FormerLDS Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 16 hours ago, SamIam said: For myself, I am cautious about entering a stalemate of semantics and debate. If we were not talking about this particular subject but were simply looking for scriptures that describe groups that had been saved in Jesus Christ the verses provided would be received readily as wonderful examples of the many ways in which those who are saved might be referenced in scripture...which of course is not a cookie cutter formula always possessing the word "reward". Nonetheless the Colossians verses above do use the term reward within the context of what they risk losing should they be deceived: Please Note: Further once we establish that the Colossians are identified by Paul as those who have "therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord," we can explore other aspects of Paul's conversation with them realizing that they are a people that Paul considered saved: Thus in chapter 3 where we read Matching your stipulation of preference for the word "reward" it is here again used as a means of affirming that the Colossians are to receive the "reward" because they "serve the Lord." This is not an ambiguous potential he is describing but a "ye shall" not a "ye might". Now, here is an example of a set of verses that uses neither the term "reward" or "gift" but it would be very disingenuous of us to wrest the scriptures to any other expectation than that these to whom he speaks are considered saved at this point in time. Yet it follows the pattern established in multiple places that if one would remain saved they must remain servants of Christ. Please consider: 1.) Their state: They are partakers of the Heavenly calling through Christ (Verse 1,14) 2.) The caution: Don’t become hardened through sin. (Verse 12,13) 3.) The risk: “If” qualifies their state as being partakers in Christ IF they are steadfast until the end. (Verse 14) Again, there are several additional verses in Ephesians, 2 Peter, others in Hebrews, Philippians and so on. What is a fascinating study is that you can gauge Paul's perceptions of the groups of people he is talking to. Of these I have used for examples, he seems pleased with their conversion to Jesus Christ and simply provides cautions so that they can maintain their status as servants of the Lord. On the other hand when I read Romans, Paul seems a bit less secure in their state of being and it seems he is still looking for the true signs of conversion so that by comparison one can compare Paul to Paul and determine his state of mind towards those to whom he addresses. Romans, does not speak to me the same as the other examples and thus for me this further substantiates that he considered certain of those he taught as yet to be saved and others as fully such but needing to be watchful to maintain their reward. How can this be a debate about "semantics" whenthe Bible plainly states that eternal life is a "gift" not a "reward"? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "Rewards" are things given as the result of one's worthiness or efforts. "Gifts" are given freely and without payment or compensation. Both those who have eternal life and those who do not have eternal life will be given rewards according to their works while here on earth. Using your example, the Colossians who received eternal life during mortality received a "reward" according to their service for the Lord and the Colossians who did not receive eternal life during mortality received a "reward" of debt (Rom 4:3). All mankind will be given a "reward" according to their works, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the gift of "eternal life" friends.
Meerkat Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: How can this be a debate about "semantics" whenthe Bible plainly states that eternal life is a "gift" not a "reward"? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "Rewards" are things given as the result of one's worthiness or efforts. "Gifts" are given freely and without payment or compensation. Both those who have eternal life and those who do not have eternal life will be given rewards according to their works while here on earth. Using your example, the Colossians who received eternal life during mortality received a "reward" according to their service for the Lord and the Colossians who did not receive eternal life during mortality received a "reward" of debt (Rom 4:3). All mankind will be given a "reward" according to their works, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the gift of "eternal life" friends. Actually, it as a problem of semantics. I also understand that I view this differently than you do, but feel that it has no bearing on my salvation. I'm sorry I am unable to communicate more clearly than I have that as long as I am facing toward God, and repenting when I fail, I have eternal life now. And Jesus Christ will bridge the gap between my efforts and my shortcomings. But if I turn away from Jesus Christ and become an unrepentant murderer or adulterer and just don't want to live according to His teachings-- in other words, if I am facing the other way and don't see a need to repent, I can lose the great gift of living with Him in the Celestial Kingdom in eternity. Do you understand what I am saying? Many scriptures I and others have shared with you are clear on that point. Will you acknowledge that? I think you are misunderstanding the passages you are sharing with me because they aren't compatible with the many we have shared with you. You don't have to believe it. But if you don't understand what I am saying, it is a willful act, in my opinion. You keep asking the same question no matter what anybody says. I don't know why you would do that except that you either don't read what people are saying, or you refuse to consider what they are saying. You say you have Eternal Life? Great! I don't have a problem with that. That is between you and God. I say I have Eternal Life? I am comfortable with that also, under the terms I have described (AGAIN) here. Best of luck to you, FormerLDS. 3
FormerLDS Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Meerkat said: 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Those words are unambiguous. They clearly refute the idea that once saved, always saved. There are those who know the way of truth and righteousness but have chosen not to believe the truth just like Balaam and the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2 knew the way of righteousness but chose not to believe. These never received eternal life in the first place, hence they are referred to as dogs and pigs, both unclean animals of reproach and filth. Ultimately, a dog will always act like a dog unless it is made into a new creature.
FormerLDS Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Actually, it as a problem of semantics. I also understand that I view this differently than you do, but feel that it has no bearing on my salvation. I'm sorry I am unable to communicate more clearly than I have that as long as I am facing toward God, and repenting when I fail, I have eternal life now. And Jesus Christ will bridge the gap between my efforts and my shortcomings. But if I turn away from Jesus Christ and become an unrepentant murderer or adulterer and just don't want to live according to His teachings-- in other words, if I am facing the other way and don't see a need to repent, I can lose the great gift of living with Him in the Celestial Kingdom in eternity. Do you understand what I am saying? Many scriptures I and others have shared with you are clear on that point. Will you acknowledge that? I think you are misunderstanding the passages you are sharing with me because they aren't compatible with the many we have shared with you. You don't have to believe it. But if you don't understand what I am saying, it is a willful act, in my opinion. You keep asking the same question no matter what anybody says. I don't know why you would do that except that you either don't read what people are saying, or you refuse to consider what they are saying. You say you have Eternal Life? Great! I don't have a problem with that. That is between you and God. I say I have Eternal Life? I am comfortable with that also, under the terms I have described (AGAIN) here. Best of luck to you, FormerLDS. I'll make a deal with you right here in front of everyone. If you can show me plainly where LDS theology states that anyone can have eternal life right now - today - just like you claim and just like Jesus Christ tells us - then I'll repent and convert back to LDS theology. Got my Bishops phone number right here waiting for you or anyone else to show me. Very simple, and you have my word on that. Deal?
Meerkat Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I'll make a deal with you right here in front of everyone. If you can show me plainly where LDS theology states that anyone can have eternal life right now - today - just like you claim and just like Jesus Christ tells us - then I'll repent and convert back to LDS theology. Got my Bishops phone number right here waiting for you or anyone else to show me. Very simple, and you have my word on that. Deal? Answer that question, and you would be converted? I have your word you wouldn't have any other issues with former leadership, doctrine or practices? I think I'll leave your conversion between you and our merciful Father in Heaven, and stand on my prior comments. You also have the many comments and references of others when, if taken in context of the scriptures, give you the answer you are asking for here. I am truly okay with you believing what you want. Have a nice day!
FormerLDS Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Answer that question, and you would be converted? I have your word you wouldn't have any other issues with former leadership, doctrine or practices? I think I'll leave your conversion between you and our merciful Father in Heaven, and stand on my prior comments. You also have the many comments and references of others when, if taken in context of the scriptures, give you the answer you are asking for here. I am truly okay with you believing what you want. Have a nice day! Just show me where your church teaches what you claim to believe - that you have eternal life today, and you have my word that I'll convert back and leave. Forgive me, but if someone here has already done this, please be so kind as to paste below and that will suffice. Deal?
SamIam Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 44 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: How can this be a debate about "semantics" whenthe Bible plainly states that eternal life is a "gift" not a "reward"? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "Rewards" are things given as the result of one's worthiness or efforts. "Gifts" are given freely and without payment or compensation. Both those who have eternal life and those who do not have eternal life will be given rewards according to their works while here on earth. Using your example, the Colossians who received eternal life during mortality received a "reward" according to their service for the Lord and the Colossians who did not receive eternal life during mortality received a "reward" of debt (Rom 4:3). All mankind will be given a "reward" according to their works, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the gift of "eternal life" friends. My apologies, I thought you were honing in on the word "reward". However, If you prefer the "gift" as your chosen to validate your point, I can provide one of those as well. This one is particularly suitable for this conversation and I am sure that few will appreciate it as should you. Quote Hebrews 6:4-16 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 1.) Their state: Clearly these have received the promise of Jesus Christ. (Verse 4,5,9) 2.) The caution: Don’t be led away by the examples of the wicked. (Verse 6) 3.) The risk: They could fall away and not be able to be renewed unto repentence. (Verse 6) Frankly, I might say that you are caught up in defending a stance against what the scriptures clearly point to. However, perhaps the above reference to "gift" which if you note follows the same pattern as the several other examples I have provided. You can receive the gift, you can turn away from the gift and finally you can lose the gift. To not see the pattern is to strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel. Hopefully this example will resonate with you. 3
SamIam Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 30 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I'll make a deal with you right here in front of everyone. If you can show me plainly where LDS theology states that anyone can have eternal life right now - today - just like you claim and just like Jesus Christ tells us - then I'll repent and convert back to LDS theology. Got my Bishops phone number right here waiting for you or anyone else to show me. Very simple, and you have my word on that. Deal? From the LDS Bible Dictionary Calling and Election Righteous followers of Christ can become numbered among the elect who gain the assurance of exaltation. This calling and election begins with repentance and baptism. It becomes complete when they “press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end” (2 Ne. 31:19–20). The scriptures call this process making our calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:4–11; D&C 131:5–6). https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/calling-and-election?lang=eng 4
SamIam Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Just show me where your church teaches what you claim to believe - that you have eternal life today, and you have my word that I'll convert back and leave. Forgive me, but if someone here has already done this, please be so kind as to paste below and that will suffice. Deal? Do you mind sharing upon what points of doctrine you left the church?
FormerLDS Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, SamIam said: From the LDS Bible Dictionary Calling and Election Righteous followers of Christ can become numbered among the elect who gain the assurance of exaltation. This calling and election begins with repentance and baptism. It becomes complete when they “press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end” (2 Ne. 31:19–20). The scriptures call this process making our calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:4–11; D&C 131:5–6). https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/calling-and-election?lang=eng Is having the assurance of something the same thing as actually having it?
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Is having the assurance of something the same thing as actually having it? Actually, that scripture in Peter is very interesting. 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: It certainly seems to indicate that our salvation being "made sure", ie "actually having it" comes long after we exercise faith in Christ. In verse 1 Peter is speaking to believers, those who have accepted Christ, have faith in him. But in verse 10 he indicates that they still need to give diligence to make their calling and election sure, that they have to do the things in verse 5-8. And by the same token that according to verse 9 & 10, that these same believers who were purged of these sins by Christ's atonement who don't do the things he lists can still fall. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 28 minutes ago, SamIam said: My apologies, I thought you were honing in on the word "reward". However, If you prefer the "gift" as your chosen to validate your point, I can provide one of those as well. This one is particularly suitable for this conversation and I am sure that few will appreciate it as should you. 1.) Their state: Clearly these have received the promise of Jesus Christ. (Verse 4,5,9) 2.) The caution: Don’t be led away by the examples of the wicked. (Verse 6) 3.) The risk: They could fall away and not be able to be renewed unto repentence. (Verse 6) Frankly, I might say that you are caught up in defending a stance against what the scriptures clearly point to. However, perhaps the above reference to "gift" which if you note follows the same pattern as the several other examples I have provided. You can receive the gift, you can turn away from the gift and finally you can lose the gift. To not see the pattern is to strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel. Hopefully this example will resonate with you. It is impossible for those who repent of unbelief an have received the gift of eternal life to be renewed again unto that repentance of unbelief. Once you have been made new you cannot be made new a second time [irreversible]. Hence, the word "renew" always has to do with the new, sinless inward man - the spiritual man within that, once saved is always saved and can never perish. What does the scripture say? "If any man be in Christ, he is and new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 40 minutes ago, SamIam said: Do you mind sharing upon what points of doctrine you left the church? I have a lot more than 99 Thesis, but the concept of "Eternal Life" is certainly the single biggest factor in my decision. I did not have eternal life even though Jesus Christ plainly said that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. Knowing this, I had the words "Jesus Christ" written in stone on every single one of my congregational buildings, but he never gave anyone eternal life - not in this world anyway. You can't have the right gospel if you have the wrong Jesus Christ friends. For me, The Book of Mormon is another testament of another Jesus.
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: It certainly seems to indicate that our salvation being "made sure", ie "actually having it" comes long after we exercise faith in Christ. In verse 1 Peter is speaking to believers, those who have accepted Christ, have faith in him. But in verse 10 he indicates that they still need to give diligence to make their calling and election sure, that they have to do the things in verse 5-8. And by the same token that according to verse 9 & 10, that these same believers who were purged of these sins by Christ's atonement who don't do the things he lists can still fall. So the LDS concept of "having one's calling and election made sure" isn't quite so sure after all.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: So the LDS concept of "having one's calling and election made sure" isn't quite so sure after all. Agency is still an eternal law. As long as we can choose to break a law we can choose to fall. God doesn't force salvation on the wicked. 2
Meerkat Posted February 24, 2018 Author Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: For me, The Book of Mormon is another testament of another Jesus Based on your responses to Bible scriptures provided, most recently JLPROF'S 2 Peter 2:1:1 and SamLam's reference to Hebrews 6:4-16, you could very well be right. 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Is having the assurance of something the same thing as actually having it? Not if we are dealing with mere mortals. (I didn't really expect you to embrace church membership, despite your assurances.) But when we are dealing with our Creator, I believe that assurance IS the same thing as having it, if we endure in faith to the end. Edited February 24, 2018 by Meerkat
SamIam Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Is having the assurance of something the same thing as actually having it? I am staying biblical as that is what seems most acceptable to you. I refer you to: Quote Luke 21:33 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. One of the key facets of the ability to exercise faith is that we have to believe so many thing that are simply promises. Most will not tangibly touch or hold these promises in this life, though I believe certain things are possible. Nonetheless, an assurance from Christ would most certainly fall into the boundaries of this verse from Luke. If Christ assures it then it most certainly is to be as believed as any promise that you as a Christian find believable and upon which you hang your faith. It will be as Christ designates. 2
SamIam Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: So the LDS concept of "having one's calling and election made sure" isn't quite so sure after all. JLHProf's analysis is a touch lacking in the manner of emphasis. He may or may not be saying that he believes calling and election unattainable in this life. I am unable to ascertain. However, it seems possible that he is reading it as I do that though these to whom Peter speaks have repented and been cleansed of their sins and surely have accepted Jesus Christ, they still, as we have been saying all along have yet to achieve all that needs to be accomplished to achieve the highest gifts that Christ affords them that love him. However, while I am willing to accept that Peter is not saying that it must occur in this life that one makes his calling and election sure, I am not willing to interpret his statement as precluding that it can occur in this life. For review JLHPROF's comments here: 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Actually, that scripture in Peter is very interesting. It certainly seems to indicate that our salvation being "made sure", ie "actually having it" comes long after we exercise faith in Christ. In verse 1 Peter is speaking to believers, those who have accepted Christ, have faith in him. But in verse 10 he indicates that they still need to give diligence to make their calling and election sure, that they have to do the things in verse 5-8. And by the same token that according to verse 9 & 10, that these same believers who were purged of these sins by Christ's atonement who don't do the things he lists can still fall. Regardless, In the church we do teach that it is possible in this life. Reflect upon these words of Joseph Smith: Quote Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God, yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son. Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure, that they had part with Christ, and were joint heirs with him. They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure, and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightning’s flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble, and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. (HC 5:388-89.) (Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Burton -1977], 202.) I have a multitude of quotes on this subject but I suspect this one adequate to validate that we see the potential of calling and election as a possibility for one still in the mortal state. This is not to say it is frequent or common in any way simply that it can be. I believe Peter's emphasis to be likewise. Edited February 24, 2018 by SamIam
SamIam Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I have a lot more than 99 Thesis, but the concept of "Eternal Life" is certainly the single biggest factor in my decision. I did not have eternal life even though Jesus Christ plainly said that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. Knowing this, I had the words "Jesus Christ" written in stone on every single one of my congregational buildings, but he never gave anyone eternal life - not in this world anyway. You can't have the right gospel if you have the wrong Jesus Christ friends. For me, The Book of Mormon is another testament of another Jesus. So then I take it that you have become a leader in another Christian denomination? Frankly, I am okay with that and genuinely feel that anyone you bring closer to Christ is a blessing and to be encouraged. If it is true that you are pastoring other congregations, it is unfortunate that you have taken as part of your message the need to cast stones at the LDS church. It dilutes the sincerity of a message of love to find it wrapped in the torn wrappings of previous gifts unreceived. I am not familiar with a 99 Thesis, perhaps you could refer me to a link. Or perhaps you are referring to Martin Luther's Ninety-five Theses or Disputation on the Power of Indulgences. Either way that lacks specificity and I genuinely do seek to understand the things that cause people to rethink their membership in the LDS church. I am not clear on the details of your grievance with the LDS perspective on eternal life. Perhaps a bit more detail would enable to more clearly understand your concerns. I'm neither much persuaded by pithy cliches about our believing in "another Jesus". It sounds catchy but how do you validate such a thing? My Christ, or my Jesus if you will, suffered in Gethsemane, and then died hanging on a cross. He paid a particular price for my sins. I believe that you believe in a probable similar fashion. It has always been interesting to me that so many of the worlds Christian religions can teach divergent materials from each other but in unison with one voice unite to denounce the LDS church. What cause would bind them together in such a voice? It makes little sense to me. Nonetheless, I wish you the best of success of bringing any who know not our Lord and Savior to the highest degree of knowledge of him that you have to offer. It is a good work to be engaged in. 4
SamIam Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: It is impossible for those who repent of unbelief an have received the gift of eternal life to be renewed again unto that repentance of unbelief. Once you have been made new you cannot be made new a second time [irreversible]. Hence, the word "renew" always has to do with the new, sinless inward man - the spiritual man within that, once saved is always saved and can never perish. What does the scripture say? "If any man be in Christ, he is and new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 Well, these are great stretches of interpretation for me. It will serve little purpose to point you back to the Scriptures in Hebrew's and ask you to reexamine them with a bit less license and turning of words but what you have done here makes them read as something entirely different from what they say. It is unfortunate because when we do such it precludes an honest interaction and seems more an act of posturing to defend a preferred bias over obvious expectations of scripture. Joseph Smith is stated to have made the following observation which I consider profound having observed it many times: Quote The birth here spoken of [John 3:3] was not the gift of the Holy Ghost, which was promised after baptism, but was a portion of the Spirit, which attended the preaching of the gospel by the elders of the Church. The people wondered why they had not previously understood the plain declarations of scripture, as explained by the elder, as they had read them hundreds of times. When they read the Bible it was a new book to them. This was being born again to see the kingdom of God. They were not in it, but could see it from the outside, which they could not do until the Spirit of the Lord took the veil from their eyes. It was a change of heart, but not of state; they were converted, but were yet in their sins. Although Cornelius [Acts 10] had seen an holy angel, and on the preaching of Peter the Holy Ghost was poured out upon him and his household, they were only born again to see the kingdom of God. Had they not been baptized afterwards they would not have been saved.(Joseph Smith, as reported in "Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith," by Daniel Tyler, Juvenile Instructor 27:93-94 [February 1, 1892]) For reference this is the scripture that Joseph is speaking to: Quote John 3:3-5 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The process of coming to understand the Gospel or even Jesus Christ was and always has been predicted upon the degree of the Holy Spirit one possessed at the time of consideration, such that as he states one could read the same scriptures hundreds of times and lacking even the degree of the Holy Ghost that accompanies a conversion process would not see them clearly, not having their eyes opened to see the kingdom of God. For the clarity of the verses we have examined in this discussion and the more than obvious patterns of each illustration of accepting Christ, but being mindful and diligent so that one might not lose what was a precious gift of understanding by bad choices, It amazes me how sometimes some prefer to stand by a bias of false interpretation to maintain the supposed opposition to another group who professes Jesus Christ and him crucified. I do not know why you must consider us your adversaries when it should be otherwise. 3
Meerkat Posted February 24, 2018 Author Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) On 2/12/2018 at 2:47 PM, hope_for_things said: as soon as it was taken literally by Christianity as a mechanism to compel obedience and control, then it has been abused in very bad ways. I don't believe Christianity should have ever been used to compel anyone. I think force is part of our human nature, or "natural man" that we are placed on earth to overcome in ourselves. But if someone wants to take over a neighboring country by force, It seems like religion can be a powerful unifying agent to energize the troops. I believe such tactics are a corruption of God's message. Isaiah said "16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:16-18. Reason, not force is God's way. The Apostle Peter said "12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." 1 Peter 3:13-17 For someone who wants to compel someone, or a country to do something, one reason is as good as another, be it a holy war, or weapons of mass destruction. It is a failure of reason at some level, and a straw man to stir up the troops, imo. Such corruptions shouldn't be blamed on Christ's message. But that doesn't discount your statement that "Christianity has been abused in very bad ways." I agree with you that metaphor is a powerful tool to explain the meaning of life. That is why Jesus used parables when He taught. I believe our lives are full of metaphors that can reveal God to us. We also see the effects of an evil influence in the world. Domestic abuse (even in religious homes,) violence, addictions-- the world is a mess. I attend an addiction recovery family support group sponsored by the LDS Church. There is a prayer that we read every week in our group (the Serenity Prayer,) that brings a measure of peace in what can be for some families, a relatively tortured existence now and then. I think it's a prayer that can help put earth life in a good perspective: Serenity Prayer - Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971) GOD grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time; enjoying one moment at a time; accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it; trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His Will; that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen. And here is an article with metaphor that I have found very helpful in my Christian walk. I hope you enjoy it, Hope for things. It's very good when you get past the first minute or thereabouts: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1988/04/shepherds-of-israel?lang=eng Edited February 24, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Flyonthewall Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 To me, the words of Christ in the parable of the sower, in addition to what everyone else has said here, refutes everything about OSAS. The majority of the words of Christ become false doctrine if OSAS is true. 3
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted February 24, 2018 Popular Post Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, FormerLDS said: There are those who know the way of truth and righteousness but have chosen not to believe the truth just like Balaam and the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2 knew the way of righteousness but chose not to believe. These never received eternal life in the first place, hence they are referred to as dogs and pigs, both unclean animals of reproach and filth. Ultimately, a dog will always act like a dog unless it is made into a new creature. And there it is, in black and white. The OSAS Get Out of Jail Free card, the unassailable redoubt, the hidden escape panel, the ploy that trumps all opposition, the irrefutable response.... If someone says or believes he is saved but subsequently falls away, then he wasn’t really saved in the first place. If that is true, then one can never know he has really been saved. Edited February 24, 2018 by Bernard Gui 5
Anakin7 Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 Response to FormerLDS on the never early saved argument -http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/notsaved.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian
Anakin7 Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 On February 16, 2018 at 10:52 PM, Anakin7 said: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/james51920.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/pairsoftruth.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sixtimes.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesus-es.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/anothergospel.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ues.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/question.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/assure.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreacg.org/workssalvation.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternallife.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/forsake.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/separate.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john637.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wayne.htm A few of the above links may not be currently working but many do. The above list should cover the OSAS issue. Sorry so long and many links I just wanted to cover a # of OSAS Arguments. May True Grace be accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained,received, held on to by True Faith - pistis in greek = allegiance, commitment,confidence, devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus which all of the aforementioned definitions are covenant words. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Still awaiting FormerLDS responses to the above response from a non LDS Christian on the OSAS topic. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
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