Once saved always saved?

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Brother Bear said:

TomAYto, tomAHto. It’s anyone’s guess. How would you propose comparing your “plain” interpretation to what Jesus’ intended meaning? You’re criticizing people for not wearing clothes when you yourself are naked. 

I wish there were a ROFL button here, because if there were one I would be clicking on it for this.

 

[Jeanne]

22 hours ago, Amulek said:

I think it's risible to suggest that, just because somebody doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of scripture, that they do not believe Jesus. 

I believe Jesus when he talks about the promise of eternal life. And I believe Jesus when he says that "anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." (Luke 12:10)

How we go about reconciling all the words of Christ is a matter of interpretation. 

When one of the Bible Study groups I participate in (as the sole Mormon, unsurprisingly) was going through Luke, this was one of the verses that caused a great amount of discussion: can there be an unpardonable sin? If so, then it seems as though it ought to be possible for one to fall from grace. That was when my pastor friend who I mentioned at the beginning of the thread said that even Charles Stanley has backed away from his position on eternal security (i.e., OSAS) being utterly unalterable - which, for those who aren't in the know, is kind of a big deal since he pretty much wrote the book on eternal security (literally). 

So, if there is room enough in the Evangelical community for differing opinions on the matter, I think there ought to be more than enough room for the Mormons as well. Especially since we're right. 

 

 

Your very first sentence really speaks to me...may I thank you?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I wish there were a ROFL button here, because if there were one I would be clicking on it for this.

 

[Meerkat]

On 2/13/2018 at 8:36 AM, FormerLDS said:

Was there a sacrifice made to atone for the sins of the devils?

The sacrifice was made.  The point is, receiving the sacrifice requires more than belief.  It requires a change in behavior.  It requires repentance.  It requires an attempt at obedience.

This is a scripture against the idea "Once saved always saved."  The Bible is full of this doctrine.

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
            29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"  Hebrews 10

Edited February 14, 2018 by Meerkat

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ plainly tells us what the will of the Father is and it's not "Repent and be baptized.  Go thy way, and sin no more.  If ye love me, keep my commandments."

You're kidding right?
We don't need to repent, be baptized, cease sinning, or keep the commandments because there is a higher "will of the Father" for us to follow?

Wow.  I'm sure you have it boiled down to some minimalistic statement, but the Bible alone has the Father giving many commands that could be called his will.
God gave many statements in the Bible that can be called his will.  Christ gave many commands, and since he came to do the Father's will and can do nothing except that which the Father does, we can also know from Christ that the will of the Father includes Christ's commandments.

[Teancum]

On 2/13/2018 at 5:28 PM, bluebell said:

Again, these verses are all in the present tense. Christ says you have to “believeth” (be actively believing) to be saved. 

Some one who used to believe but doesn’t any longer does NOT believeth. 

Yes.  That is why I said Mormon Doctrine rejects eternal security.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Those who have eternal life are not resurrected yet?  

No, those who have been given eternal life will be (or are) resurrected.  Those who have been promised they will inherit eternal life have not been resurrected yet.

Quote

What did Jesus Christ mean when He referred to those who have eternal life as "passed from death unto life" in John 5:24?  Is that not present tense?

He meant that they were spiritually born again, saved from spiritual death.

Quote

In John 6:53 the Savior plainly says if you do not have eternal life have "no life in you".

No it doesn't, it says "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Just like how if you don't eat or drink regular food, you can't physically live.  If you don't partake of the flesh and blood of Christ through the Sacrament you can't spiritually live.

Quote

How do you explain how someone who was dead and is now made alive if not resurrection?"

Resurrection is when a person's body and spirit come back together after death in a perfect form, never to be separated again.  The resurrection is Christ's triumph over physical death.  The verses you have spoken of are talking about spiritually come alive after being spiritually dead.  

Edited February 15, 2018 by bluebell

[Meerkat]

19 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I understand what LDS theology teaches about the matter, but, being a former member, I ask this because I don't want to be accused of telling you what you believe.

There is a significant disparity between what LDS theology says and what Jesus Christ plainly says.

Jesus Christ plainly tells us what the will of the Father is and it's not "Repent and be baptized.  Go thy way, and sin no more.  If ye love me, keep my commandments."

(You don't believe God tells us to do those things?)

If you could kindly tell me what does Jesus Christ Himself tells us that the will of the Father is for those whom he does not already know?  Recall, the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 were rejected because Christ said he did not know them and they did not do His will.

(They were rejected because they did not do His will.)

He plainly tells us His will.  What is it?

Matthew 7, a great chapter.  Jesus plainly teaches many things about God's will.  Here are a few:

Live by the Golden Rule.  Treat others the way you want to be treated.  All the law and the prophets hang on this commandment.  (Chapter 22 goes further by saying that all commandments-- God's will-- are encompassed in these two great ones: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.. [sounds like more than a simple belief,] and love thy neighbor as thyself.)

Don't judge others unless you want to be judged by the same judgment.  Why consider the mote in thy brother's eye, but ignore the beam in thine own?  (Judging others is a risky business.)

If you want to know if a prophet is true, look at the fruits of what they taught.  One way to find out if a prophet is true is to pray.  Knock, and it shall be opened.  Seek and ye shall find.  Ask and it shall be given you.  (Nowhere in Matthew 7 is the implication there are no true prophets.  The Savior clearly tells you how to know a true from a false prophet.  Having lived the life and experienced the fruits thereof, I can tell you Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet today.)

Mere belief will not get a person to Heaven.  Only those who do the will of the Father will be approved.  Christ said "...depart from me, ye that work iniquity..."   (Working iniquity appears to be the determining factor.  Am I missing something here?  Of course, based on other scriptures and personal experience, such condemnation can be overcome by faith in Jesus Christ and the atoning blood of His sacrifice for us, and sincere repentance.)

These are some of the expressions of God's will from Matthew chapter 7. Which one did you have in mind, Former LDS?  I find no disparity here between the LDS doctrine presented in this chapter, and what Jesus plainly taught.  Do you?  Honestly?

Thanks for the reference.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Meerkat

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, that's an emoji, but I was thinking it would be nice to have a ROFL button icon next the Heart button icon in the lower right corner, like this:

 

That way I could rate the post as Very Funny.  

[Meerkat]

22 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ plainly tells us what the will of the Father is and it's not "Repent and be baptized.  Go thy way, and sin no more.  If ye love me, keep my commandments."

He plainly tells us His will.  What is it?

Former LDS, please see my revised post just above Stargazer's comment.  What is your response to the LDS doctrine taught in Matthew chapter 7?

Edited February 15, 2018 by Meerkat

[FormerLDS]

19 hours ago, Brother Bear said:

TomAYto, tomAHto. It’s anyone’s guess. How would you propose comparing your “plain” interpretation to Jesus’ intended meaning? Or how do you propose comparing what’s written in the Bible to anything Jesus actually said? You’re criticizing people for not wearing clothes when you yourself are naked. 

For anyone willing to see it, the disparity between the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and LDS theology are nothing less than mind-blowing.  I mean, how did I ever miss it for so long? 

For example, compare LDS "Eternal Life" (single most important doctrine in LDS theology) with what Jesus Christ plainly said:

LDS Eternal Life (click for link to citation):

Word of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

Notice any doctrinal disparity?

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

For anyone willing to see it, the disparity between the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and LDS theology are nothing less than mind-blowing.  I mean, how did I ever miss it for so long? 

For example, compare LDS "Eternal Life" (single most important doctrine in LDS theology) with what Jesus Christ plainly said:

LDS Eternal Life (click for link to citation):

Word of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

Notice any doctrinal disparity?

Nope.  No disparity.

[FormerLDS]

18 hours ago, Meerkat said:

The sacrifice was made.  The point is, receiving the sacrifice requires more than belief.  It requires a change in behavior.  It requires repentance.  It requires an attempt at obedience.

This is a scripture against the idea "Once saved always saved."  The Bible is full of this doctrine.

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
            29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"  Hebrews 10

Look beyond what you have been taught.  What is truly being said here?

Tell me, specifically what "sins" are not willful?

What did the Savior's "sacrifice for sins" on the cross accomplish for you and me?

I think if you will consider what was actually atoned - and what was not atoned - then you would see what passages like this are actually referring. 

[FormerLDS]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Nope.  No disparity.

Believe me, I do realize it takes courage to see what I'm telling you.  I know how you feel, friends.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

For anyone willing to see it, the disparity between the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and LDS theology are nothing less than mind-blowing.  I mean, how did I ever miss it for so long? 

For example, compare LDS "Eternal Life" (single most important doctrine in LDS theology) with what Jesus Christ plainly said:

LDS Eternal Life (click for link to citation):

Word of Jesus Christ:

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54  

Notice any doctrinal disparity?

Friend, I look forward to being raised at the last day with all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, then the judgment.  I am secure in my salvation because I am repentant and obediant.  We eat the flesh and drink the blood every Sunday, taking into ourselves many of the attributes of Jesus Christ.  I find it interesting that, rather than respond to answers to your questions-- points made from the scriptures that clearly establish the importance of doing God's will in conjunction with our faith, you ignore those points and ask more circular questions about your favorite principle.  

You did not consider or respond to any of the LDS doctrine in Matthew chapter 7 that I addressed in response to your last question.  You didn't even respond with an answer to your own question "What is God's will?" in Matthew Chapter 7, per my request.  I think I'll pass on considering more of your questions.  You are clearly not interested in engaging in a dialogue.

Dialogue: take part in a conversation or discussion to resolve a problem.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Meerkat

[FormerLDS]

16 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Mere belief will not get a person to Heaven.  Only those who do the will of the Father will be approved.  Christ said "...depart from me, ye that work iniquity..."   (Working iniquity appears to be the determining factor.  Am I missing something here?  Of course, based on other scriptures and personal experience, such condemnation can be overcome by faith in Jesus Christ and the atoning blood of His sacrifice for us, and sincere repentance.)

These are some of the expressions of God's will from Matthew chapter 7. Which one did you have in mind, Former LDS?  I find no disparity here between the LDS doctrine presented in this chapter, and what Jesus plainly taught.  Do you?  Honestly?

Yes, as a matter of fact, you are missing something - the other half of the Savior's response.  Jesus Christ told to the rejected "I never knew you."

Wouldn't it make sense to say there are those whom the Savior knows in order for there to be those whom the Savior does not know? 

Therefore, we see two groups of people: those whom the Savior knows and those whom the Savior does not know.  Those whom he does not know are “workers of iniquity” and do not do “the will of my Father”. (Matt 7:21)  

Jesus Christ tells us what the will of the Father is in John 6:40:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Those who “do the will of the father” are those who have eternal life. 

[FormerLDS]

4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Friend, I look forward to being raised at the last day with all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, then the judgment.  I am secure in my salvation because I am repentant and obediant.  We eat the flesh and drink the blood every Sunday, taking into ourselves many of the attributes of Jesus Christ.  I find it interesting that, rather than respond to answers to your questions-- points made from the scriptures that clearly establish the importance of doing God's will in conjunction with our faith, you ignore those points and ask more circular questions about your favorite principle.

For clarity here, we're not talking about obtaining "many of the attributes of Christ".

We're talking about "eternal life".

According to LDS theology, partaking of the sacrament most certainly doesn't give anyone eternal life.   

At the very best, all that the LDS gospel (and savior) can give anyone is a "promise" of eternal life.

My Savior GAVE me eternal life!  Huge difference friends.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

For clarity here, we're not talking about obtaining "many of the attributes of Christ".

We're talking about "eternal life".

According to LDS theology, partaking of the sacrament most certainly doesn't give anyone eternal life.   

At the very best, all that the LDS gospel (and savior) can give anyone is a "promise" of eternal life.

My Savior GAVE me eternal life!  Huge difference friends.

Eternal life is becoming like Christ.

[Anakin7]

Former -  Promise of Eternal Life - 1 John 2:24-26.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior

 

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

  At the very best, all that the LDS gospel (and savior) can give anyone is a "promise" of eternal life.

My Savior GAVE me eternal life!  Huge difference friends.

This is what the Apostle Paul said about the promises of Christ:  Ephesians 3: "3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
            4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
            5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
            6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Or this, from 1 Tim 4 "8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
            9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
            10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
            11 These things command and teach."

I think we are in good company if we believe in the promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ.  

Edited February 16, 2018 by Meerkat

[Meerkat]

59 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

Former -  Promise of Eternal Life - 1 John 2:24-26.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior

 

1 John 2:24-26.  "24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
            25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

Thank you, Anakin 7

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

Eternal life is becoming like Christ.

Correct!  The eternal life that Jesus Christ offers means you know Him and He knows you - an utterly irreversible process!

Those who have eternal life are those who did the will of the Father - they believed upon the Son and received His free gift of life within their souls.

Once saved (eternal life received) always saved (eternal life kept forever).

[FormerLDS]

10 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Former -  Promise of Eternal Life - 1 John 2:24-26.

 

The eternal life which the Savior offers is a spiritual rebirth that happens during mortality.

The physical body will pay the price of sin and die, but, there is a promise given to those who have eternal life spiritually that one day their bodies will have that life too.  

Only in that sense is eternal life a promise (physically speaking). 

[FormerLDS]

9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

This is what the Apostle Paul said about the promises of Christ:  Ephesians 3: "3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
            4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
            5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
            6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Or this, from 1 Tim 4 "8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
            9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
            10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
            11 These things command and teach."

I think we are in good company if we believe in the promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ.  

I hear you, but I really don't think you comprehend the fact that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality.

The Jesus Christ of the CoJCoLDS can only offer the promise of eternal life during mortality.  

Read the passage!  "having promise of the life that now is". 

When is "now"?

[FormerLDS]

9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

1 John 2:24-26.  "24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
            25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

If anything this passage supports the fact that when we received the gift of eternal life it abides within us forever (v.27).  Once saved always saved.

He abides within me and I in Him - forever.  This is eternal life.