straight from the Scriptures.  I particlarly appreciated verse 4.  It makes the point that this life is a time for us to learn how to live virtuously of our own free will, that we may live in a fully virtuous society forever, according to the promise.  Why is repentance important?  That we may turn from sin and learn to live in righteousness.  Jesus helps take our desire to sin away through His infinite sacrifice.  But we need to be steadfast, continually repenting and readjust our course more completely into the narrow path.  Why?  Because we love God, and we love our fellow beings and obedience and faithfulness communicate that love to each other.  That's the way to Live!  The idea that once we accept Christ, we can also, unrepentant, follow the natural man and still be saved in God's kingdom is contradicted by the scriptures you have cited.  Cheap Grace is taking a few scriptures out of context to justifying sin, and communicate the false hope that all Salvation requires is belief, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, SamIam said:

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That is another reason why the Book of Mormon, the Bible and continuing revelation are crucial to our understanding of how to navigate this life.

"20 And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.
            23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.
            24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
            25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen." 2 Nephi 10:20-25.

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, SamIam said:

 

I have several more of these that follow the exact pattern but this should illustrate my point; those recognized as saved, warned of potential risk, which risk is that they might lose their reward.

Friends, does the Bible plainly define "eternal life" is a reward or a gift?

[Teancum]

On 2/12/2018 at 2:21 PM, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  That is the very definition of perdition.

No it is not.

[SamIam]

Quote

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Friends, does the Bible plainly define "eternal life" is a reward or a gift?

For myself, I am cautious about entering a stalemate of semantics and debate.  If we were not talking about this particular subject but were simply looking for scriptures that describe groups that had been saved in Jesus Christ the verses provided would be received readily as wonderful examples of the many ways in which those who are saved might be referenced in scripture...which of course is not a cookie cutter formula always possessing the word "reward".  Nonetheless the Colossians verses above do use the term reward within the context of what they risk losing should they be deceived: 

Please Note:

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Colossians 2:18

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Further once we establish that the Colossians are identified by Paul as those who have "therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord," we can explore other aspects of Paul's conversation with them realizing that they are a people that Paul considered saved: Thus in chapter 3 where we read 

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Colossians 3:24

24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Matching your stipulation of preference for the word "reward" it is here again used as a means of affirming that the Colossians are to receive the "reward" because they "serve the Lord." This is not an ambiguous potential he is describing but a "ye shall" not a "ye might".

Now, here is an example of a set of verses that uses neither the term "reward" or "gift" but it would be very disingenuous of us to wrest the scriptures to any other expectation than that these to whom he speaks are considered saved at this point in time.  Yet it follows the pattern established in multiple places that if one would remain saved they must remain servants of Christ. Please consider:  

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 Hebrews 3:12-14

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

1.)    Their state: They are partakers of the Heavenly calling through Christ (Verse 1,14)

2.)    The caution: Don’t become hardened through sin. (Verse 12,13)

3.)    The risk: “If” qualifies their state as being partakers in Christ IF they are steadfast until the end. (Verse 14)

Again, there are several additional verses in Ephesians, 2 Peter, others in Hebrews, Philippians and so on.  What is a fascinating study is that you can gauge Paul's perceptions of the groups of people he is talking to.  Of these I have used for examples, he seems pleased with their conversion to Jesus Christ and simply provides cautions so that they can maintain their status as servants of the Lord. On the other hand when I read Romans, Paul seems a bit less secure in their state of being and it seems he is still looking for the true signs of conversion so that by comparison one can compare Paul to Paul and determine his state of mind towards those to whom he addresses. Romans, does not speak to me the same as the other examples and thus for me this further substantiates that he considered certain of those he taught as yet to be saved and others as fully such but needing to be watchful to maintain their reward.

Edited February 23, 2018 by SamIam

[Meerkat]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:03 AM, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ said those who have eternal life "shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24).

Do you believe Him or not?

John 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

 

I do believe Him.  I believe your take is a misunderstanding.   Consider what other people are saying on this thread.  Your questions have been clearly answered over and over again.

On 2/13/2018 at 2:07 PM, FormerLDS said:

Nowhere in the scriptures do we see an "unless you quit believing" passage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."  

Those words are unambiguous.  They clearly refute the idea that once saved, always saved.  

On 2/13/2018 at 8:53 AM, smac97 said:

Quote

• SMAC97 ASKED:
• What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? 
• Are they going to be saved anyway? 
• What if they do not want to be saved? 
• Will salvation be given to them against their will?

• TO WHICH FORMER LDS RESPONDED:
• They changed their mind
• Yes
• Too bad
• Yes

Those who feel alien to the company of the righteous would be extremely uncomfortable, if forced to live with them.  That is why free agency is such an important concept.  Perhaps you see Heaven as a kind of prison for them?  Would that be Heaven or Hell for them?  And if it is Hell, how is that being "Saved?"  Hence, the merciful option of multiple kingdoms of glory that allow people to associate with like minded people, whatever their mindset.  That wouldn't be the Celestial Kingdom.  

Here is a description of what the association of the righteous would be like:

15 "And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.

16 And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.

17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God." from 4 Nephi

Anything other than that would be contentious and not suitable for living in the presence of God.  Hence, destined for another kingdom.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Meerkat