Meerkat Posted February 27, 2018 Author Posted February 27, 2018 On 2/26/2018 at 8:34 AM, FormerLDS said: If I could show you from the scripture that is not the case, would you believe? Only if you would not ignore the overwhelming volume of scriptures that refute your position. Look at the weight of the scriptures throughout this thread. You don't address them. You don't provide a counter position from the scriptures. You say "If I could show you from the scriptures..." Actions speak louder than words. Why have you NOT shown us after all this time?
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Only if you would not ignore the overwhelming volume of scriptures that refute your position. Look at the weight of the scriptures throughout this thread. You don't address them. You don't provide a counter position from the scriptures. You say "If I could show you from the scriptures..." Actions speak louder than words. Why have you NOT shown us after all this time? He won't do it. He completely ignores any Biblical scripture that contradicts his OSAS view and sticks to prooftexting a few verses. Makes discussion pointless. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Let me guess, any doctrinal points of view that disagree with LDS theology require additional "context" in order to fully comprehend the "true meaning" right? Beats prooftexting.
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, pogi said: Well that is interesting how things are unfolding. It appears you are offering me nothing more than an "assurance". I am disappointed, I thought there was a million dollar stack of cash that I could examine. Remember when you said this: Quote Honesty challenge: If someone offered you a lottery ticket with only the "assurance" that it was worth a million dollars or if they offered you a million dollar stack of cash, which one would you take? If you can't show me the money, but can only offer me an assurance that it is real, the invisible million dollar stack of cash offer is becoming increasingly less appealing! I think I am leaning more toward the lottery ticket now - at least the lottery ticket is tangible. I can examine it and handle it before believing. I can feel its seed swell in my breast, grow, and bring forth good fruit. You don't have to describe the money. Just tell me how you know that you have it. How do you know that you are holding the million dollars in your hands? Can you see it, feel it, taste it, touch it? Or, are you simply relying on the "assurance" of the Bible without actually experiencing it for yourself? Have you actually seen the million dollars or are you simply trusting that it is in your invisible bank account? I offer you the words of Jesus Christ. How you personally interpret and value His words is your choice. When I look at my spiritual bank statement, it says I have "eternal life" right there in black and white. "He that believeth in me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 I have the knowledge that He knows me because He lives within me. My name is written in the Lambs book of life, and I am forever sealed by the blood of the lamb. As a Latter-day Saint, all I had was a I.O.U. The best my savior could offer was a conditional promise note. Those who do not have eternal life and try to work in order to somehow obtain His gift of eternal life will only receive debt, not life. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 4 hours ago, bluebell said: The parable of the sower teaches that the seed can wither and die after growing for a while, not because the seed wasn't good but because the soil wasn't what it needed to be to sustain it. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. Please tell me, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies? My Bible doesn't say that. One seed receives life and one does not. There are those who have eternal life and those who do not. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Then why do you reject the words of Jesus Christ? John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Believe me, I do understand the point here. What Christ is saying is not what you have been taught to think He's saying. Christ is referring to 100% sinless perfection through His blood - himself. He's not telling you to obey the 10 Commandments, like you have been taught. Those who have eternal life (within - the soul), have HIS sinless perfection within. I can therefore say that I have met His "be ye therefore perfect" requirement because He met that for me when I chose to believe in Him [i.e. and no longer my own perfection]. I hope that makes sense friends. All you have to do is believe His words. Jesus Christ is saying "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them [not some of them but ALL of them with perfection], he it is that loveth me". Do you see and hear this and can you understand with your heart?
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yet Matthew 7:21-23 doesn't specify what the will of the Father is. However those verses do refer directly to the verses previous which are a discussion on works. And Christ in Matthew 7 is extolling the necessity of doing good works. Christ gives a whole bunch of commanded works in Matthew 7 and then in John 14 states that those who keep his commandments are the ones he and the Father will love. Belief in the words of Jesus Christ is a requirement. All of them, taken in context and not used in isolation to mean something different than intended. Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: He gave us all eternal life. Scripture says none are lost except perdition. So all us Mormons will be saved by Christ's sacrifice and receive eternal life the same as everyone else. The LDS Jesus Christ does not give anyone eternal life during mortality. Look it up. He would have you leave this world without eternal life and hoping that you have done enough to somehow be worthy enough to obtain that life. The rejected of the savior were rejected because they left this world never without ever receiving the Savior's free gift of eternal life. Their faith was in Jesus Christ plus their miraculous works and best efforts.
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, pogi said: Are you just smarter than everyone else or something? Better reading comprehension? Is that how this works? Those who are the smartest and have the best reading comprehension are saved? Because the Bible plainly says something else to me. Why is your perspective better then mine? Do we need to compare IQ's? How then do you interpret "He cannot sin"?
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) One aspect of an individual "christian" in regards to - "Believing" in/on Jesus [Believing by the way is an ongoing action in greek] is obedience to stay in the Grace Covenant [Walking In The Light of His - Jesus Christ Atoning Blood Sacrifice = His "True Grace"] - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40 How's that going? You've seen Jesus? Pretty impressive. You know, since "you either believe what the Bible plainly says or you do not." Edited February 27, 2018 by JLHPROF
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 From Initial to Final Salvation in objective evangelical thought - not just talk but walk - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm Anakin7
Meerkat Posted February 27, 2018 Author Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) On 2/26/2018 at 2:27 PM, FormerLDS said: What does the scripture say friends? There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life. There are those who see, but will not see the truth and hear, but chose not to understand (v10). Satan's ministers are "ministers of righteousness". Would you say "commiting adultery or any other sin" is something a "minister of righteousness" would do? They "crept in unaware" because they did NOT do those things outwardly. They cared for the sick. Gave money to the poor. They abstained from evil. They cast out devils, prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ. They carried their bibles and went to church faithfully. They loved the savior outwardly, but denied Him inwardly. They preached a false gospel. They did not have eternal life within them. FormerLDS, frustrating as it has been to listen to you, I need to thank you for challenging me and most all on this thread including SamLam, the non-LDS Christian fathers that he referenced, Anarkin7 and his valuable links, Bluebell, Calm, JLH Prof and all others who have contributed to this conversation. The value is that it has driven me (and probably the rest of us) into the Scriptures and other links and comments left on this thread. I feel like it is helping me become a better person. So it has been a valuable exercise for me. You are familiar with the dilemma of Judas Iscariot. He was there at the beginning of Christ's ministry. He saw the miracles. He was a devoted follower of Jesus Christ. Do you believe Jesus would have chose a non-believer as one of His Twelve? Matthew 10:1 clearly states: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits to cast them out, and to heal all manner of disease." Then in verses 2 through 4, He names them all including Judas Iscariot. In Matt. Chapter 12:22, a man possessed with a devil was brought to Jesus to have the devil cast out. "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city of house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God (which power he gave to His Disciples including Judas Iscariot,) then the kingdom of God is come unto you." Do you believe the Lord would have given a child of Satan the power to cast out devils? Praying to know Judas' replacement, the remaining Eleven included this, recorded in Acts 1:25 "That he (the new apostle,) may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." It would appear to me to be a twist of those words to believe that Judas did not fall due to his transgression. But, I am sure you will find a way. In your most recent comment, it appears as if you are saying that those who cast out devils and prophesy in the name of Jesus Christ are, by definition, Satan's ministers. Would you be surprised to hear Jesus' response to your thesis: "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he foloweth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." What that passage tells me, FormerLDS, is that Jesus Christ approves of good people of differing faiths who are making a sincere attempt to accomplish His work, in His name. Therefore, we should try to fellowship with each other and actually learn how to be more grateful and better children of our loving Heavenly Father together. We shouldn't be forbidding people who want to be righteous from being righteous. We should be grateful for the contribution they make to our lives and the greater good in society. Your comments (above) communicate to me that if a person BELIEVES in Jesus Christ, AND in the importance of doing good in thought, word and deed, that is evidence that a person is a follower of Satan and does not have eternal life. Jesus taught in Matthew 5:27-30 that it is not enough to keep the commandments. We must be righteous and even control our thoughts or be cast into hell. You are very big on what the literal words say. Read verses 27 through 30. What do those words mean to you? Will you read them? No offense intended, but I doubt it, based on experience here. But you know the saying, "Hope springs eternal!" Best of luck to you Former LDS. And thanks again for an interesting scripture study. Edited February 27, 2018 by Meerkat 3
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 FormerLDS your future sins are not automatically forgiven http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm Anakin7 1
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) Meerkat, JLHPROF, [and others] I would Invite you all to raed the following from some non LDS Christians which indirectly responds to FormerLDS constant arrows and darts thrown in our direction. a few minor things we may not agree on but a lot we do - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/gospel-of-jesus.html http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html , If the last link does not work type in in manually. May True Grace Be with All. Anakin7 Edited February 27, 2018 by Anakin7
Meerkat Posted February 27, 2018 Author Posted February 27, 2018 56 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Believe me, I do understand the point here. What Christ is saying is not what you have been taught to think He's saying. Christ is referring to 100% sinless perfection through His blood - himself. He's not telling you to obey the 10 Commandments, like you have been taught. Those who have eternal life (within - the soul), have HIS sinless perfection within. I can therefore say that I have met His "be ye therefore perfect" requirement because He met that for me when I chose to believe in Him [i.e. and no longer my own perfection]. I hope that makes sense friends. All you have to do is believe His words. Jesus Christ is saying "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them [not some of them but ALL of them with perfection], he it is that loveth me". Do you see and hear this and can you understand with your heart? May I ask you, Former LDS: If you are perfect now, do you treat everyone with perfect love? Do you ever get angry? Do you ever get upset with a family member for any reason? Are you perfectly honest in all your dealings? If not, what does your statement "Jesus Christ is saying "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them [not some of them but ALL of them with perfection], he it is that loveth me" mean? Are you saying that those who profess Christ, but don't keep His commandments with perfection, don't love Him? Wait, are you saying that Christ can keep all the commandments perfectly in your heart, but it is not required of you to actually attempt to keep them in your physical body, because that would be too hard? Which commandments are the ones too hard to keep? Thou shalt have no other Gods before me? Thou shalt not kill? Thou shalt not steal,? Thou shalt not bear false witness? Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet? Seems to me that, with a minimal effort, we can learn to obey. When we fail, we can repent. That's why Jesus came because He loves you, and wants to teach you and all of us how to become a better person, in my opinion. And that's not a bad thing. 1
pogi Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I offer you the words of Jesus Christ. How you personally interpret and value His words is your choice. When I look at my spiritual bank statement, it says I have "eternal life" right there in black and white. "He that believeth in me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 I have the knowledge that He knows me because He lives within me. My name is written in the Lambs book of life, and I am forever sealed by the blood of the lamb. As a Latter-day Saint, all I had was a I.O.U. The best my savior could offer was a conditional promise note. Those who do not have eternal life and try to work in order to somehow obtain His gift of eternal life will only receive debt, not life. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Right. There is no million dollar stack of cash that I can evaluate...only assurances. Funny thing is, we both get our assurances from the same place...the Bible. You don't need to offer me the words of Jesus Christ, I already have, and live them. They are alive in my heart and not simply black and white assurances on a life-less page.
FormerLDS Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pogi said: Right. There is no million dollar stack of cash that I can evaluate...only assurances. Funny thing is, we both get our assurances from the same place...the Bible. You don't need to offer me the words of Jesus Christ, I already have, and live them. They are alive in my heart and not simply black and white assurances on a life-less page. Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the words of Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ assures me that I have eternal life. LDS theology assures you that you do not have eternal life. Funny thing is, we both get our assurances from the same place...the Bible. Edited February 27, 2018 by FormerLDS
Meerkat Posted February 27, 2018 Author Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the words of Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ assures me that I have eternal life. LDS theology assures you that you do not have eternal life. Funny thing is, we both get our assurances from the same place...the Bible. That isn't true FormerLDS, and you know it. You have to ignore the statements of love for Christ and their fellow beings, and the life energy they have put in to responding to your statements, which you ignore making that statement. If the Bible tells you you have eternal life, God bless you. If the Bible and LDS theology tells me that I have eternal life on condition of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and enduring to the end, what difference does that make to you? If your religion helps you love God and your fellow man more, and encourages honesty, charity and becoming a more Christ like person, great. If our religion does the same, is that not also a good thing? Or is it a bad thing? Edited February 27, 2018 by Meerkat 1
pogi Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: How then do you interpret "He cannot sin"? Answer my question first before asking another. That is how proper etiquette works. 1
pogi Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the words of Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ assures me that I have eternal life. LDS theology assures you that you do not have eternal life. Funny thing is, we both get our assurances from the same place...the Bible. Your interpretation of Christ's words gives you a false assurance of some invisible and intangible "million dollars". This false assurance causes you to act in sin and pretend as if it is no sin at all ("Beware of those who call evil good" - Isaiah 5:20). My assurance is tangible from the active Word of the Lord on the fleshy tablets of my heart. It is not some lifeless ink written in the corrupt tongue of man, to be misinterpreted on a page. Edited February 27, 2018 by pogi 1
Meerkat Posted February 28, 2018 Author Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Anakin7 said: FormerLDS your future sins are not automatically forgiven http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm Anakin7 This would be good for every member of this thread to listen to, if they have the time. There is a power and influence that comes from speaking from the scriptures in confidence and humility. This brother, Dan Corner, not a member of the LDS Church, makes a compelling case that eternal security is a heresy. It is a lie. He played a quotation from Pastor Charles Stanley, who said "Once we are saved, murder-- Forgiven. Adultery-- forgiven. Speeding tickets-- Forgiven." This is the scripture we all have heard justifying Eternal Security: 28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." What is ignored in that verse is the clarifying verse before it, verse 27: "27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." What does that imply? Keeping Christ's teachings. Knowing them and doing them. That reminds me of another one that has a context that alters the popular Eternal Security meaning: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9. The verse we don't see is verse 10, which clarifies the meaning: "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eternal security requires faithfulness and enduring to the end only. The Scriptures, in context, do not teach a doctrine that all that is required is belief with no effort on our part. Thanks for the link, Anakin7. Edited February 28, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) You are welcome Meerkat. Edited February 28, 2018 by Anakin7 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 8 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Again, I never said those who fall away after being saved were never really saved in the first place. Just to remind you of what you said.... Quote There are those who know the way of truth and righteousness but have chosen not to believe the truth just like Balaam and the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2 knew the way of righteousness but chose not to believe. These never received eternal life in the first place, hence they are referred to as dogs and pigs, both unclean animals of reproach and filth. 8 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Let me guess, any doctrinal points of view that disagree with LDS theology require additional "context" in order to fully comprehend the "true meaning" right? Sometimes context is important. According to this, prayer is useless, because God won’t listen. Quote When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you;even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. 1
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